Windsor Spitfires 2021-22 Season Thread (Part 3)

[EON]

Continued from: Windsor Spitfires 2021-22 Season Thread (Part 2)

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[member 71782]

This organization needs to get it's act together, nothing will significantly improve until those at the top facilitate improvements.

This summer they announced a number of off ice hirings/additions and I can't think of anyone on here who was against those changes. The problem then becomes utilization of those new additions.

Hiring a new off/on ice coach is great but if they're only available once a month or whatever their requirements are then it becomes a pretty pointless hiring for those who would directly benefit the players and coaching staff. So while I and probably everybody else applauded these are they simply symbolic hirings where someone shows up once in a while or are these people available in such a way as to actually be effective?

Off ice hirings such as scouts are great but do they have the support and direction/oversight to actually do the job effectively as well as the experience?

Giving an assistant coach an extra title seems to be more of a reward for loyalty then a position with responsibilities and expectations. Now if there are extra responsibilities then are they interfering with the coaching duties?

When it comes to the head coach I would imagine all would like the autonomy to hire their own staff but a new having assistants already hired by the org with no input at all from the new head coach and one of them given extra duties that'll create the need for more interaction with management beyond the scope of the assistant coaching duties can't be a good starting point for a new head coach. They may all get along, I don't know one way or another but I would find those circumstances somewhat concerning.

Specifically in relation to Bowler there's been questions since day one about his autonomy in the job, is he making the decisions? Many of us have felt he hasn't been. I'll guess he's handled the drafts and done a good job with limited support. In terms of managing the team however his decisions or lack of decisions is quite telling.

Trades made officially under him:

Out - Frasca to KGN for a 6th. Team got back a pick one round earlier then the pick they used to acquire him. I think he had a bit more value.

Out - Staois to HAM for 3x 2nds conditional 3rd and conditional 5th. Conditions have been met. Good return for a good but not premiere 1st round Dman.

In - Ripoli for a 12th from KIT. He was a warm body that exceeded expectations, which were extremely low. Bowler got value but had no call ups signed to bring up. Good value for a 12th but exposed the lack of depth the team Had.

In - Renwick for a 2nd, conditional 2nd which became a 3rd I stead with last season canceled and a conditional 5th for an OA season. While Renwick has been better than I expected I feel it was an overpayment. Don't know which 3rd will be sent in 2023.

Out - Putre to Flint for a 15th and a conditional 6th. Flint made no mention of any conditional picks so believe it was based on him reporting. Pitre was a 4th round pick who has done well in Flint while Windsor went all season, until this past weekend with no forward depth. Flint got great value in the deal while Windsor gave up needed depth for a poor return.

In and Out - Ribau and a 3rd from SBY for Robinson. Ribau has been fine but there should have been more in terms of picks. Robinson was an issue in 2019/20 and probably should have been dealt back then. He started off this season much better and then was dealt. After he was dealt some had an issue with his +/- but before those who had this issue were praising how he had greatly improved.

So far drafting is good, trades are a mixed bag and roster management has left a lot to be desired.

His recruiting has been mixed at best. He got O'Flaherty to report, was a bit of a Flyer. Used connections to get Birkett here who's been better than expected and that's about it. If he can get any of his 3 biggest flyers from the 2020 draft to report then he's doing better than expected. Right now his 2021 draft is showing much more potential but to build through the draft and not worrying about having to sell off for assets he needs at least 5 players each draft to make the team and make significant contributions. A bunch of kids who but in +/- 20 goals a year is great but if you don't have a couple who can push 40 or more you're not going to have much more than an average Team.

Right now Bowler hasn't been able to recruit those players and until he does this team will lack any real success.

If owners won't invest then this is as good as it gets year in and year out. This year that happens to be a team that wants to contend sitting last in their division and 8th in the conference. There's still 3/4 of a season to go but there's nothing that shows issues will be addressed.

 

[spits]

lmao, the team is not moving to a different city, that's pure nonsense. Did you hear? Kitchener is also struggling, are 3-10 in their last 13, and attendance is down 30% the Aud. They don't an actual owner, they must be moving too! Erie been a bottom feeder in the standings for a while now, the team is relocating. *** Sarcasm***

 

[Teflon]

That’s awesome spits I guess you know more than I do currently! Your sarcasm game is lame tho lmao. Better step it up. It isn’t the struggling fact that’s concerning. It’s the fact this TEAM IS FOR SALE. Not sure if that’s part of your knowledge base. I’ve seen some crazy things in my years and a sale/move isn’t out of the realm right now. Cornwall has been pushing for a team for a while now. The lack of dedication from this ownership should concern you!

