Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[LyricalLyricist]

mb shouldn't be pursuing either of them....he should be pursuing draft picks....and thats all

What?

I'll openly say this, even if people think I'm nuts.

If you add Tavares at a reasonable cost you can compete now. The pieces you're missing after aren't earth shattering...

If you don't add Tavares, we're in limbo, please rebuild.

I just don't understand how someone can ignore the former though. A franchise goalie, a franchise C, a legit #1D, a solid scoring winger in pacioretty and then Gallagher, galchenyuk, lehkonen, shaw, drouin, etc... are all relatively young and add depth at forward. Juulsen, Mete, etc... coming up on D.

Sure, we might need another PMD but man...you can get them at deadline, for a trade, FA. You don't cave because you're missing a top 4 D or a #2 C.

C'mon. We were a decent team with Desharnais/Plekanec as top 2.

You get Tavares and whatever you draft this summer and we have a window again. I think it's so pessimistic to suggest otherwise.

Of course, being realistic would suggest getting a Tavares is a long shot so it's all moot but if you can get a franchise C you'd be crazy to rebuild. If you don't, then PLEASE rebuild!

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Depends how you define contender. If we were a contender then, why weren't we in 2015 as well? Very little changed. Galchenyuk wasn't playing center in 2014 either.

2016 we sucked due to Price injury, many said this proved we weren't an elite team and Price was the reason for our success.

2017 we had traded Subban for Weber, added Radulov.

PTS

2014: 100
2015: 110
2016: 78(Price injury year)
2017: 103

I feel as though 2017 was just as much a pretender as 2014 or 2015 really.

Look at a team like Ottawa who reached conference finals one year and bottom feed the next. It means A) parity(but lets not worry about this right now) and more importantly B) They are pretenders, just like we were.

A true contender isn't bouncing in and out of the playoffs IMO. Specifically, from playoff team to lottery team. That is sign of a pretender. One injury and we cave, whether it's Subban, Weber or whoever, we cave.

I would include 2015 as well. But Bergevin never adressed the issues that were made apparent after 2014 - like a lack of offense, which could have been helpee by placing Galchenyuk at center - but he did add Petry. And those issues were glaring in the 2015 playoffs, where the Habs took the play to the Bolts but were unable to finish. 2016 was when everything caved and Therrien should have been sacked. Despite the roster, there was no reason for this team to tank without Price as long as they had alright goaltending (which they didn't, it went from league best to league worst). 2017 served as a bounce-back but by that point, it was becoming obvious the team was going absolutely nowhere with it's pop-gun offence, which had not been adressed since 2014.

And frankly, I don't care about Ottawa or their reasons. I'm solely focused on the Habs. The 2014 team followed with a 110 points season. Part of that is certainly boosted by Price, but the idea that it was solely - as sometimes blurted out on this board - is a farce. The team was on the cusp, and we shot ourselves in the foot, face and cock.

 

[Laurentide]

The team in 2014 was very much on the brink of being a contender, if not one already. There's no doubt about it. They were 2 games away from the finals without Carey Price, had various elite pieces and a potential no.1 center in the wings. I don't even think there's a credible argument that the team wasn't there. Management blew it in spectacular fashion.

They weren't a contender as much as they were a one-year wonder. They did nothing prior to 2014 and nothing after 2014 to give anyone the impression that they were trending upward. It was just a blip, an outlier, an anomaly.

And even if Price had not been Krieder'd and the Habs had gone to the finals that year, there isn't a hope in Hades that they were going to win it. So in the end they'd end up no better than the 2011 Canucks: a one year fluke playoff run to the finals, a crushing loss with maybe a celebratory riot thrown in, followed by a decade of downhill.

Any team can get lucky one year. A true contender is one that is in contention every year.

 

[BrendanGallagher11]

Can we afford Tavares and Stastny?

 

[habsgirl5000]

Price and the Habs are married to each other for the full tenure of that contract so you'd best get used to it.

yeah....just like PK subban was too......oh wait

 

[habsgirl5000]

What?

I'll openly say this, even if people think I'm nuts.

If you add Tavares at a reasonable cost you can compete now.

compete for what?.....compete to be a wild card team?.....then yes

sorry, but adding one centerman/player doesn't bring a bottom 5 team to "contender" status

 

[Laurentide]

What?

I'll openly say this, even if people think I'm nuts.

If you add Tavares at a reasonable cost you can compete now. The pieces you're missing after aren't earth shattering...

