Will Atlanta Get Another Team?

[BigBadBruins7708]

Win and they show up. Just like everywhere else.

Except they dont.

It's been shown with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Atlanta/Georgia doesn't support professional teams win or lose, UGA is a different story.

 

[aqib]

If there is a willing owner willing to pay up the dough. And either controls State Farm or is willing to build one somewhere else.

NHL definitely would want back in if opportunity arises, but its hard to see when that happens.

What is that based on? Is there a single quote from ANYONE in the NHL hierarchy or ownership ranks that indicates this is the case. I literally only see this on this board.

 

[aqib]

Geez, put on poor product on ice and people don't care. What a shock.

I have no idea why people expect teams to draw no matter how terrible the team is. Why is this the bar for teams in warm weather climate only?
And even then they outdrew Atlanta Hawks.

Average attendance went from 17.2K in year 1 to 15.3K in year 2 to 13.7K in year 3. Were people really expecting them to become a contender right away like the Golden Knights were? Everyone wants to blame ASG but in 02-03 the attendance was 13,476 and in ASGs last year 13,469. So ASG caused attendance to drop by a whopping 7 fans per game. Also no one ever talks about why the Flames didn't draw even though they were a pretty solid team when they were there.

Meanwhile in Winnipeg they missed the playoffs 5 out of the first 6 years and got swept the one year they were in it and still sold out every game. Demand was to the point they even brought the AHL team back to share the building.

As far as the bar for teams in warm weather climates. Its been 4 years since Bettman said the Coyotes needed a new arena and "Cannot and will not remain in Glendale" but there is no talk of them going anywhere. Meanwhile the Oilers were threatened with relocation when arena negotiations stalled as were the Flames.

 

[nhlfan79]

Average attendance went from 17.2K in year 1 to 15.3K in year 2 to 13.7K in year 3. Were people really expecting them to become a contender right away like the Golden Knights were? Everyone wants to blame ASG but in 02-03 the attendance was 13,476 and in ASGs last year 13,469. So ASG caused attendance to drop by a whopping 7 fans per game. Also no one ever talks about why the Flames didn't draw even though they were a pretty solid team when they were there.

Meanwhile in Winnipeg they missed the playoffs 5 out of the first 6 years and got swept the one year they were in it and still sold out every game. Demand was to the point they even brought the AHL team back to share the building.

As far as the bar for teams in warm weather climates. Its been 4 years since Bettman said the Coyotes needed a new arena and "Cannot and will not remain in Glendale" but there is no talk of them going anywhere. Meanwhile the Oilers were threatened with relocation when arena negotiations stalled as were the Flames.

The team in the early years was absolutely wretched by design, with Don Waddell purposely tanking to build through the draft. But once the honeymoon was over, the fans reasonably started expecting incremental improvement, which never happened because, by then, AOL-TW imploded and a faceless corporate owner cut spending to the bone with the league-lowest payroll. Pre-salary cap/floor, the team being iced had no chance for success when many other teams were spending ten times as much in salaries. Then the Heatley/Snyder tragedy, the '04 lockout, and ASG all happened.

The Flames regularly outdrew some Original Six teams. They generally were on par with most of the rest of the league in that era.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Meanwhile in Winnipeg they missed the playoffs 5 out of the first 6 years and got swept the one year they were in it and still sold out every game. Demand was to the point they even brought the AHL team back to share the building.

Atlanta Thrashers had to compete for fans against Hawks, Falcons and Braves. Winnipeg has no such competition.

And Atlanta is a FUN CITY with a lot of things to do. Winnipeg? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

As far as the bar for teams in warm weather climates. Its been 4 years since Bettman said the Coyotes needed a new arena and "Cannot and will not remain in Glendale" but there is no talk of them going anywhere. Meanwhile the Oilers were threatened with relocation when arena negotiations stalled as were the Flames.

So...where are the Flames now, despite no new arena? Still in Calgary.

Threatening to move is a ploy by the said team owner to extract money from the city. Has no bearings on what NHL as a league wants.

 

[KevFu]

Lots of things I disagree with in the last couple pages.

Making broad statements about a "market" based on the performance of a team like Atlanta or Phoenix or wherever, is just really dumb, because it's all circumstantial:

- If you have a team that's always top three in revenue, that market is great.
- If you have a team that's middle of the pack in revenue, closer to 20 when they're terrible, closer to 10 when they're doing well, that market is just fine.
- If you have a team that's near the bottom of revenue and attendance for like 25 years running, even when they're winning they draw 14,000 max, then that market is a total joke and should abandon, right?

But that's exact same market three times: The Rangers, Devils and Islanders for the last 25 years.

