Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame? (Part 2)

[frisco]

By my count there have been 37 instances since expansion when a non-HoF guy had a 13-season span during which he was top 10 scoring (excluding guys who have not yet been Hall eligible).

Alfredsson and Turgeon each account for seven of those 37, and Alfredsson is the only one with 13-season spans in which he was top 5 .

Lecavalier and Brad Richards join Turgeon as guys with top 6 placements over a 13-season span.

Alfredsson 2_4_4_5_5_5_10
Turgeon 6_7_8_9_9_9_10
Elias 7_7_8_9
Lecavalier 6_9_10
Richards 6_10_10
Middleton 7_7
Fleury 9_10
Nicholls 10_10
Naslund 9
Roenick 9
Tkachuk 9
Goring 10
Kovalev 10
Smith 10
Whitney 10

Just to extend this post. Starting with the thirteen year period 1955-56 through 1967-68 and moving forward to the period ending in 1980-81 here's what you get:

1956-1968: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1957-1969: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1958-1970: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1959-1971: The top 12 scorers are in the Hall
1960-1972: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1961-1973: The top 12 scorers are in the Hall
1962-1974: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1963-1975: The top 13 scorers are in the Hall
1964-1976: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1965-1977: Eight of top 10 scorers are in the Hall. Ken Hodge (8), Pit Martin (10).
1966-1978: Nine of top 10 scorers are in the Hall. Ken Hodge (8).
1967-1979: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1968-1980: The top 13 scorers are in the Hall.
1969-1981: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall.

My Best-Carey

 

[micormic79]

Just to extend this post. Starting with the thirteen year period 1955-56 through 1967-68 and moving forward to the period ending in 1980-81 here's what you get:

1956-1968: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1957-1969: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1958-1970: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1959-1971: The top 12 scorers are in the Hall
1960-1972: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1961-1973: The top 12 scorers are in the Hall
1962-1974: The top 11 scorers are in the Hall
1963-1975: The top 13 scorers are in the Hall
1964-1976: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1965-1977: Eight of top 10 scorers are in the Hall. Ken Hodge (8), Pit Martin (10).
1966-1978: Nine of top 10 scorers are in the Hall. Ken Hodge (8).
1967-1979: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall
1968-1980: The top 13 scorers are in the Hall.
1969-1981: The top 10 scorers are in the Hall.

My Best-Carey

Yeah, the hhof is joke tier standards. What's your point?

 

[micormic79]

And Kariya entered the league as a better player than Turgeon ever was?!? That's ludicrous really. Kariya entered the league at age 20 and finished 47th in league scoring. Turgeon had 13 seasons where he finished higher.

You're right. By Kariya's 2nd season he was better then Turgeon ever was.




Toughest thing Turgeon ever did, try and pick a fight with Tony freaking Hrkac and ended up getting knocked out.

 

[Neutrinos]

Personally, I don't care about a player's toughness, but why does that seem to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to Turgeon?

I don't recall anyone posting this embellishment from Gretzky in an attempt to tarnish his legacy:

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Personally, I don't care about a player's toughness, but why does that seem to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to Turgeon?

I don't recall anyone posting this embellishment from Gretzky in an attempt to tarnish his legacy:

Because strictly from an offensive standpoint, Turgeon is borderline, so you start to look at non-offensive things, where he was terrible.

That said, he's basically the Housley of forwards, so the HHOF committee might eventually induct him.

 

[micormic79]

Personally, I don't care about a player's toughness, but why does that seem to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to Turgeon?

I don't recall anyone posting this embellishment from Gretzky in an attempt to tarnish his legacy:

Because as soft as Gretzky was he also scored 200 points a year and 40+ in multiple playoffs.


Also as someone who saw both their careers, I'd honestly say Turgeon was softer then Gretzky.

 

[Staniowski]

Turgeon is the best offensive forward in NHL history (up to, and including, his era) who is not in the HHOF.

He was a better hockey player than many players who are already inducted in the Hall.

And he is the only HHOF-eligible player in NHL history who finished top-10 in PPG 5 times in his career and is not in the HHOF. (And he did this in the most talent-rich era in NHL history).

Turgeon was a great hockey player.

For these reasons, it is very likely that he will be inducted. Really, it's almost certain. There is almost nobody of the previous generations of the NHL, of Turgeon's quality, who hasn't been inducted.

 

[micormic79]

Turgeon is the best offensive forward in NHL history (up to, and including, his era) who is not in the HHOF.

