The topic is starting to get old. Those of us who are old enough to remember know very well why PT is not in the hhof.
I'm old enough to have to have followed Turgeon when he was active, and I suspect Frisco, Neutrinos, and many of the other Turgeon advocates were as well.
Never won anything, never considered elite. St Louis was a contender, with Hull, Pronger, MacInnis and Fuhr. With a proper no 1 center, they had the material to push for the cup.
So he was never considered elite or a proper #1 C? By whom?
Joel Quenville and Mike Keenan seem to have thought he was elite.
Joel Quenville (Jan 15, 2000, describing Turgeon's play in 99 playoffs):
"He was determined to make the team win. That's a sign of the elite players."
You could always count on the points, said Quenneville, "but he raised his game to a higher level."
Mike Keenan (Nov 3, 1996):
"A superstar centre doesn't come available that often. But he is a player you can build a franchise around."
"In my opinion, with all due respect to Bernie Federko and perhaps Red Berenson, I don't think there's ever been a better centreman in this organization, including Adam Oates."
"Red Berenson and Bernie Federko had the numbers but not the speed. They were a different generation."
"He has to be considered at least among the best. He's 27, in the prime of his career. He's never had a winger to work with like Brett Hull. He's played with teams that never made the playoffs."
"He's not the best centreman in the league - (Mario) Lemieux is the best, there's still Gretzky and Messier - but he's in the top group.''
Turgeon came up short when it mattered.
What do you mean by "when it mattered"?
In the playoffs? As has been demonstrated Turgeon's playoff numbers are comparable or better than those of many HoF inductees.
Or do you mean in games 4 to 7 of playoff series?
48 points in 49 career playoff games 4 to 7 (including the game 7 against Pit in 93 when he wasn't fully recovered from the Hunter attack).
Or do you mean in particularly important playoff games? For example:
2 pts to eliminate the Caps in game 6 in 93;
3 pts to try and stay alive in game 6 against NYR in 96 (in contrast to Damphousse, who had big games 1 and 2 and then disappeared);
3 pts in game 6 against Phoenix to force game 7 in 99;
OT goal in game 7 win (1-0) over Pho in 99; and
3 pts in game 6 against SJ to force game 7 in 01.
Or maybe you mean in close games?
Analysis by Overpass showed that Turgeon scored a disproportionately high share of his goals when the game was tied.
He didn’t win in Dallas or in Colorado. He had decent chances to do win, representing contending teams from 97 to 06.
Yeah, he was on some decent teams from 97 on. They were contending teams, but its not like he consistently played on SC favorites who got bounced early. Overall, his teams did about as expected.
In 97 the Blues were a .500 team (6 seed) and predictably lost to the eventual Cup champ Wings in R1.
In 98 the Blues were the 4 seed, swept the Kings in R1 and then lost to the 1 seed and eventual Cup champ Wings in R2 in 6.
In 99 the 5-seed Blues knocked off #4 Pho, then lost to the #1 seed and eventual Cup champ Stars in R2 in 6.
In 01 the #4 Blues beat the #5 Sharks in R1 and then lost to the #1 seed and eventual Cup champ Avs in R2 in 6.
So in those 4 playoffs everything went about as expected. The Blues were 3-0 in first round 4 vs. 5 matchups, lost to the 3 seed and eventual champs in the first round, and three times lost second round matchups against the #1 seed and eventual champ.
In 00 the #1 Blues get knocked off by #8 Sharks in a close 7-game series.
This is the only series StL lost during Turgeon's time there that they were favorites.
Is that loss attributable to Turgeon? And not the fact that their reg season leading scorer missed the entire series with a concussion? Or that Turek was bad?
With the Stars:
Missed playoffs in 02
03 they win the first round then lose in 6 to the Ana, with all 4 losses being 1-goal games.
04 they lose to higher seed Col in R1.
At this point Turgeon is well past his prime.
In an parallell universe, when St Louis beats Colorado in 2001, then taking the cup, with Turgeon as playoff mvp, he’d be a first ballot hhof.
So one good 20-game run would transform him from not being HoF worthy to being a first ballot HoF'er? I would like to think that 20 games out of 1,400 wouldn't matter that much, but perhaps you are right.