If the Islanders were financial garbage for 30 years because of a terrible lease, and a terrible arena; and all their problems are solved by their own brand new arena... just like Minnesota, by the way...

...why wouldn't Phoenix or Atlanta or Miami or wherever be judged the same way?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Except they dont.

It's been shown with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Atlanta/Georgia doesn't support professional teams win or lose, UGA is a different story.

Atlanta does fine supporting Braves and Falcons.

Hawks were never relevant until now. Even when they did make playoffs.

 

[MNNumbers]

Lots of things I disagree with in the last couple pages.

Making broad statements about a "market" based on the performance of a team like Atlanta or Phoenix or wherever, is just really dumb, because it's all circumstantial:

- If you have a team that's always top three in revenue, that market is great.
- If you have a team that's middle of the pack in revenue, closer to 20 when they're terrible, closer to 10 when they're doing well, that market is just fine.
- If you have a team that's near the bottom of revenue and attendance for like 25 years running, even when they're winning they draw 14,000 max, then that market is a total joke and should abandon, right?

But that's exact same market three times: The Rangers, Devils and Islanders for the last 25 years.

If the Islanders were financial garbage for 30 years because of a terrible lease, and a terrible arena; and all their problems are solved by their own brand new arena... just like Minnesota, by the way...

...why wouldn't Phoenix or Atlanta or Miami or wherever be judged the same way?

Obviously, KevFu, no one is going to abandon the NY market. The TV deals are exceptional. Using them in this comparison is very disingenuous... Unless you are trying to point out that EVERY market is unique.

 

[LetsGoIslanders]

Never. Not a chance in hell. Maybe Gwinnett can get an AHL team and that's about it.

The Atlanta Hawks play in Philips Arena. The Braves play along the northern Perimeter, but I don't understand why a dome wasn't built. Atlanta is insufferable during the summer but they built an open air stadium.

 

[aqib]

Atlanta Thrashers had to compete for fans against Hawks, Falcons and Braves. Winnipeg has no such competition.

And Atlanta is a FUN CITY with a lot of things to do. Winnipeg? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

First of all the competition with other sports options is one of the many reasons why the NHL will NEVER return to Atlanta. As far as fun city goes, have you ever been to Winnipeg? Literally EVERY city that has major league sports teams has fun things to do. You're telling me NYC doesn't have anything to do other than sports? They support 9 major league teams. Toronto?

How about Dallas? A warm weather city with plenty to do, 3 other Major League teams (2 of which have won Championships), lots of transplants from all over the place, and college football is a religion. Sound familiar? When the Stars were up for sale they sold for $240 million. No one even offered HALF that amount to keep the Thrashers in Atlanta.

The only good thing that could come out of Atlanta getting another NHL team is that it would mean another team moving to Canada in a few years...

 

[nhlfan79]

When the Stars were up for sale they sold for $240 million. No one even offered HALF that amount to keep the Thrashers in Atlanta.

The only good thing that could come out of Atlanta getting another NHL team is that it would mean another team moving to Canada in a few years...

Now you're being purposefully myopic. The Thrashers never were really for sale to anyone wanting to keep the team here, given the impossible financial conditions ASG was placing on any such sale. That's been covered ad nauseum here.

Funny, you mention Dallas, as that's exactly what Atlanta would've looked like if they ever had had stable, interested ownership. And did that Stars sale price include access to arena revenue streams? That asset was never on the table in Atlanta, which is the whole point of why they were relocation fodder. The owners never wanted the team and kicked them out of the only place they could play in town at the first possible moment that they legally could do so. I can't believe this still needs to be rehashed.

And that parting shot was just straight-up douche-ey.

 

[aqib]

Now you're being purposefully myopic. The Thrashers never were really for sale to anyone wanting to keep the team here, given the impossible financial conditions ASG was placing on any such sale. That's been covered ad nauseum here.

Funny, you mention Dallas, as that's exactly what Atlanta would've looked like if they ever had had stable, interested ownership. And did that Stars sale price include access to arena revenue streams? That asset was never on the table in Atlanta, which is the whole point of why they were relocation fodder. The owners never wanted the team and kicked them out of the only place they could play in town at the first possible moment that they legally could do so. I can't believe this still needs to be rehashed.

And that parting shot was just straight-up douche-ey.

