Windsor Spitfires 2021 Offseason Thread

[hockeylegend11]

Do you know what's required to run a successful business where the entire model revolves on the public willing to support your business?

If owners won't support the business why would they expect fans/patrons/customers too?

Maybe hosting a Memorial Cup tournament that wasn't sold out would give them some indication as to what fans think of how this franchise had been run for a number of years before it and maybe the shrinking attendance numbers would give an indication of how fans think it's currently being run.

The owners pay the bills and reap the rewards or pay the losses based on fan response to the product.

Die hard fans whose only concern is having a team will always support them but those care about the product or a casual fan who wants a return for their time, money and support won't accept a second rate product.

Reputation is everything and a decade or so with only one bot of success that came the hard way is a franchise that shouldn't simply expect support but it's one that should realize it needs to earn that support.

Wow, the easiest things to understand are so difficult. If this were any other business would you continue to support it if their product let down time and time again?

Actually in response to your last paragraph I would support their
product because they did win not just a round or 2 then done but a championship
Then when that happens a rebuild occurs sometimes a year or so later then 3 or 4 years in this case 5 or 6 because of covid,the absence of draft picks the season of and the season after winning I think more then anything contributed to a bit though not as much as thought it might as year 3 showed dramatic improvement in most areas team and individual, ie scoring almost a goal per game more,PP went from 17th to 5th,PK was static 17th and 18th,though must admit having a goalie like Dipietro for a year after most everyone all the stars were gone from Cup team made a high difference re the PK,goalie is your best PK alot of times.
That's why I dont feel bad so much over 11 years unless the good is equally said,on this site usually ignored but never given the attention as the negative
For me bottom line 5 championships 3 national, 2 league in the last 11 years when we had post season most in the league btw superceded constant,persistent negativity.
Toss in 3 Mem Cups,regardless how the last one was achieved, which again is most in the league combined ,for same time period.
No wonder when players are drafted they mention to a player how to he drafted by a successful team,they dont see 1st or 2nd rd. eliminations, they see or hear about what's in the rafters
And for me the hockey future as a team looks like,I am concerned about the rest,including viability to survive heavy financial burden, not fear mongering , truth,big difference

 

[FiveHoleo]

If i want a cheeseburger, I'll buy one regardless of how savvy and respectful of the cheeseburger fans a restaurant's ownership may or may not be. Same with junior hockey if I want to watch a game. It doesn't matter.

 

[windsor7]

Actually in response to your last paragraph I would support their
product because they did win not just a round or 2 then done but a championship
Then when that happens a rebuild occurs sometimes a year or so later then 3 or 4 years in this case 5 or 6 because of covid,the absence of draft picks the season of and the season after winning I think more then anything contributed to a bit though not as much as thought it might as year 3 showed dramatic improvement in most areas team and individual, ie scoring almost a goal per game more,PP went from 17th to 5th,PK was static 17th and 18th,though must admit having a goalie like Dipietro for a year after most everyone all the stars were gone from Cup team made a high difference re the PK,goalie is your best PK alot of times.
That's why I dont feel bad so much over 11 years unless the good is equally said,on this site usually ignored but never given the attention as the negative
For me bottom line 5 championships 3 national, 2 league in the last 11 years when we had post season most in the league btw superceded constant,persistent negativity.
Toss in 3 Mem Cups,regardless how the last one was achieved, which again is most in the league combined ,for same time period.
No wonder when players are drafted they mention to a player how to he drafted by a successful team,they dont see 1st or 2nd rd. eliminations, they see or hear about what's in the rafters
And for me the hockey future as a team looks like,I am concerned about the rest,including viability to survive heavy financial burden, not fear mongering , truth,big difference

Take away the 2 or 3 years n u have...

 

[OHLTG]

We're kidding ourselves if we think ownership plays zero part in how fans react to a product. If the owners put little-to-no effort in, that will get around town, just like it did in the latter part of Riolo's era. (though, full credit to Riolo for keeping the team in town!!) The STH want to see ownership care; I've heard that many times over the last couple of years. The hardcore fans will go, likely regardless of who owns the club, but they still want to see effort from management. That was one reason people loved Rychel/Boughner; those guys cared and it showed. Cypher Systems Group needs to show the fans that they're going to be involved this season. The fans know very little about them and, after the last decade of hands-on ownership, that cannot continue.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Do you know what's required to run a successful business where the entire model revolves on the public willing to support your business?