If you don't add Tavares, we're in limbo, please rebuild.

I just don't understand how someone can ignore the former though. A franchise goalie, a franchise C, a legit #1D, a solid scoring winger in pacioretty and then Gallagher, galchenyuk, lehkonen, shaw, drouin, etc... are all relatively young and add depth at forward. Juulsen, Mete, etc... coming up on D.

Sure, we might need another PMD but man...you can get them at deadline, for a trade, FA. You don't cave because you're missing a top 4 D or a #2 C.

C'mon. We were a decent team with Desharnais/Plekanec as top 2.

You get Tavares and whatever you draft this summer and we have a window again. I think it's so pessimistic to suggest otherwise.

Of course, being realistic would suggest getting a Tavares is a long shot so it's all moot but if you can get a franchise C you'd be crazy to rebuild. If you don't, then PLEASE rebuild!

I think it's safe to assume that Tavares, if he were entertaining the thought of signing with the Habs, would only do so with the understanding that the team intended to "go for it". If they're committed to rebuilding through the draft there is zero reason to pursue Tavares and zero reason for Tavares to return their calls if they did. He already plays for a team going nowhere fast. Going to a Habs team that isn't committed to winning in the short term would be like changing four quarters for a buck. You have to give him a reason to sign with you and "We plan to suck for the next 5 years while we amass draft picks" isn't likely going to be a reason that will impress him.

I'd like to think that whatever the reasons behind the Habs having all that spare cap space (I'm going with "incompetence") that they see it now as a means to open the vault for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity like Tavares. And if they get him, they have to try and go for it. To do anything else would be wasting the opportunity.

But if they don't get him? SELL! Because no other UFA they can get will have the desired impact. Tavares is literally the ONLY free agent worth blowing your salary cap brains out for. You either get him or you save your shekels and tank. Don't waste your money on Paul Stastny or some other Plan B free agent.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I would include 2015 as well. But Bergevin never adressed the issues that were made apparent after 2014 - like a lack of offense, which could have been helpee by placing Galchenyuk at center - but he did add Petry. And those issues were glaring in the 2015 playoffs, where the Habs took the play to the Bolts but were unable to finish. 2016 was when everything caved and Therrien should have been sacked. Despite the roster, there was no reason for this team to tank without Price as long as they had alright goaltending (which they didn't, it went from league best to league worst). 2017 served as a bounce-back but by that point, it was becoming obvious the team was going absolutely nowhere with it's pop-gun offence, which had not been adressed since 2014.

And frankly, I don't care about Ottawa or their reasons. I'm solely focused on the Habs. The 2014 team followed with a 110 points season. Part of that is certainly boosted by Price, but the idea that it was solely - as sometimes blurted out on this board - is a farce. The team was on the cusp, and we shot ourselves in the foot, face and cock.

MB is a guy who did some good moves like Byron, weise for diaz, etc... but nothing impactful long term. All depth. Status quo has been our downfall.

I don't think we were a contender though. We were close though, or far. Depending how you consider the lack of a #1C to be. It has been our issue for over 2 decades...it's pathetic.

 

[Sorinth]

What?

I'll openly say this, even if people think I'm nuts.

If you add Tavares at a reasonable cost you can compete now. The pieces you're missing after aren't earth shattering...

If you don't add Tavares, we're in limbo, please rebuild.

I just don't understand how someone can ignore the former though. A franchise goalie, a franchise C, a legit #1D, a solid scoring winger in pacioretty and then Gallagher, galchenyuk, lehkonen, shaw, drouin, etc... are all relatively young and add depth at forward. Juulsen, Mete, etc... coming up on D.

Sure, we might need another PMD but man...you can get them at deadline, for a trade, FA. You don't cave because you're missing a top 4 D or a #2 C.

C'mon. We were a decent team with Desharnais/Plekanec as top 2.

You get Tavares and whatever you draft this summer and we have a window again. I think it's so pessimistic to suggest otherwise.

Of course, being realistic would suggest getting a Tavares is a long shot so it's all moot but if you can get a franchise C you'd be crazy to rebuild. If you don't, then PLEASE rebuild!

Even with Tavares we would still need to find a high end puck moving defenceman to be a contender. Weber might be a #1 guy, but he's more of a complementary guy. That said, you're right that if we get Tavares then there's no point in rebuilding.