 

[aresknights]

lmao, the team is not moving to a different city, that's pure nonsense. Did you hear? Kitchener is also struggling, are 3-10 in their last 13, and attendance is down 30% the Aud. They don't an actual owner, they must be moving too! Erie been a bottom feeder in the standings for a while now, the team is relocating. *** Sarcasm***

Kitchener is community owned, why would they allow a move? And they have had success over the last decade although not a Memorial Cup, but some very good teams. A respected organization in the OHL.
Other than a host year, more success than Windsor over a 10 yr stretch. This is not meant as a dig but rather context.

 

[OHLTG]

The team isn't likely to move anywhere. HOWEVER, as I've said many times before, if we take them for granted and DO end up losing them, that's embarrassing. There's a lot of negatives out there, but none of them are worse than the team moving. I mean, we sit here and go "this is bad, that's bad, this could be changed, that could be changed"... but I'm thankful we have hockey at all right now. But, maybe that's just me.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

I think there has been a lot of talk whether or not this team is young or experienced etc... We should have a conversation overall and what they currently are, where they might be headed and what is in the future. Look at rookie scoring for teams teams are carrying between 9-10 rookies or so. London has had good rookie performances and I think we all realize Windsor isn't on that level.

One team we should talk about is Guelph and their embarrasment of riches a 2020 draft that could be an all timer for any organization. Getting some good fortune in Pastujov etc.. There was a large discussion in 19-20 after Guelph winning the title in 2019 and having a lot of vets they didn't make a lot of moves (traded Phillips, Lalonde) they rode their vets and got great goaltending from Daws. They were middle of the pack just like Windsor when covid ended the year. Windsor losses were documented. We had Guelph losing 90 point Gogolev 83 point Hillis guys like Uba/Stevenson/Ralph/Daws/Gordeev and the list goes on.

Guelph in 2020 drafted Poitras(rd 1)/Buchinger(rd2 24th)/Karabela(rd2 32nd)/McGuire(rd3 56th). The first 3 guys have combined for 10g 38a.

Guelph follows up in 2021 with Cam Allen (3rd overall) 3g 5a and a couple other guys.

Bowman an 18 year old who played just a game or two in 19-20 has added 9 goals, decent imports and Pastujov. The Storm have 12 to 13 new guys from 19-20 to now.

Look at Windsor they have 10-12 new guys depending on how you view Lecot/Martin/McIlwain. I am fine with counting the last 2 but Lecot is 19 and won't be on the roster next year. The Spits have gotten decent production from Miedema and Abraham which is good and can bode well for the future. Ride has been fine but it seems but Windsor is still lacking that huge draft year. Windsor came into the year expecting a contending year and they have not been close to that. Windsor never had the opportunity to draft Buchinger/Karabela or Poitras but Windsor with the way they have drafted probably need an influx of picks and have more lottery tickets. There are 17 year olds around the league that are out performing Spitfire OAs. Bowler has shown a lot of loyalty to his OAs the past couple years Boka/Purboo/Ladd/Henault/D'Amico/Stevenson. Where did Bowler get the pay back for this??

 

[OHL4Life]

This organization needs to get it's act together, nothing will significantly improve until those at the top facilitate improvements.

This summer they announced a number of off ice hirings/additions and I can't think of anyone on here who was against those changes. The problem then becomes utilization of those new additions.

Hiring a new off/on ice coach is great but if they're only available once a month or whatever their requirements are then it becomes a pretty pointless hiring for those who would directly benefit the players and coaching staff. So while I and probably everybody else applauded these are they simply symbolic hirings where someone shows up once in a while or are these people available in such a way as to actually be effective?

Off ice hirings such as scouts are great but do they have the support and direction/oversight to actually do the job effectively as well as the experience?

Giving an assistant coach an extra title seems to be more of a reward for loyalty then a position with responsibilities and expectations. Now if there are extra responsibilities then are they interfering with the coaching duties?

When it comes to the head coach I would imagine all would like the autonomy to hire their own staff but a new having assistants already hired by the org with no input at all from the new head coach and one of them given extra duties that'll create the need for more interaction with management beyond the scope of the assistant coaching duties can't be a good starting point for a new head coach. They may all get along, I don't know one way or another but I would find those circumstances somewhat concerning.