I've been saying for a while there are things that only get talked about on this board and has no basis in reality. One is the potential MLSE divorce and the another is the NHL returning to Atlanta. When it comes to the narrative around the Thrashers and the potential for a 3rd Atlanta team, this board is like alternate universe. If you only read this board you would think everything was going well under the Time Warner ownership and they were playing to a relatively packed house. The numbers show that after the first year attendance fell and they were below 14K before the team was sold. As bad as ASG was their only playoff appearance was under ASG's ownership. If you only read this board you would think there were many potential owners interested in buying the team and keeping it in Atlanta but the ASG boogeyman was determined to get rid of them. However, here is the former Thrashers beat reporter saying "I tracked down anyone rumored to have interest. There was never any serious negotiations. I even talked to Tom Glavine, who had a willingness for a small minority share in the Thrashers if it would help keep the franchise in Atlanta"

Two misses and you’re out for NHL in Atlanta

Also given that they had a deal to sell the Hawks a few months later to a guy who eventually bought an NHL team shows that a deal could have been worked out for both teams if the Atlanta market had a pulse when it came for hockey.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

First of all the competition with other sports options is one of the many reasons why the NHL will NEVER return to Atlanta.

They just gave a team to Seattle.

As far as fun city goes, have you ever been to Winnipeg? Literally EVERY city that has major league sports teams has fun things to do.

Some more than others. Atlanta is definitely up there. Winnipeg is definitely not.

You're telling me NYC doesn't have anything to do other than sports? They support 9 major league teams. Toronto?

Have you looked at Devils and Islanders attendance? And I say this as an Islanders fan.

How about Dallas? A warm weather city with plenty to do, 3 other Major League teams (2 of which have won Championships), lots of transplants from all over the place, and college football is a religion. Sound familiar? When the Stars were up for sale they sold for $240 million. No one even offered HALF that amount to keep the Thrashers in Atlanta.

Apples and oranges

The only good thing that could come out of Atlanta getting another NHL team is that it would mean another team moving to Canada in a few years...

Good old Canadian hockey fascism.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Atlanta does fine supporting Braves and Falcons.

Hawks were never relevant until now. Even when they did make playoffs.

This is from the 1999 NLCS against their biggest rival the Mets. The 7 years prior they won 4 NL Pennants and 1 WS, yet couldn't sell out NLCS games against a rival

Braves Game Still Not a Sellout

From 2019...a brand new billion dollar stadium and a Super Bowl contender, yet struggle to sell tickets

Falcons continue to struggle to fill new stadium - ProFootballTalk

 

[BKIslandersFan]

This is from the 1999 NLCS against their biggest rival the Mets. The 7 years prior they won 4 NL Pennants and 1 WS, yet couldn't sell out NLCS games against a rival

Braves Game Still Not a Sellout

They averaged 10th and 11th in attendance respectively in 2019.

 

[nhlfan79]

I've been saying for a while there are things that only get talked about on this board and has no basis in reality. One is the potential MLSE divorce and the another is the NHL returning to Atlanta. When it comes to the narrative around the Thrashers and the potential for a 3rd Atlanta team, this board is like alternate universe. If you only read this board you would think everything was going well under the Time Warner ownership and they were playing to a relatively packed house. The numbers show that after the first year attendance fell and they were below 14K before the team was sold. As bad as ASG was their only playoff appearance was under ASG's ownership. If you only read this board you would think there were many potential owners interested in buying the team and keeping it in Atlanta but the ASG boogeyman was determined to get rid of them. However, here is the former Thrashers beat reporter saying "I tracked down anyone rumored to have interest. There was never any serious negotiations. I even talked to Tom Glavine, who had a willingness for a small minority share in the Thrashers if it would help keep the franchise in Atlanta"

Two misses and you’re out for NHL in Atlanta

Also given that they had a deal to sell the Hawks a few months later to a guy who eventually bought an NHL team shows that a deal could have been worked out for both teams if the Atlanta market had a pulse when it came for hockey.

Again, you're twisting things wildly out of context. Vivlamore was referring to the lack of anyone interested in owning ONLY the Thrashers without also having access to some (or all) of the arena operating rights. No one in their right mind would buy the team itself without a corresponding share of the arena revenue.

You're also deliberately leaving out the fact that ASG entered into a sham exclusive negotiating agreement with John Moores, former San Diego Padres owner, for just the arena and the Hawks, making it legally impossible for them to offer all three assets to any interested buyer. Not coincidentally, that agreement ended on the exact date that the Thrashers were sold to True North. This is all separate and apart from their later attempt to sell to Alex Meruelo, which you reference.

So, you're just factually wrong. And for the record, I'm not suggesting by any of this that the NHL is ripe to return here or that the league even currently wants to. However, two things are indisputably true: (1) the NHL at the time hated losing this market, but ASG had all the leverage, so the league made the only possible move it could, given that ASG was about to drop the keys on the league's desk and tell them good luck finding another local building to call home; and (2) Atlanta itself has since moved on from the NHL, now that MLS is here and thriving.