He was a better hockey player than many players who are already inducted in the Hall.

And he is the only HHOF-eligible player in NHL history who finished top-10 in PPG 5 times in his career and is not in the HHOF. (And he did this in the most talent-rich era in NHL history).

Turgeon was a great hockey player.

For these reasons, it is very likely that he will be inducted. Really, it's almost certain. There is almost nobody of the previous generations of the NHL, of Turgeon's quality, who hasn't been inducted.

Theo Fleury, Reonick, Nicholls and Brind'Amour, Bobby Smith,Propp, Larmer were all more valuable then Turgeon and none of them are in.


Though I do agree, plenty of worse players then Turgeon are in the HHOF. Which is why I think he'll be inducted, which will make me puke a little bit(but less then Housley did).

 

[Big Phil]

Personally, I don't care about a player's toughness, but why does that seem to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to Turgeon?

I don't recall anyone posting this embellishment from Gretzky in an attempt to tarnish his legacy:

Could it be because he won 10 scoring titles, owns 60 NHL records, won 4 Cups, is considered the best playoff performer of all-time and is perhaps only equalled to Babe Ruth as a player who dominated his sport?

Gretzky was criticized by haters his entire career because he didn't fight, or couldn't. So yeah, despite all of that, he got that from fans.

 

[Big Phil]

All 500+ goal-scorers eventually get inducted. Blame the international players category and the addition of the women category for the long wait.

It doesn't mean they should. I'll name some guys that should have either never been inducted who are in the 500+ club or who shouldn't in the future.

Already in: Andreychuk, Nieuwendyk

Not in yet and shouldn't be: Bondra, Marleau, Verbeek, Roenick, Turgeon, Tkachuk.

It is possible Eric Staal cracks 500 goals. There are certain names such as Marleau that go to show you that certain totals need context and that you can reach these totals without being a great player but playing a long time with decent to good goal totals. This doesn't make you great. There are levels that are hard to ignore. 708 goals for Gartner and doing it the right way by now playing when he couldn't score anymore and padding his stats was the right way to get into the HHOF.

As I mentioned, if you pick out Marchand's best performances and turn a blind eye to his playoff misses and worst seasons and then do the opposite regarding Turgeon, Marchand comes out ahead. That just stands to reason.

If you just focus on their individual performances over their careers (Marchand 83 points in 108. Turgeon 97 points in 109) then it comes more balanced.

My Best-Carey

You get a lot more reverence when you have playoff runs that were great rather than a bunch that no one remembers and usually resulted in a first round exit. People remember the players that stepped up in big games..............and they remember the players who didn't as well. The Sedins will be remembered for the latter. Turgeon is remembered for the latter. All of this is based on talent in comparison to playoff resumes.

I'll echo that this looks like stat watching. Just to pick one guy out of the pack, Paul Kariya was at a level well above any Turgeon ever reached before he got his head taken off by Gary Suter in one of the most chicken-**** plays I've ever seen. After that, Kariya still basically produced what Turgeon was at the same ages, though in a lower-scoring league.

The reason I was comparing Mogilny to Turgeon was not based on their careers so much, but how when they were playing you never would have thought of them as HHOFers and for different reasons. Mogilny had a notorious reputation for playing only when he wanted to (contract years) and Turgeon was well known as someone who was too soft and never delivered for his team when it mattered.

In retirement it is like people gloss over these big flaws about them.

 

[Neutrinos]

Could it be because he won 10 scoring titles, owns 60 NHL records, won 4 Cups, is considered the best playoff performer of all-time and is perhaps only equalled to Babe Ruth as a player who dominated his sport?

Gretzky was criticized by haters his entire career because he didn't fight, or couldn't. So yeah, despite all of that, he got that from fans.

The issue highlighted in the video above isn't that Gretzky wouldn't - or couldn't - fight, but rather his embellishment after being hit

 

[micormic79]

The issue highlighted in the video above isn't that Gretzky wouldn't - or couldn't - fight, but rather his embellishment after being hit

Some people(myself included) has a nickname for him. 'Whine' Gretzky.
However you completely ignored what Phil said. People don't care because Gretzky was scoring 200 points and dominating in the playoffs.

Turgeon was a good offensive player but didn't dominate anything. Ever, really. Maybe the Q as a junior.