The real problem is the timing of those decisions. If we get Tavares it makes a lot of sense to keep Pacioretty, but the time to trade Pacioretty for maximum return is at the draft, and at that point we don't know if we have Tavares or not.

It's also worth mentioning after our disaster 2011-2012 season, most people wanted us to trade all the vets for picks. Yet in hindsight it would have been a lot smarter had we gone out and signed some of the big name UFAs at the time like Parise/Suter/Jagr.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

compete for what?.....compete to be a wild card team?.....then yes

sorry, but adding one centerman/player doesn't bring a bottom 5 team to "contender" status

We had good years with Desharnais as a #1C. We were 1st in division last year without a Tavares. Do you really think we'd be a wild card team with a healthy Weber, Price and an added Tavares? C'mon.

I get that we're shitting on the team right now but be a little bit realistic here.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I think it's safe to assume that Tavares, if he were entertaining the thought of signing with the Habs, would only do so with the understanding that the team intended to "go for it". If they're committed to rebuilding through the draft there is zero reason to pursue Tavares and zero reason for Tavares to return their calls if they did. He already plays for a team going nowhere fast. Going to a Habs team that isn't committed to winning in the short term would be like changing four quarters for a buck. You have to give him a reason to sign with you and "We plan to suck for the next 5 years while we amass draft picks" isn't likely going to be a reason that will impress him.

I'd like to think that whatever the reasons behind the Habs having all that spare cap space (I'm going with "incompetence") that they see it now as a means to open the vault for a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity like Tavares. And if they get him, they have to try and go for it. To do anything else would be wasting the opportunity.

But if they don't get him? SELL! Because no other UFA they can get will have the desired impact. Tavares is literally the ONLY free agent worth blowing your salary cap brains out for. You either get him or you save your shekels and tank. Don't waste your money on Paul Stastny or some other Plan B free agent.

Pretty much. The rest make us pretenders, he puts the foundation for contender.

 

[axman88]

If Tavares would sign here...you trade Patches for a pmd (LD) or a second line center and whichever you trade him for you get the other via FA.

Shift Drouin to the wing and you've got:

Drouin-Tavares-Galchenyuk
Gallagher- New Center - Sherback
Byron - Danault - Lehkonen
Shaw - JDLR - Shaw/fill in

Weber - New PMD
Petry - Mete
Alzner - Juulsen
Benn/Schlemko

 

[Laurentide]

yeah....just like PK subban was too......oh wait

They traded PK before his deal kicked in and they traded him because they wanted him gone. They were motivated sellers. Additionally, as a non-goalie PK was actually tradable despite his huge contract. Goalies, however, as the Canucks found out with Luongo, are very difficult to move when they get paid too much money. But the point is moot because nobody in the Habs front wants Price gone in the first place and once his contract kicks in on July 1st he becomes part of the furniture. Your only hope of seeing Price in another team's jersey was if Bergy had been fired last week. A new GM with no ties to Price could have decided to move him. But Bergevin is staying and so is his meal ticket goalie. Price is Bergevin's best bet to keep this team in the hunt for a playoff spot. That's the real mandate for this team: playoff appearances. They gave up on trying to win Cups a long time ago.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Even with Tavares we would still need to find a high end puck moving defenceman to be a contender. Weber might be a #1 guy, but he's more of a complementary guy. That said, you're right that if we get Tavares then there's no point in rebuilding.

The real problem is the timing of those decisions. If we get Tavares it makes a lot of sense to keep Pacioretty, but the time to trade Pacioretty for maximum return is at the draft, and at that point we don't know if we have Tavares or not.

It's also worth mentioning after our disaster 2011-2012 season, most people wanted us to trade all the vets for picks. Yet in hindsight it would have been a lot smarter had we gone out and signed some of the big name UFAs at the time like Parise/Suter/Jagr.

IMO a team like NYI will trade Tavares ahead of July 1st if they can't sign him.

1) they get something
2) he gets an 8 year contract rather than 7.
3) the increase in a year can reduce caphit for team signing him

Just my take.

Regardless, you can trade Pacioretty for a high end puck mover if you want. Sign a Perron(or equivalent) as a sorta replacement. My only issue is not enough goal scorers on team after, mostly playmakers. I'd rather see how much max wants first and re-sign him...

Honestly it's up to MB to inquire about Tavares early and see if he can get him out early.

You're right though, some suggest we should've tanked again the year after, problem is we didn't even make moves to get better, it happened organically. MB added a Prust or wtv, Galchenyuk and Gallagher made the team, the rest is history.