If owners won't support the business why would they expect fans/patrons/customers too?

Maybe hosting a Memorial Cup tournament that wasn't sold out would give them some indication as to what fans think of how this franchise had been run for a number of years before it and maybe the shrinking attendance numbers would give an indication of how fans think it's currently being run.

The owners pay the bills and reap the rewards or pay the losses based on fan response to the product.

Die hard fans whose only concern is having a team will always support them but those care about the product or a casual fan who wants a return for their time, money and support won't accept a second rate product.

Reputation is everything and a decade or so with only one bot of success that came the hard way is a franchise that shouldn't simply expect support but it's one that should realize it needs to earn that support.

Wow, the easiest things to understand are so difficult. If this were any other business would you continue to support it if their product let down time and time again?

Terrific support. Organizations make their money on the backs of sth. That's guaranteed money regardless if they attend or not. If individuals are concerned about the financial viability of a franchise moving forward that's based upon how many sth you have. If people are concerned ask the question why did we just have the lowest number of sth's since they moved to WFCU?? There could be a myriad of reasons and no doubt for some it would boil down to ownership. The success of an organization happens from the top down. Ownership decides how much they spend on coaching staff, scouting staff etc..

Look no further to across the river. Why doesn't anybody go to see the Wings or Tigers?? Maybe because they're owned by Chris who's been peeling things back for years and he doesn't invest in the franchise. Spits have cut down staff, willing to play with fewer than the max players. All this isn't just pure luck it's by design. Not investing in your product and then the product is poor the fans won't come out.

Spits can control everything they want it's estimated that residents in this province have banked between 6-8 billion dollars in discretionary spending dollars. So of that is held right in this area so it's up to the owners if they want to invest in this product or not.

 

[member 71782]

Actually in response to your last paragraph I would support their
product because they did win not just a round or 2 then done but a championship
Then when that happens a rebuild occurs sometimes a year or so later then 3 or 4 years in this case 5 or 6 because of covid,the absence of draft picks the season of and the season after winning I think more then anything contributed to a bit though not as much as thought it might as year 3 showed dramatic improvement in most areas team and individual, ie scoring almost a goal per game more,PP went from 17th to 5th,PK was static 17th and 18th,though must admit having a goalie like Dipietro for a year after most everyone all the stars were gone from Cup team made a high difference re the PK,goalie is your best PK alot of times.
That's why I dont feel bad so much over 11 years unless the good is equally said,on this site usually ignored but never given the attention as the negative
For me bottom line 5 championships 3 national, 2 league in the last 11 years when we had post season most in the league btw superceded constant,persistent negativity.
Toss in 3 Mem Cups,regardless how the last one was achieved, which again is most in the league combined ,for same time period.
No wonder when players are drafted they mention to a player how to he drafted by a successful team,they dont see 1st or 2nd rd. eliminations, they see or hear about what's in the rafters
And for me the hockey future as a team looks like,I am concerned about the rest,including viability to survive heavy financial burden, not fear mongering , truth,big difference

And you think the casual fans are satisfied with missing the playoffs or getting knocked out in the first round, those years that bookend that last championship?

If so where is the sold out building?

In a region of around 400 000 people they have sold out the less than 7 000 seat building maybe once after 2011 including 2017.They haven't averaged 5 000 fans for a year since 2012 or 2013. That doesn't sound like a franchise that has the support of the fanbase.

What you want or see as positive 4% or so of the population seems to agree with. If you want to talk STHs it's less than that and the number continues to drop.

If you want to compare it to 2008/09 to 2010/11 they have about half the STHs now than they did back then not including the waiting list for STHs back then.

That's a huge drop in support and interest.

Hardcore fans will always be there in one way or another but even in 2016/17 with a 2/3 full building most nights I always knew people who were giving away tickets they were given for free and they had no takers. People who went religiously a few years earlier because of what they saw as a product that wasn't worth their time.

Negative? Sure but that was the response in the community and among many previously dedicated fans and former STHs.

Knew someone who had a friend that worked shifts and whenever their friend couldn't go would give him the tickets to use or give away. He never went once, was a big fan at one time and only found someone to take them once.