 

[frisco]

Turgeon was a guy who played the game at the highest level and who didn't take bad penalties, was a clean player, never dirty and wasn't trying to hurt guys on the ice. Irrational hatred for this type of player is kind of sad. If guys like Marchand are "revered" over players like Turgeon what does that really say?

Turgeon scored 97 points in 109 playoff games. That's good production for a guy who was paid to produce. In 2001, the Blues beat San Jose, swept Dallas (with Hull, Belfour, Nieuwendyk, Zubov, Modano), and then lost to Avalanche (who won the Cup) with Patrick Roy despite outshooting Colorado 170-145. The Blues goalie that year was Roman Turek. Turgeon led the way for the Blues with 15 points in 15 games and a +8.

Brad Marchand scores 4 goals in 22 games in the 2013 playoffs. He is pointless in a 6-game Finals loss to Chicago. But the narrative on this thread is, "Revered Marchand leads Boston to the Finals".

My Best-Carey

 

[micormic79]

Turgeon was a guy who played the game at the highest level and who didn't take bad penalties, was a clean player, never dirty and wasn't trying to hurt guys on the ice. Irrational hatred for this type of player is kind of sad. If guys like Marchand are "revered" over players like Turgeon what does that really say?
Turgeon scored 97 points in 109 playoff games. That's good production for a guy who was paid to produce. In 2001, the Blues beat San Jose, swept Dallas (with Hull, Belfour, Nieuwendyk, Zubov, Modano), and then lost to Avalanche (who won the Cup) with Patrick Roy despite outshooting Colorado 170-145. The Blues goalie that year was Roman Turek. Turgeon led the way for the Blues with 15 points in 15 games and a +8.
Brad Marchand scores 4 goals in 22 games in the 2013 playoffs. He is pointless in a 6-game Finals loss to Chicago. But the narrative on this thread is, "Revered Marchand leads Boston to the Finals".

I'm not a fan of Marchand but if I was trying to build a winning team I'd take him. I guess 'revered Marchand who's made 3 trips to the finals, winning 1 cup' has a nicer ring to it then.

Pierre 'Went to the conference finals twice, once while injured and spent the rest of his career being dominated in the 1st or 2nd round' Turgeon.



Guy Lafleur wasn't out there lighting guys up. He played, he scored, he was clutch but most importantly he played the game like a man. Turgeon played like a mouse. The people criticizing Turgeon aren't doing it because he wasn't out there breaking bones. Like I said we all saw him play, he didn't play that long ago.


Pierre could be the nicest guy in the world. I've never met him, I don't know him personally so I have no idea. As a hockey player however he left a lot to be desired given both his talent and the opportunities allotted to him.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I know this may have been posted much earlier, but I was curious to hear of some guys who are already in the HHOF whom all of you think Turgeon is better than?

 

[Florbalista]

You're right. By Kariya's 2nd season he was better then Turgeon ever was.

What is this based on? Before the Selanne trade, Kariya was the 14th most productive player in the league. And Turgeon was right behind him. Turgeon 1996 was surely not the best version of himself. So how was Kariya that year better than Turgeon ever was?

It makes little sense.

 

[Big Phil]

What is this based on? Before the Selanne trade, Kariya was the 14th most productive player in the league. And Turgeon was right behind him. Turgeon 1996 was surely not the best version of himself. So how was Kariya that year better than Turgeon ever was?

It makes little sense.

I think Turgeon in 1996 is almost as good as he got. 1993 he was better, sure. But 1996 is easily one of his better seasons and you can argue his best after 1993.

Guy Lafleur wasn't out there lighting guys up. He played, he scored, he was clutch but most importantly he played the game like a man. Turgeon played like a mouse. The people criticizing Turgeon aren't doing it because he wasn't out there breaking bones. Like I said we all saw him play, he didn't play that long ago.


Pierre could be the nicest guy in the world. I've never met him, I don't know him personally so I have no idea. As a hockey player however he left a lot to be desired given both his talent and the opportunities allotted to him.

I believe Turgeon's daughter died in a car accident in 2010. As a father that is unimaginable to even begin to think about that. So yeah, no one hates the guy as a person. I think we tend to think everything is personal here. Sean Avery was a guy that people personally did NOT like as a person. I can name others. But Pierre Turgeon was not the type of PERSON you hated.

But let's separate that when we evaluate him as a hockey player. I'll agree with the "mouse" thing. The words "perimeter player" come to mind every time I think about his career. Even at the time, I'd have used words like that while his career was going on. In the 1990s, there was a reason he just wasn't revered the way other centres were.

