Why was the 1980s Norris Division so bad?

[streitz]

Uh... No. Not even close. Chicago had a lot of solid players in the 80's.

For example, Doug Wilson who won the Norris Trophy in 1982 and was an excellent blueliner throughout the decade.

Darryl Sutter was an excellent goal scorer for the Hawks. He scored 40-goals in his rookie year with the club, had 31-goal season in '82-'83 and rang up three more 20-goal seasons despite playing just 40, 59 and 49 games in those seasons.

Troy Murray was an excellent two-way center that had a 45-goal, 99-point season for Chicago and Ed Olczyk came from the US Olympic team right to the Hawks and contributed immediately before being swapped to Toronto in a deal that brought Rick Vaive to Chicago where he scored 43 goals and then got sent to Buffalo for Adam Creighton who managed 34 goals and 70 points in his first full year with the club.

Steve Thomas also came over in the Rick Vaive trade and put up 40 goals for the Hawks

Dirk Graham was an excellent defensive forward who topped out at 78 points and 33 goals his best year with Chicago and went on to become their captain (and the first African American captain in NHL history.)

There were plenty of good players in Chicago, they just weren't on the same level as the Oilers who they collided with in the playoffs on a few occasions, but really, not many teams were.

You literally just listed a bunch of average-above players every team had then wrote a little story about them to make it seem like they were better then they were.

 

[streitz]

I think the "Norris could never get past Smythe" argument is a little exaggerated. In '82, the Smythe team to beat was Vancouver, arguably the worst team ever to make the Finals (Norris lost). In '83, Edmonton had not yet won anything, and Chicago was only a few points behind them in the standings, but got swept. Yes, '84 and '85 the Norris had no hope. But then again in '86, Calgary was the competition (an 89-point team) and St.Louis took them to game 7, so could have won. Even in '90, the Oilers were only a 90-point team that nobody thought would win, and were without Gretzky, Coffey, and Fuhr. Chicago had a 2-1 lead in that series but couldn't sustain it. Finally, in '91 Minnesota made it all the way, with perhaps a weaker team than many of the 80s' teams that failed (but they faced a decimated Oilers' line-up in the third round).

Out of 12 years of divisional play the Norris literally beat the smythe 2 times. One of those being a complete fluke(91 northstars who were just as bad or worse then the 82 canucks).

 

[FerrisRox]

You literally just listed a bunch of average-above players every team had then wrote a little story about them to make it seem like they were better then they were.

Wrote a little story?

No, that wasn't a "little story" it was what they did for the Chicago Blackhawks. It didn't make them seem better than they were... it was exactly how good they were because it was their stats.

Doug Wilson's Norris trophy doesn't "make him seem better than was" it was a trophy he won as the league's best defenseman.

 

[The Panther]

Out of 12 years of divisional play the Norris literally beat the smythe 2 times. One of those being a complete fluke(91 northstars who were just as bad or worse then the 82 canucks).

I'm aware of which team won the various series, thanks.

However, my point was that although the Norris routinely lost the conference series, it could just as easily have won it in 1982, 1983, 1986, 1990 (and it did win it in 1991). So it's not like there were hopeless odds stacked against the Norris every year.

 

[streitz]

Wrote a little story?

No, that wasn't a "little story" it was what they did for the Chicago Blackhawks. It didn't make them seem better than they were... it was exactly how good they were because it was there stats.

Doug Wilson's Norris trophy doesn't "make him seem better than was" it was a trophy he won as the league's best defenseman.

As much as I loved Carlyle at no point in his career was he better then Potvin or Robinson(who both could of won the Norris the year he won). Just a parallel example.


Also no, you listed a bunch of clearly average players ( Thomas, Vaive, Graham, Sutter) then wrote fluff about them to make them seem like allstars. If they were as good as you described they wouldn't of gotten trounced everytime they left the Norris division(and sometimes IN the Norris).

 

[streitz]

I'm aware of which team won the various series, thanks.

However, my point was that although the Norris routinely lost the conference series, it could just as easily have won it in 1982, 1983, 1986, 1990 (and it did win it in 1991). So it's not like there were hopeless odds stacked against the Norris every year.

I wasn't aware a 4-1 series loss, a 4-0 sweep, and a decent 4-2 showing in 90 counts as 'could of easily won'.


Credit the the 86 blues but I think a large part of that series being so close was due to the flames being completely gassed after easily one of the most intense series in history against the dynasty oilers. Because frankly outside of Gilmour, Ramage and Federko that team wasn't good at all

 

[The Panther]

I wasn't aware a 4-1 series loss, a 4-0 sweep, and a decent 4-2 showing in 90 counts as 'could of easily won'.

If they were as good as you described they wouldn't of gotten trounced

Potvin or Robinson(who both could of won the Norris

As you make this error in a lot of your posts, please note that the correct grammar is "could HAVE + past-participle".

And yes, this bothers me.

As to your latest comment, I'm not sure what else you want me to say. You're just repeating who won the series and ignoring my points, so I guess we're done.

 

[c9777666]

One of the great ironies of the Norris Division is that the year that division finally got some serious traction and had two elite teams- Chicago/St. Louis 1991- it was way way WAY below .500 Minnesota of all teams that ended the Smythe's 8 year run of Campbell Finals wins.