Attendance and support has gone down quite a bit since then.

Players etc as you say may look up at the rafters but people who pay the bills, the fans look on the ice.

 

[member 71782]

If i want a cheeseburger, I'll buy one regardless of how savvy and respectful of the cheeseburger fans a restaurant's ownership may or may not be. Same with junior hockey if I want to watch a game. It doesn't matter.

No one is telling you not to watch a game or how you should support the team.

The comment should have been simple enough to understand, if people don't support a business that relies on public support then it doesn't matter what a few people will do a business that has limited and dwindling support won't survive.

If you went to a restaurant to buy a cheeseburger and it wasn't properly cooked and you ended up sick would you go back? If the restaurant has a reputation for serving undercooked food or poor service would you continue to go back? Just to prove others can't tell you what to think?

Or would you get tired of not getting your money's worth from a place that didn't seem to care about the product they serve?

All of us "negative" people who some think hate this team follow everything with this team, spend our time in these endless debates because its fun. None of us have anything better to do with our time then sit here giving opinions about how things could improve, discussing the latest news or moves etc.

Our opinion seems to be in line with that of a lot of former STHs, fans and casual observers of this team than those who think everything is great and it's the fault of the fans this team hasn't been supported for putting out a mediocre product.

As someone who was a former STH, a fan since I was a kid in the old Tier II days and as someone who grew up getting to know a lot of people around the organization I can assure you it's no fun putting up with a mediocre product and when things are run poorly I'll point it out but that doesn't make me any less of fan, it simply means I have higher expectations then some and don't think making excuses or blaming the fans will fix the problems.

 

[windsor7]

No one is telling you not to watch a game or how you should support the team.

The comment should have been simple enough to understand, if people don't support a business that relies on public support then it doesn't matter what a few people will do a business that has limited and dwindling support won't survive.

If you went to a restaurant to buy a cheeseburger and it wasn't properly cooked and you ended up sick would you go back? If the restaurant has a reputation for serving undercooked food or poor service would you continue to go back? Just to prove others can't tell you what to think?

Or would you get tired of not getting your money's worth from a place that didn't seem to care about the product they serve?

All of us "negative" people who some think hate this team follow everything with this team, spend our time in these endless debates because its fun. None of us have anything better to do with our time then sit here giving opinions about how things could improve, discussing the latest news or moves etc.

Our opinion seems to be in line with that of a lot of former STHs, fans and casual observers of this team than those who think everything is great and it's the fault of the fans this team hasn't been supported for putting out a mediocre product.

As someone who was a former STH, a fan since I was a kid in the old Tier II days and as someone who grew up getting to know a lot of people around the organization I can assure you it's no fun putting up with a mediocre product and when things are run poorly I'll point it out but that doesn't make me any less of fan, it simply means I have higher expectations then some and don't think making excuses or blaming the fans will fix the problems.

Well said

 

[OHLTG]

We shouldn't blame the attendance on JUST the records, though. There are several factors involved (that I've personally heard); some the league is responsible for, some the Spits are responsible for. Does winning cure all? Not necessarily.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

No one is telling you not to watch a game or how you should support the team.

The comment should have been simple enough to understand, if people don't support a business that relies on public support then it doesn't matter what a few people will do a business that has limited and dwindling support won't survive.

If you went to a restaurant to buy a cheeseburger and it wasn't properly cooked and you ended up sick would you go back? If the restaurant has a reputation for serving undercooked food or poor service would you continue to go back? Just to prove others can't tell you what to think?

Or would you get tired of not getting your money's worth from a place that didn't seem to care about the product they serve?

All of us "negative" people who some think hate this team follow everything with this team, spend our time in these endless debates because its fun. None of us have anything better to do with our time then sit here giving opinions about how things could improve, discussing the latest news or moves etc.

Our opinion seems to be in line with that of a lot of former STHs, fans and casual observers of this team than those who think everything is great and it's the fault of the fans this team hasn't been supported for putting out a mediocre product.

As someone who was a former STH, a fan since I was a kid in the old Tier II days and as someone who grew up getting to know a lot of people around the organization I can assure you it's no fun putting up with a mediocre product and when things are run poorly I'll point it out but that doesn't make me any less of fan, it simply means I have higher expectations then some and don't think making excuses or blaming the fans will fix the problems.