 

[NotProkofievian]

We had good years with Desharnais as a #1C. We were 1st in division last year without a Tavares. Do you really think we'd be a wild card team with a healthy Weber, Price and an added Tavares? C'mon.

I get that we're ****ting on the team right now but be a little bit realistic here.

Against Toronto, Boston, and Tampa last year we had 18 out of a possible 24 points. This year we got 7. Just on that difference alone we're likely out of the playoffs. Then we got absolutely destroyed against everyone who wasn't in our division.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

People need to also realize we have a surplus of wingers.

Pacioretty
Galchenyuk
Gallagher
Drouin
Shaw
Lehkonen
Byron
Hudon
etc...

Doesn't count guys like Scherbak, McCarron, etc...

I think we can afford to package 1 or more even if it's not pacioretty.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Against Toronto, Boston, and Tampa last year we had 18 out of a possible 24 points. This year we got 7. Just on that difference alone we're likely out of the playoffs. Then we got absolutely destroyed against everyone who wasn't in our division.

Yes and? we'll get more than that if we add talented players no?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

yeah....just like PK subban was too......oh wait

Habs took an expensive long term contract back.

Sure, sell price, get someone paid 9 million back for the 'rebuild'?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Yes and? we'll get more than that if we add talented players no?

Just Tavares? We'll get more but how much more? Probably not a lot. We were getting a lot of soft points against our division while keeping our noses above water against the rest of the league. We're not getting those soft points anymore: the teams in our division are better than us, even with Tavares.

 

[BLONG7]

There are teams, that seem to be able to turn things around quickly...that's with the right GM...we are not one of those teams...there is more pain coming guys...sad to say.

 

[WinterLion]

The team in 2014 was very much on the brink of being a contender, if not one already. There's no doubt about it. They were 2 games away from the finals without Carey Price, had various elite pieces and a potential no.1 center in the wings. I don't even think there's a credible argument that the team wasn't there. Management blew it in spectacular fashion.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way. The team was good, and might have had a cinderella shot at it, but it was not built to be a regular contender. If it was then we wouldn't be having the problems we have now. I mean the team we had this year is not that different, no?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

MB is a guy who did some good moves like Byron, weise for diaz, etc... but nothing impactful long term. All depth. Status quo has been our downfall.

I don't think we were a contender though. We were close though, or far. Depending how you consider the lack of a #1C to be. It has been our issue for over 2 decades...it's pathetic.

Yeah, that's why I said we had a potential no.1 in waiting. Develop Galchenyuk properly and you're contending right now if you don't dick up your core like we did.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way. The team was good, and might have had a cinderella shot at it, but it was not built to be a regular contender. If it was then we wouldn't be having the problems we have now. I mean the team we had this year is not that different, no?

You've got to be trolling. We're done here.

 

[WinterLion]

What?

I'll openly say this, even if people think I'm nuts.

If you add Tavares at a reasonable cost you can compete now. The pieces you're missing after aren't earth shattering...

If you don't add Tavares, we're in limbo, please rebuild.

I just don't understand how someone can ignore the former though. A franchise goalie, a franchise C, a legit #1D, a solid scoring winger in pacioretty and then Gallagher, galchenyuk, lehkonen, shaw, drouin, etc... are all relatively young and add depth at forward. Juulsen, Mete, etc... coming up on D.

Sure, we might need another PMD but man...you can get them at deadline, for a trade, FA. You don't cave because you're missing a top 4 D or a #2 C.

C'mon. We were a decent team with Desharnais/Plekanec as top 2.

You get Tavares and whatever you draft this summer and we have a window again. I think it's so pessimistic to suggest otherwise.

Of course, being realistic would suggest getting a Tavares is a long shot so it's all moot but if you can get a franchise C you'd be crazy to rebuild. If you don't, then PLEASE rebuild!

Yes I agree. Tavares can help you get in the playoffs. No doubt. IF AND ONLY IF Cary Price bounces back. Either way though, the team needs to be building through the draft and it is going to still take several years for the dividends to pay off.

What I definitely don't want to see is a desperation trade or signing to get a marginal player at an inflated price.... I'm worried though.

 

[WinterLion]

You've got to be trolling.

Because I don't think the 2014 Habs were a true contender? Are you serious? I don't think you've looked around the league that much. Check out some of the teams...

Honestly man... you read too much hfboards