 

[Big Phil]

I know this may have been posted much earlier, but I was curious to hear of some guys who are already in the HHOF whom all of you think Turgeon is better than?

I am not one who likes using this method to prove a guy should be in the HHOF because I like a player getting in on his own merit, but yeah, there are multiple forwards who Turgeon was better than and had a better career than, who are in the HHOF.

I think he had a better career than Clark Gillies for example. I think you can argue Joe Nieuwendyk was inferior to him. Dave Andreychuk comes to mind too. I would say Dick Duff as well. Most of the usual suspects. But I wouldn't have put these guys in the HHOF either.

Turgeon was a guy who played the game at the highest level and who didn't take bad penalties, was a clean player, never dirty and wasn't trying to hurt guys on the ice. Irrational hatred for this type of player is kind of sad. If guys like Marchand are "revered" over players like Turgeon what does that really say?

Brad Marchand scores 4 goals in 22 games in the 2013 playoffs. He is pointless in a 6-game Finals loss to Chicago. But the narrative on this thread is, "Revered Marchand leads Boston to the Finals".

My Best-Carey

It isn't just Marchand, it is any sort of player that has shown they can get the job done. Think about the NFL. There are all-time great quarterbacks who did not win a ton in the playoffs but they did it once. Steve Young, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers come to mind, heck Brett Favre comes to mind, as a QB who won just one Super Bowl and never won again. Yet we all know they can do it, because they did. They tend to get the benefit of the doubt a bit more. You would take their playoff careers in a heartbeat over Donovan McNabb's. McNabb took the Eagles deep many times but never one. Actually, Jay Cutler would be a better example for Turgeon. Frustrated his own fan base, his demeanour made you think he was mailing it in.

No, Marchand is not like those QBs, but I am sure you get the point. Maybe it is the Leaf fan in me, but Marchand is a complete pain in the side to us. 2018 he comes through, 2019 he comes through. It is Game 6 in 2019 and Boston is facing elimination and they are in Toronto. Marchand gets 3 points in the win. Game 7 2011 Cup final, 3 points. Embarasses Sedin at the end of Game 6 by punching him repeatedly. Like the guy or not, he does what it takes to win. He had a "meh" Cup final in 2019, but his overall postseason was very good and higher than anything Turgeon achieved.

This is why people tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[frisco]

This is why people tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Marchand has had a great career in the playoffs. That's why it is a little odd to see you constantly demean someone with superior production than him.

My Best-Carey

 

[JianYang]

Turgeon was a guy who played the game at the highest level and who didn't take bad penalties, was a clean player, never dirty and wasn't trying to hurt guys on the ice. Irrational hatred for this type of player is kind of sad. If guys like Marchand are "revered" over players like Turgeon what does that really say?

Turgeon scored 97 points in 109 playoff games. That's good production for a guy who was paid to produce. In 2001, the Blues beat San Jose, swept Dallas (with Hull, Belfour, Nieuwendyk, Zubov, Modano), and then lost to Avalanche (who won the Cup) with Patrick Roy despite outshooting Colorado 170-145. The Blues goalie that year was Roman Turek. Turgeon led the way for the Blues with 15 points in 15 games and a +8.

Brad Marchand scores 4 goals in 22 games in the 2013 playoffs. He is pointless in a 6-game Finals loss to Chicago. But the narrative on this thread is, "Revered Marchand leads Boston to the Finals".

My Best-Carey

Yeah turek was awful. Turgeon has done his fair share to get it in, but the selection committee also cares about the trophies, both individual, and team.

Turgeon wasn't always dealt the greatest hand either. His time in st Louis was probably his best teams. They were part of that big 4 in the juggernaut west, and they were the one team out of them that couldn't win the cup. Turek was definitely an issue.

They even pushed the wings to the brink in the middle of their peak, with Jon Casey.

 

[Big Phil]

Yeah turek was awful. Turgeon has done his fair share to get it in, but the selection committee also cares about the trophies, both individual, and team.

Turgeon wasn't always dealt the greatest hand either. His time in st Louis was probably his best teams. They were part of that big 4 in the juggernaut west, and they were the one team out of them that couldn't win the cup. Turek was definitely an issue.

They even pushed the wings to the brink in the middle of their peak, with Jon Casey.

That was 1996 and Turgeon was on the Habs. Gretzky was the Blues top centre in the 1996 playoffs.