Good post. The cheeseburger analogy falls short when you can run off a list of numerous burger places, heck even some places that don't advertise burgers sell burgers. Last time I checked there are double figure junior hockey franchises in Windsor.

If I have a bad burger at a place I will go to another place. If there is a mediocre junior hockey team where I live am I going to keep going back?? Can I go to another junior hockey game within 30-40 minutes.

Dedicating money on a product that has a .520 win % over 600+ games doesn't deserve unwavered loyalty.

Was a STH for 16 years and just decided to go in another direction. Getting broadcasts in HD was a huge thing for me, not having to hustle to the arena after leaving work after 6 for a 7pm isn't great. The selection of food at the arena was your basic arena food and doing that 30+ times a year can be frustrating.

It's like anything in life when you have a business you want to have a good business model, a successful product and go from there and reap the rewards.

 

[member 71782]

We shouldn't blame the attendance on JUST the records, though. There are several factors involved (that I've personally heard); some the league is responsible for, some the Spits are responsible for. Does winning cure all? Not necessarily.

Agreed.

The records are the result of a lot of things such as systems, player acquisitions, use of talent etc.

Off ice things such as how fans feel they have been treated, how they feel the orginization is being run and how it affects what was previously mentioned etc.

The league and how it's being run, some things to do with how certain things are enforced, how things are promoted and how the direction it is going is determined by the BoG, the owners or their hired representatives.

Agree, it's not just the record, there's many issues all of which is influenced by the ownership group, who they hire and eventually how it translates into the on ice and off ice products.

 

[hockeylegend11]

An honest question for the following, Teflon,Windsor7,Rayzor,Cfaub, and
Tribe
If the ownership of the Windsor so terrible,things with the hockey club so bad,then why would Eric Wellwood
want anything to do with this franchise?
Ignoring the fact that team had it's best season in the last 3,and looking like they can add to that after a couple apparent good drafts,bordering on excellent, the signing of excellent prospects, nobody seems unwilling to come here and play,and I am guessing there are even more applications then when Rocky Thompson was hired who want to be here.
Afterall Wellwood left what appears to be a bad scene in Flint,owner coming off suspension, GM left,Joe Stefan left,assistant coaches not returning?
Looking forward to your responses

 

[FiveHoleo]

I'm stunned the echo chamber of genius missed the point of my comment resulting in a mutual like-fest of each others posts against my cheeseburger analogy. I guess after 2 years of no cheeseburgers these hardcore "true" fans of the team won't accept anything less than the best cheeseburger. Good for you guys, I applaud your dedication to the big lie that ownership matters to the ticket buying public at large, and leave you to your back patting.

Here, this is for you cfaub:
con·cise
/kənˈsīs/
adjective
adjective: giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive.

 

[member 71782]

An honest question for the following, Teflon,Windsor7,Rayzor,Cfaub, and
Tribe
If the ownership of the Windsor so terrible,things with the hockey club so bad,then why would Eric Wellwood
want anything to do with this franchise?
Ignoring the fact that team had it's best season in the last 3,and looking like they can add to that after a couple apparent good drafts,bordering on excellent, the signing of excellent prospects, nobody seems unwilling to come here and play,and I am guessing there are even more applications then when Rocky Thompson was hired who want to be here.
Afterall Wellwood left what appears to be a bad scene in Flint,owner coming off suspension, GM left,Joe Stefan left,assistant coaches not returning?
Looking forward to your responses

I'm sure there could be many that none of us know but I would assume the obvious would be the following in no particular.

Local kid coaching the local team he grew up watching.

Coaching the team he spent his entire JR career playing for.

Can remain in his home, doesn't have to uproot his family which provides him and his family stability in a location they are familiar with.

Familiarity with the fanbase gives him the natural opportunity to have a positive impact of the ice and in the community.

After a challenging situation in Flint where he had a certain level of success at least in terms of getting the team on the ice back to being respectable and back to a position of being competitive again he'll have another challenging situation in Windsor, for different reasons. In Windsor the challenge would be to return the team back to the next level, get them over the hump they've struggled to get beyond since he was a player.

The chance to win a titles as a coach, if he has the support for the same team he won titles with as a player. Pride and loyalty in past and hopefully future accomplishments as a hometown kid on the hometown team.