 

[nhlfan79]

This is from the 1999 NLCS against their biggest rival the Mets. The 7 years prior they won 4 NL Pennants and 1 WS, yet couldn't sell out NLCS games against a rival

Braves Game Still Not a Sellout

From 2019...a brand new billion dollar stadium and a Super Bowl contender, yet struggle to sell tickets

Falcons continue to struggle to fill new stadium - ProFootballTalk

The one baseball game was literally 22 years ago, for [Pete's] sake. Mid-week. In a 52,000+ seat stadium. With 9,000 unsold tix, and with the inevitable walkups, that's a virtual sellout in just about every other stadium in the league. We've covered all of this already. (Not to mention it was after a full decade of going to the playoffs every single year and falling short every time except 1995).

And the Falcons? The linked article mentions people actually in attendance on a given day. The tickets were long already sold as part of PSLs. It's not like the team has unsold seats. Why they're not showing up is a different issue. EDIT: The article links to a picture of half-filled seats in the first quarter. There are website/Twitter accounts that do nothing but post similar pictures from across the entire NFL. Atlanta is no different than anywhere else.

 

[aqib]

They just gave a team to Seattle.

Some more than others. Atlanta is definitely up there. Winnipeg is definitely not.

Have you looked at Devils and Islanders attendance? And I say this as an Islanders fan.

Apples and oranges

Good old Canadian hockey fascism.

Have you been to Winnipeg? Serious question. Like I said every city big enough to host a major league team has a nightlife and a bunch of entertainment options. Its just some cities like hockey more than others.

The Islanders have always had horrible arena situations. I grew up in NY and lived in LI for a couple of years. Getting to a 7PM start when you work in Manhattan is damn near impossible and that's where the high paying jobs are. Lets see what happens in the new arena.

 

[aqib]

Again, you're twisting things wildly out of context. Vivlamore was referring to the lack of anyone interested in owning ONLY the Thrashers without also having access to some (or all) of the arena operating rights. No one in their right mind would buy the team itself without a corresponding share of the arena revenue.

You're also deliberately leaving out the fact that ASG entered into a sham exclusive negotiating agreement with John Moores, former San Diego Padres owner, for just the arena and the Hawks, making it legally impossible for them to offer all three assets to any interested buyer. Not coincidentally, that agreement ended on the exact date that the Thrashers were sold to True North. This is all separate and apart from their later attempt to sell to Alex Meruelo, which you reference.

So, you're just factually wrong. And for the record, I'm not suggesting by any of this that the NHL is ripe to return here or that the league even currently wants to. However, two things are indisputably true: (1) the NHL at the time hated losing this market, but ASG had all the leverage, so the league made the only possible move it could, given that ASG was about to drop the keys on the league's desk and tell them good luck finding another local building to call home; and (2) Atlanta itself has since moved on from the NHL, now that MLS is here and thriving.

This is what I refer to as the alternate universe. Vivlamore clearly said "I tracked down anyone rumored to have interest. There was never any serious negotiations. I even talked to Tom Glavine, who had a willingness for a small minority share in the Thrashers if it would help keep the franchise in Atlanta" you then added what you think he was referring to. He didn't say "but they indicated that they were only interested in buying the team if the Hawks or part ownership of the arena were included" he said "never any serious negotiations"

The agreement with Moores ended a week before the deal with Winnipeg was announced. According to this article they had been shopping the Hawks as well and no one emerged to buy both teams Atlanta Hawks No Longer Up for Sale | SLAM

The fact that they agreed to a deal a few months later to sell the Hawks backs up that someone could have bought all three (Hawks, Thrashers, and arena rights) or even two different parties could have come in and done a Dallas style deal where one guy buys one team and another buys the other team and they split the arena.

So given all that its one of 2 things: 1) No one with the resources to buy an NHL team thinks that Atlanta is a viable market and as a result neither the NHL nor any of its owners could find anyone to even make an offer to buy the team or 2) ASG was a bunch of meanies that wanted to insure the hockey would die in Atlanta

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Have you been to Winnipeg? Serious question. Like I said every city big enough to host a major league team has a nightlife and a bunch of entertainment options. Its just some cities like hockey more than others.

The Islanders have always had horrible arena situations. I grew up in NY and lived in LI for a couple of years. Getting to a 7PM start when you work in Manhattan is damn near impossible and that's where the high paying jobs are. Lets see what happens in the new arena.

Yes. It’s a nice city but night scene in Atlanta far surpass Winnipeg.