Marchand has had a great career in the playoffs. That's why it is a little odd to see you constantly demean someone with superior production than him.

My Best-Carey

I am not saying Marchand will end up getting into the HHOF while Turgeon doesn't. He needs seasons like he had this year and over the last 3-4 to get in and he's 31, so we'll see. I am just saying he does check off some boxes that Turgeon doesn't when it comes to playing in the spring. What I think Turgeon lacks is that when the playoffs came it didn't seem like he punched at his own weight class. 20 years in the NHL and the best memory in the playoffs we have of him is when Hunter cheapshotted him.

 

[Bluesguru]

That was 1996 and Turgeon was on the Habs. Gretzky was the Blues top centre in the 1996 playoffs.

When the Blues acquired Turgeon the following year, Mike Keenan announced the organization just acquired the Blues franchise their greatest Center ever. This was an obvious jab taken by Keenan towards Gretzky as their relationship didn’t end well in St. Louis.

 

[frisco]

But let's separate that when we evaluate him as a hockey player. I'll agree with the "mouse" thing. The words "perimeter player" come to mind every time I think about his career. Even at the time, I'd have used words like that while his career was going on. In the 1990s, there was a reason he just wasn't revered the way other centres were.

What you're really saying is Turgeon floated, was soft, a perimeter player, choker, etc., and he still managed to score 1327 points. He did that on pure talent alone? Could he have had what, 1800-2000 points, had he had not been soft and a "mouse"-like player? I'm a pretty big Turgeon fan and as much ability as he was gifted with I don't think he could have produced at Jagr, Bobby Hull-like levels. I think he maximized his talent as much as he could. Therefore, I disagree with your premise. You just can't be as awful as people are saying and put up those kind of numbers and have that long of a career. I don't see him as an underachiever. You seem to be implying he'd be up there with Mario or something had he had some grit. I just don't see it.

BTW, "revered" is really a strange term to use when evaluating hockey players. I don't have the faintest clue what a player has to do to get into your "revered" category. Is it an all or nothing thing? Can someone be a little revered? Are their levels of reverence? Does constantly licking and going after the knees of an opponent help their reverence ratings?

My Best-Carey

 

[trentmccleary]

What you're really saying is Turgeon floated, was soft, a perimeter player, choker, etc., and he still managed to score 1327 points. He did that on pure talent alone? Could he have had what, 1800-2000 points, had he had not been soft and a "mouse"-like player?

Winning board battles, coming back hard on the backcheck, blocking shots, stealing pucks, etc. There are many things in the game that involve hard work and/or toughness that don't result in points (but can improve your chances of winning).

 

[Big Phil]

What you're really saying is Turgeon floated, was soft, a perimeter player, choker, etc., and he still managed to score 1327 points. He did that on pure talent alone? Could he have had what, 1800-2000 points, had he had not been soft and a "mouse"-like player? I'm a pretty big Turgeon fan and as much ability as he was gifted with I don't think he could have produced at Jagr, Bobby Hull-like levels. I think he maximized his talent as much as he could. Therefore, I disagree with your premise. You just can't be as awful as people are saying and put up those kind of numbers and have that long of a career. I don't see him as an underachiever. You seem to be implying he'd be up there with Mario or something had he had some grit. I just don't see it.

BTW, "revered" is really a strange term to use when evaluating hockey players. I don't have the faintest clue what a player has to do to get into your "revered" category. Is it an all or nothing thing? Can someone be a little revered? Are their levels of reverence? Does constantly licking and going after the knees of an opponent help their reverence ratings?

My Best-Carey

I've said before that Turgeon is a Housley of forwards. That is still true in a way, but he is also a Chris Osgood of forwards. There might be a time when Osgood gets into the HHOF because it will be 30-40 years after he finished playing and there are some shiny numbers out of context that a committee who never saw him play might just as well assume he was an elite goalie.

We saw Osgood play. He was a "good" goalie and that's about it. To mention he was an elite goalie is just false because most of us saw his career and you just never thought that when watching him play.

Conversely with Turgeon most of us saw him play too and remember the NHL at that time. He was well down the totem pole when it came to the best centres in the NHL and to think of him as a star or a future HHOFer just wasn't something you thought about. If this is 1999 you don't think of him as a future HHOFer. 20 years later he is getting more love and most of that has to do with the fact that people have glossed over things about his career. So if he gets in, this will be the reason why. But he's an Osgood-type.