Windsor as a franchise has a history of producing NHL coaches, from Quenville to Julien to Maurice and Deboer to so many others. The one thing the older ones have in common is not winning titles in Windsor but developing as a player or coach through trying times. More recent additions in terms coaching here have the history of winning titles at this level and unlike the early grads who were here as players they haven't been around long enough to have long term stability as NHL coaches yet. Here's hoping they do and Wellwood comes here before he turns pro, accomplishes what I listed above, getting the team over the hump and has both the challenges and successes to take him to the next level.

The challenges in Flint and Windsor are completely different on and off the ice but both situations have on and off ice challenges.

Flint of course had an owner who had a strong personal interest in the on ice affairs with his son and interfered to the point it affected the rest of the players desire to play there. He was suspended and Wellwood during the last two years of that suspension, under a GM who was also the commissioner's son turned the on ice product and locker room culture into one of a winner.

Windsor has a group that appears to be more interested in running the franchise like a typical business instead of a hockey club. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a buck but at the expense of producing a winning product it creates issue. They also have shown no interest in the long term of the team when they tried to sell it less than a year after announcing they had purchased controlling interest. This of course leads to potential long term issues on the ice. Just good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to go beyond.

One long other interest Wellwood could have, this would be more speculative than everything else would be between him and his brother, if he ends being a bit longer away from a chance as a pro coach would they along with other associates be able to make an offer on the team in a few years?

It would give him long term security if he could take the team to the next step, restore parts of the recruiting pipeline so that more flyers show up etc.

I don't think he with his brother are financially able to do that on their own but the name recognition along with perhaps some former pros they've played with or a silent partner looking to invest could provide that opportunity in a couple of years if he can help get the team turned back in the right direction if as coach he can get the on ice product to the next level and returning fans back to the seats in the process.

All speculation of course but many of those reasons seem pretty obvious.

 

[member 71782]

I'm stunned the echo chamber of genius missed the point of my comment resulting in a mutual like-fest of each others posts against my cheeseburger analogy. I guess after 2 years of no cheeseburgers these hardcore "true" fans of the team won't accept anything less than the best cheeseburger. Good for you guys, I applaud your dedication to the big lie that ownership matters to the ticket buying public at large, and leave you to your back patting.

Here, this is for you cfaub:
con·cise
/kənˈsīs/
adjective
adjective: giving a lot of information clearly and in a few words; brief but comprehensive.

Sorry, I admittedly am quite long winded. It's a major fault but it is what it is.

Maybe it's the way you presented it.

After two years of no cheeseburger I still wouldn't settle for a shitty one. If I have to wait for something I'll wait a little longer to get something I like instead of simply settling for second rate.

In terms of this specific situation, this goes beyond two years of a questionable product it goes to a decade of mediocrity brought on by poor decision making across multiple parties involved.

So two years of no hockey doesn't mean things will be all rosey now that hockey will back in town. Quite the opposite, if the same group is doing the same thing they did two years ago then what's changed for the better? Why settle now for what I wouldn't settle for then?

If you were fine with things two years ago then that's great for you, no one has said anything different. No one is telling you not to go and enjoy the games, do it and have a good time. If your expectation is to go watch a game and your fine with the quality, your expectations have been met then enjoy it.

While myself and others have given our reasons for our positions you and others seem to be the ones who have issues with our expectations.

No one is telling you you can't eat your cheeseburger but you and others seem to be trying to tell us we have to accept a product that doesn't meet our expectations.

Projecting. Accusing others of what you are doing.

If you disagree then that's great, it makes for lively debate. Speaking out of your ass over some things you seem to know nothing about as a way to attack a differing opinion, well it is what it is.

 

[Teflon]

Couldn’t have said it better Faub! Won’t muddy the waters with the same reasoning. So there you have it legend. If that’s not good enough your bias has completely taken over. As for bravos or butthead which ever you resemble. I’ll say it again. You have no clue sir!