(Not only that, but third place and below .500 Detroit almost had home-ice in round 2- remember, they jumped out to a 3-1 series lead on STL, We NEVER got a Red WIngs/North Stars playoff matchup and that was as close as we ever got)

(And it was the one time Chicago/St. Louis did not face off in the playoffs from 1988-1993, they probably had better versions than the ones that played before and after).

Go figure.

 

[streitz]

As you make this error in a lot of your posts, please note that the correct grammar is "could HAVE + past-participle".

And yes, this bothers me.

As to your latest comment, I'm not sure what else you want me to say. You're just repeating who won the series and ignoring my points, so I guess we're done.

Well you're trying to say weak teams who got trounced could of easily won their playoff series, which literally makes 0 sense.

 

[streitz]

One of the great ironies of the Norris Division is that the year that division finally got some serious traction and had two elite teams- Chicago/St. Louis 1991- it was way way WAY below .500 Minnesota of all teams that ended the Smythe's 8 year run of Campbell Finals wins.

(Not only that, but third place and below .500 Detroit almost had home-ice in round 2- remember, they jumped out to a 3-1 series lead on STL, We NEVER got a Red WIngs/North Stars playoff matchup and that was as close as we ever got)

(And it was the one time Chicago/St. Louis did not face off in the playoffs from 1988-1993, they probably had better versions than the ones that played before and after).

Go figure.

North stars and Wings played in 1992 =).

 

[Dr Pepper]

Looking back at Minnesota's draft history, that 1983 draft was a real snafu.

First overall pick, and they go with Brian Lawton. I know, hindsight's 20-20 and all that, but when you look at the legends taken after him?

Lafontaine at 3, Yzerman at 4....hell, there were 9 other players in the first round alone who managed more points in their career than Lawton ever got.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Looking back at Minnesota's draft history, that 1983 draft was a real snafu.

First overall pick, and they go with Brian Lawton. I know, hindsight's 20-20 and all that, but when you look at the legends taken after him?

Lafontaine at 3, Yzerman at 4....hell, there were 9 other players in the first round alone who managed more points in their career than Lawton ever got.

Central Scouting had Lawton at number one, & I think The Hockey News had him only a little lower, like at 4 or 5. He was a highly regarded prospect, & nobody was surprised when he went #1 overall - he was supposed to be a sure thing. It was not at all an unusual pick, & everybody in the hockey world at the time expected big things from Lawton. In October 82 Minnesota swapped first round picks & some players with the Pens to get the #1 draft spot in order to pick Lawton - he was already projected to go first overall at that point.

But, he wasn't like most picks at the time, he was a US high school player rather than a Canadian Major Junior player, so he came up in a bit of a different system, for starters. Add that there was a huge ton of media hype around him being the first ever American player going first overall, & that he was an American playing in the hockey mad Twin Cities - I think this had an impact on his development. Also, he was drafted as a center on a team that already had Bobby Smith & Neal Broten - and then inexplicably traded for Dennis Maruk a week after drafting Lawton. So he was coming in as an 18-year old essentially, realistically number 4 on the depth chart - but being asked to live up to his hype as #1 draft pick, during an era when 18 year old #1 picks were going directly to playing top line minutes for their teams. The Stars were also, despite their talent, a middling, struggling team that had a lot of locker room drama in this time period. Smith had demanded a trade & was shipped to the Habs early in the season, and another center - Keith Acton - joined. Also, that first season, he separated his shoulder & had an ACL tear in his knee or something - this really disrupted his season. All things considered, 31 points in 58 games under these conditions is a mark of his potential.

I think the story with Lawton is he was pushed too fast & the injuries, plus the chaotic environment on the North Stars, plus having to live up to the hype, damaged his development as a player. I always wondered how good he might have been had he played 3-4 years of college hockey like he originally intended, or if he had been drafted by a team with better development, more roster space & room to grow & be patient with his deveploment, like the Bruins.

 

[Dr Pepper]

^Damn, didn't know that. Nice write-up.

 

[FerrisRox]

I think the story with Lawton is he was pushed too fast & the injuries, plus the chaotic environment on the North Stars, plus having to live up to the hype, damaged his development as a player.

It certainly didn't help in terms of hype, expectations and pressure that Lou Nanne assigned Lawton sweater #98 and christened him "The American Gretzky."

 

[decma]

The league had nine seasons with the same divisions and scheduling matrix (82-83 through 90-91) (after Col moved to NJ and before SJ joined).

During that time there were six cases of a division having a points percentage of less than 0.450 in games against other divisions. All six were by the Norris.

Norris 87/88 .377
Norris 84/85 .385
Norris 85/86 .398
Norris 88/89 .408
Norris 83/84 .410
Norris 86/87 .435

A collective points percentage in inter-divisional games of less than 0.450 over such a large sample (240 games) is bad. Three seasons with a collective points percentage of less than 0.400 in inter-divisional games is downright remarkable.

The worst points percentages (in out of division games) for the other divisions were .458 for the Smythe (85/86), .467 for the Patrick (89/90), and .468 for the Adams (90/91).

Over the nine seasons combined, here are the total points percentages for each division in all inter-divisional games:

Adams .541
Smythe .526
Patrick .499
Norris .435

For the six seasons from 83/84 through 88/89, the Norris collectively played 0.402 hockey in games against the other three divisions (a 64-point pace).