Specifically in relation to Bowler there's been questions since day one about his autonomy in the job, is he making the decisions? Many of us have felt he hasn't been. I'll guess he's handled the drafts and done a good job with limited support. In terms of managing the team however his decisions or lack of decisions is quite telling.

Trades made officially under him:

Out - Frasca to KGN for a 6th. Team got back a pick one round earlier then the pick they used to acquire him. I think he had a bit more value.

Out - Staois to HAM for 3x 2nds conditional 3rd and conditional 5th. Conditions have been met. Good return for a good but not premiere 1st round Dman.

In - Ripoli for a 12th from KIT. He was a warm body that exceeded expectations, which were extremely low. Bowler got value but had no call ups signed to bring up. Good value for a 12th but exposed the lack of depth the team Had.

In - Renwick for a 2nd, conditional 2nd which became a 3rd I stead with last season canceled and a conditional 5th for an OA season. While Renwick has been better than I expected I feel it was an overpayment. Don't know which 3rd will be sent in 2023.

Out - Putre to Flint for a 15th and a conditional 6th. Flint made no mention of any conditional picks so believe it was based on him reporting. Pitre was a 4th round pick who has done well in Flint while Windsor went all season, until this past weekend with no forward depth. Flint got great value in the deal while Windsor gave up needed depth for a poor return.

In and Out - Ribau and a 3rd from SBY for Robinson. Ribau has been fine but there should have been more in terms of picks. Robinson was an issue in 2019/20 and probably should have been dealt back then. He started off this season much better and then was dealt. After he was dealt some had an issue with his +/- but before those who had this issue were praising how he had greatly improved.

So far drafting is good, trades are a mixed bag and roster management has left a lot to be desired.

His recruiting has been mixed at best. He got O'Flaherty to report, was a bit of a Flyer. Used connections to get Birkett here who's been better than expected and that's about it. If he can get any of his 3 biggest flyers from the 2020 draft to report then he's doing better than expected. Right now his 2021 draft is showing much more potential but to build through the draft and not worrying about having to sell off for assets he needs at least 5 players each draft to make the team and make significant contributions. A bunch of kids who but in +/- 20 goals a year is great but if you don't have a couple who can push 40 or more you're not going to have much more than an average Team.

Right now Bowler hasn't been able to recruit those players and until he does this team will lack any real success.

If owners won't invest then this is as good as it gets year in and year out. This year that happens to be a team that wants to contend sitting last in their division and 8th in the conference. There's still 3/4 of a season to go but there's nothing that shows issues will be addressed.

their scouts are not that good, look at the last 3 drafts, barely get 3 players per draft and even guys like jodin, who was drafted as a d in the 3rd is now what, a 13th forward? they need to get more out of their drafting.

 

[tomschman]

The team isn't likely to move anywhere. HOWEVER, as I've said many times before, if we take them for granted and DO end up losing them, that's embarrassing. There's a lot of negatives out there, but none of them are worse than the team moving. I mean, we sit here and go "this is bad, that's bad, this could be changed, that could be changed"... but I'm thankful we have hockey at all right now. But, maybe that's just me.

If the team were to move, other teams in the O would be lining up to come here. The WFCU is superior to about most of the arenas in the league and until recently, Windsor has been an attendance leader.

It might result in a season or two without the O, but the fans would reappear for the new team. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[Otto]

The team isn't likely to move anywhere. HOWEVER, as I've said many times before, if we take them for granted and DO end up losing them, that's embarrassing. There's a lot of negatives out there, but none of them are worse than the team moving. I mean, we sit here and go "this is bad, that's bad, this could be changed, that could be changed"... but I'm thankful we have hockey at all right now. But, maybe that's just me.

Why not though? The team apparently had a deal in place with Aunt Becky that fell through. They have declined in attendance every season since 2010/11 except one. They went from Averaging 6278 in 2009/10 to 3919 in 2019/20 .. you're looking at about a $4,000,000 revenue loss just on game days for the year. That doesn't include merchandise.

Is there anyone out there who believes that after that long of a struggle at the box office they can miraculously turn it around in Windsor?