 

[RayzorIsDull]

An honest question for the following, Teflon,Windsor7,Rayzor,Cfaub, and
Tribe
If the ownership of the Windsor so terrible,things with the hockey club so bad,then why would Eric Wellwood
want anything to do with this franchise?
Ignoring the fact that team had it's best season in the last 3,and looking like they can add to that after a couple apparent good drafts,bordering on excellent, the signing of excellent prospects, nobody seems unwilling to come here and play,and I am guessing there are even more applications then when Rocky Thompson was hired who want to be here.
Afterall Wellwood left what appears to be a bad scene in Flint,owner coming off suspension, GM left,Joe Stefan left,assistant coaches not returning?
Looking forward to your responses

Well we should start off with Wellwood and how he's been doing this for 5 years and it's clearly something that he wants to do. At this point there are limited opportunities right now for him. There are only 60 junior head coaching jobs out there and I can't see going to Quebec so cut that list down even further. With Wellwood saying he wanted to come back home and be closer to family that cuts the list down even further. He missed out on a bonanza of open OHL jobs this offseason as well.

I don't see what ownership has to do with his interest in taking the job. Flint was being run by the OHL at the time Wellwood took the assistant job in Flint but he took a job very quickly after Nilsen got suspended. Regardless of who was running the team the organization had a horrible reputation at the time and Wellwood still took the job.

This organization since they took over majority ownership has seen the lowest sth numbers since the arena opened. Like I said earlier the fans aren't dumb they can see what's been going on.

I will meet you in the middle I can't say the organization has had 2 excellent drafts when they haven't played a single game yet. It looks good on paper but we still need to see games played. No different in 2018 drafting Foudy and trading for Cuylle. Is that an excellent draft?? I wouldn't say it was excellent.

If Wellwood is looking for the quickest way to get to the pros he's going to take a job now instead of sitting out a year. It only makes sense.

 

[member 71782]

Well we should start off with Wellwood and how he's been doing this for 5 years and it's clearly something that he wants to do. At this point there are limited opportunities right now for him. There are only 60 junior head coaching jobs out there and I can't see going to Quebec so cut that list down even further. With Wellwood saying he wanted to come back home and be closer to family that cuts the list down even further. He missed out on a bonanza of open OHL jobs this offseason as well.

I don't see what ownership has to do with his interest in taking the job. Flint was being run by the OHL at the time Wellwood took the assistant job in Flint but he took a job very quickly after Nilsen got suspended. Regardless of who was running the team the organization had a horrible reputation at the time and Wellwood still took the job.

This organization since they took over majority ownership has seen the lowest sth numbers since the arena opened. Like I said earlier the fans aren't dumb they can see what's been going on.

I will meet you in the middle I can't say the organization has had 2 excellent drafts when they haven't played a single game yet. It looks good on paper but we still need to see games played. No different in 2018 drafting Foudy and trading for Cuylle. Is that an excellent draft?? I wouldn't say it was excellent.

If Wellwood is looking for the quickest way to get to the pros he's going to take a job now instead of sitting out a year. It only makes sense.

And Rayzor fills in what I left out and more.

There's limited opportunities at this or any level and a lot more unemployed coaches or people looking to move up to this level than there will ever be openings.

Sometimes you've got to take the good with the not so good, capitalize on the chances available when they're there.

Almost all on here would like to see Wellwood based on the names known to be out there but as Teflon as said if there's a better qualified candidate that person should be the one who gets the job.

Wellwood has the "intangibles" at this point of who is publicly known to be interested and we all know how people on here feel about the impact intangibles make.

 

[windsor7]

Lets hope the owners finally invest in this team instead of doing things cheap.
Looks on paper they drafted well.
Now owners need to continue the process.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Attendance issues can be attributed to a few things in my opinion.

1. Windsor has a large ethic diverse population, many of these people have grown up without hockey in lives so they don’t care much for hockey or the Spitfires.

2. Geography. Windsor is not a sports town, and many of the hockey/sports fans in Windsor would rather cross the river to see a the Red Wings/ Pistons / Lions / Tigers play than watch the Spitfires if they plan on going to a sporting event.

3. Winning consistently will bring in fans no matter what sport. But you have to know when to rebuild. Windsor should have done this in 2011 but we’re too proud and kept guys like Ellis, Kassian, Ryan, Kuhnhackl and Johnston even though they should have sold those guys for massive returns and try again the next season. The Hunters are masters at this and it’s a big reason why London is a contender year in and out.

 

[EON]

New thread: Windsor Spitfires 2021 Offseason Thread (Part 2)