 

[aqib]

Yes. It’s a nice city but night scene in Atlanta far surpass Winnipeg.

So out of 6-7 million people in the Atlanta are you couldn't get 16K to the arena 40 times a year because everyone is at bars every night of the year. Whereas 800K people in Winnipeg have no where to go. They don't have bars, restaurants, movie theaters, absolutely nothing. In fact I googled "things to do in Winnipeg" and the list had only 2 things:

1) Go to a hockey game
2) Stay home and cry

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So out of 6-7 million people in the Atlanta are you couldn't get 16K to the arena 40 times a year because everyone is at bars every night of the year. Whereas 800K people in Winnipeg have no where to go. They don't have bars, restaurants, movie theaters, absolutely nothing. In fact I googled "things to do in Winnipeg" and the list had only 2 things:

1) Go to a hockey game
2) Stay home and cry

To your point, Las Vegas, which I'm pretty sure has more to do than any city in North America, has had no problem packing the barn every night. Despite being a "non traditional hockey market"

 

[BKIslandersFan]

So out of 6-7 million people in the Atlanta are you couldn't get 16K to the arena 40 times a year because everyone is at bars every night of the year. Whereas 800K people in Winnipeg have no where to go. They don't have bars, restaurants, movie theaters, absolutely nothing. In fact I googled "things to do in Winnipeg" and the list had only 2 things:

1) Go to a hockey game
2) Stay home and cry

Missing the point as usual I see.

let me sum it up for you. Atlanta never iced a good team and people in Atlanta got better things to do then watch bad hockey. Like in every American cities. I don’t see you asking why Detroit isn’t moving. Or why Chicago hasn’t moved despite woeful attendance before they became good.

bad attendance for a bad team is hardly an Atlanta phenomenon.

and quite frankly, people selling out arenas for a bad hockey team isn’t noble. It makes them suckers.

 

[KevFu]

Obviously, KevFu, no one is going to abandon the NY market. The TV deals are exceptional. Using them in this comparison is very disingenuous... Unless you are trying to point out that EVERY market is unique.

I'm saying the concept of "Good market" and "bad market" is just silly, wrong and dumb.

A market might be WAY TOO SMALL to support a team... like Houma, Louisiana is not a place any sane person puts an NHL franchise. But once you get into the top 50 markets in the US, there's no such thing as a bad market or good market.

Minnesota and Winnipeg couldn't financially compete and lost the North Stars and Jets; But with new arenas, owners their fans don't actively hate; both markets are great.

Tampa Bay and Long Island have basically spent about equal time in their histories being some of the best run teams in hockey, and the biggest cluster Effs in hockey. (both have been owned by criminals!)

Dallas spent like 12 years around the top 10 in revenue, sold 98% of tickets.... and then Hicks bought Liverpool and they became a trainwreck for a while.

The Bay Area was like the prime example of expansion screwup with the Seals having multiple owners, moving to an hour from Cleveland and folding; and the Sharks became a rock solid stable franchise for the last 20 years or so.

Nashville was on the cusp of disaster, and then got it together.
Pittsburgh? That franchise was doomed TWICE and saved both times by Mario Lemieux (and Sidney Crosby).


A market being "Good" or "Bad" is determined by the combination of "Do they have a good, modern arena and a lease that enables them to make revenues to compete with the rest of the league?" and "Do they an owner who cares about the team and lets the fans see that they're working toward progress?"

That's how the New York market can be great, average and terrible all at the same time; how MIN/WIN can lose teams and flourish with teams; how DAL, SJ, NASH, PIT, TB, NYI can all be excellent and trainwrecks at some point over the last 30 years; And also why the Coyotes are still around in Glendale after 18 freaking years of everyone calling Time of Death on the franchise.

 

[aqib]

Missing the point as usual I see.

let me sum it up for you. Atlanta never iced a good team and people in Atlanta got better things to do then watch bad hockey. Like in every American cities. I don’t see you asking why Detroit isn’t moving. Or why Chicago hasn’t moved despite woeful attendance before they became good.

bad attendance for a bad team is hardly an Atlanta phenomenon.

and quite frankly, people selling out arenas for a bad hockey team isn’t noble. It makes them suckers.

Attendance dropped the year after they won the division. So if winning was the key you would think after the fist playoff season there would be an uptick. They even dropped from by 2K fans a game after year 1 once the novelty wore off. The Flames made the playoffs a lot and that still didn't save them. Care to explain that one?

If either Chicago or Detroit was put up for sale you would have buyers lined up within days. The Thrashers were on the market for years and no one tried to buy them in Atlanta