 

[aresknights]

I remember that convo re Guelph Razor. Interesting how it has turned out since both teams took a run. And the opinions shared on both sides.
One as host who made moves, and one who flipped half their team to get to the dance and their subsequent rebuilds. That year was super impressive on Guelphs end n how it was done. Moved vet talent out for capital n flipped it.
Team wouldn't allow a PO series L somehow even thou digging a big hole every series. Windsor did that in 09 or 10 as well.
Knowing a staff member with Guelph and Burnetts rep I'm not surprised they flipped it as effectively as they have. And with nee ownership(?)
That team should be very solid thru 2/3 years.
Windsor can get there as well just might take a year or 2 longer. If they get aggressive.
In general I'm a fan of aggressive leadership. Pick a direction n go after it hard. Will ya always make the right decisions, heck no, no one does....but go for it.

 

[Otto]

and until recently, Windsor has been an attendance leader.

Windsor's average attendance in 2018/19 was 4,146, their 10 year average at that point was 5,394. for a difference of 1,248 , lowest in the league. most teams see highs and lows, Windsor has been consistently lower every season from 2010/11 except for 2016/17 where they increased by 217 per game over the previous season. The attendance issue isn't a new phenomenon in Windsor and shouldn't be ignored.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

The team isn't likely to move anywhere. HOWEVER, as I've said many times before, if we take them for granted and DO end up losing them, that's embarrassing. There's a lot of negatives out there, but none of them are worse than the team moving. I mean, we sit here and go "this is bad, that's bad, this could be changed, that could be changed"... but I'm thankful we have hockey at all right now. But, maybe that's just me.

They still have a long lease with the WFCU Centre and the City of Windsor that lease I believe was between 25-30 years so at best maybe 12-13 years left on that lease. So most likely there's a better chance of getting new ownership and staying here than a new owner buying out a lease and moving the franchise.

 

[OHLTG]

If the team were to move, other teams in the O would be lining up to come here. The WFCU is superior to about most of the arenas in the league and until recently, Windsor has been an attendance leader.

It might result in a season or two without the O, but the fans would reappear for the new team. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

We just had a 19-month absence. Another isn't needed. While I'm not a fan of the ticket prices, taking this team for granted is a horrible concept. Maybe others don't care but a lot of us do.

The attendance issue isn't a new phenomenon in Windsor and shouldn't be ignored.

Prices this season aren't helping anything and that's been brought up numerous times. You can't expect someone to fork over $25-30 for a random Thurs night game against a non-rival (say Owen Sound or Guelph), plus another $10 per person in food/drink. It's not realistic. That said, ticket prices aren't the only issue and I've been saying that for years.

 

[spits]

Why not though? The team apparently had a deal in place with Aunt Becky that fell through. They have declined in attendance every season since 2010/11 except one. They went from Averaging 6278 in 2009/10 to 3919 in 2019/20 .. you're looking at about a $4,000,000 revenue loss just on game days for the year. That doesn't include merchandise.

Is there anyone out there who believes that after that long of a struggle at the box office they can miraculously turn it around in Windsor?

If the team is better fans will attend. The team hasn't won a playoff round in 10 years. Attendance is still in the top half of the league even though they haven't won a round in 10 years. Team isn't moving, sorry to ruin your fantasy.

 

[spits]

Kitchener is community owned, why would they allow a move? And they have had success over the last decade although not a Memorial Cup, but some very good teams. A respected organization in the OHL.
Other than a host year, more success than Windsor over a 10 yr stretch. This is not meant as a dig but rather context.

My post was sarcastic. The only reason some people are bringing up this nonsense of the team relocating is due to the struggles this season. So I mentioned how badly Kitchener is struggling along with their big dip in attendance.

 

[Otto]

If the team is better fans will attend. The team hasn't won a playoff round in 10 years. Attendance is still in the top half of the league even though they haven't won a round in 10 years. Team isn't moving, sorry to ruin your fantasy.

I don't have a fantasy about moving the Spitfires, I want them to stay, I don't believe relocation of any franchise is good for the league. I haven't dug into if they are actually in the top half in attendance or not, but the stats don't lie, they have decreased in every season but 1 over the last 10 seasons. They are losing at least $4 million more per season now than they were 10 seasons ago. That's not good, and any new owner isn't going to put up with it.

It's no secret the team is for sale. One of the first questions a new owner will have is how much will it cost to get out of the lease. At that point they will give it enough time to try and turn it around and if they can't then at some point breaking the lease will make more financial sense

 

[spits]

That’s awesome spits I guess you know more than I do currently! Your sarcasm game is lame tho lmao. Better step it up. It isn’t the struggling fact that’s concerning. It’s the fact this TEAM IS FOR SALE. Not sure if that’s part of your knowledge base. I’ve seen some crazy things in my years and a sale/move isn’t out of the realm right now. Cornwall has been pushing for a team for a while now. The lack of dedication from this ownership should concern you!

Ya it's common knowledge the team is for sale. They are not going to sell the team to someone who will relocate, it's quite simple really. 99% of the time when a team is sold it's to a buyer who will keep the team in the city. No one is going to buy the team then pay another 50-100M for an arena in a new city, especially when they already play in a newer, 6500 seat arena.

 

[aresknights]

My post was sarcastic. The only reason some people are bringing up this nonsense of the team relocating is due to the struggles this season. So I mentioned how badly Kitchener is struggling along with their big dip in attendance.

Ok my misunderstanding. Reading this board I thought the frustrations for many ran longer than just this year. Closer to 10.
JMO, I can't see them moving but the downward trend in attendance over a decade most certainly must be a concern for ownership even if it is still mid league.

 

[member 71782]

Why is the concern the fans taking the team for granted? Why is it not the team taking the fans for granted?

The fans have no input in any decisions made by the team. Those decisions in the end have a major impact on attendance.

To expect fans to continuously support a mediocre product under the potential consequences of losing the team if they don't is ludicrous.

If a team, Windsor or anyone else moves because they lack fan support look at how the team was run, chances are there were intentions to move it for various reasons and almost none of it is due to fan support.

If they were getting blown out every night would it be the fans fault for not supporting them?

If owners aren't willing to invest in a team, build a winning product who's responsible for the empty seats, the owners or the fans?

You have an ownership group who were simply trying to flip this team to make a buck, that was their only interest when they took a controlling stake. They were minority owners who I would bet were looking to maximize their return. Quietly find a buyer for the team. Take a controlling stake at a lower cost then the other deal you have already made. Sell the team the year after you take a controlling interest in it.

When the sale gets turned down, something they likely didn't expect then run the team into the ground, hope you can still recoup your investment regardless of the state of the franchise.

The team has a lengthy lease but there's always a way out. Worst case scenario you bankrupt the franchise and the league authorizes a brand new franchise with no roots in Windsor.

This franchise has been in danger of moving before. Sales have also been denied for fear of it being moved. There's no guarantee either way. One thing that can be guaranteed is as long as it continues to be run like this fans will not support it.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Solid move, could definitely benefit from a change of scenery.

 

[member 71782]

Well they did something.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

We just had a 19-month absence. Another isn't needed. While I'm not a fan of the ticket prices, taking this team for granted is a horrible concept. Maybe others don't care but a lot of us do.



Prices this season aren't helping anything and that's been brought up numerous times. You can't expect someone to fork over $25-30 for a random Thurs night game against a non-rival (say Owen Sound or Guelph), plus another $10 per person in food/drink. It's not realistic. That said, ticket prices aren't the only issue and I've been saying that for years.

Let's take a deeper dive into this shall we.

You talk about a 19 month absence and another one isn't needed. Well no but as I said there is a lease that is preventing the team from going anywhere even if they wanted to. You're not a fan of ticket prices??

Why is it then the fans taking the franchise for granted?? I mean let's keep some perspective the owners of the Spitfires are millionaires they're not losing money because the Spitfires organization isn't their main source of income. They are business people and their business was still a money machine during the past 19 months.

The underlying tone of your posts seems to be putting the blame on the fans because they are taking the organization for granted but glossing over with a side point tickets are pricey.

Let's just break it down for you 19 months without hockey due to pandemic, still not out of it. Highest unemployment in the country.

Owners who once said they were committed to having a strong product and then hell bent on selling the team that fell through.

Coming back expecting nothing to change even though every man/woman/child could read the news and knew what happened.

In this whole scenario there isn't much reason to side with ownership and act like fans are taking the product for granted. Keeping in mind some people lost their job at some point during these last 20 months, some people lost their business and recalibrate their priorities. I don't believe there were many people returning back to the rink saying to the Savage's "we all good now."

It can take years to build a culture of good hockey, fun times, loyalty etc.. It can be wiped out in a single moment and this is what you're facing now. You have owners that still want to sell the team but there isn't a market so in the process owners get the label of being lame ducks.

Are the owners in it for the long haul and making the best out of it or do they want to watch it crumble??

 

[ohloutsider]

OHLTG - please don't say this is a good trade until he plays a few games here. Last time we traded for a forward from NB he was released at Christmas. This player has 1 goal and 1 assist so far this year. This is a tweak move at best.