Why is the OHL stalling on realignment

[Otto]

Just want to point out that Owen Sound's and Soo's closest opponents are currently in another conference. Erie's three closest opponents are also in another conference.

Right, but the poster is trying to create new divisions based on geography. And their proposal doesn't solve that problem. It just creates new ones.

 

[Otto]

Using @Hammer9001 's chart lets look at the closest 4 teams to each team

The # of times each team shows among the closest 4 to another

Mississauga 10
Guelph 8
Hamilton 7
London 6
Kitchener 6
Oshawa 6
Barrie 5
Peterborough 4
Sarnia 4
Flint 4
Saginaw 4
Windsor 3
North Bay 3
Kingston 2
Niagara 2
Sudbury 2
Owen Sound 2
Sault Ste Marie 1
Ottawa 1
Erie 0

Now, since Owen Sound is a hot topic of discussion here let's look at the two teams that list the Attack as among their top 4 closest teams, Barrie (123) & Sudbury (384).. the first instinct may to look at that and say Great! Move 'em! However when you look at Owen Sounds closest 4 teams , Barrie is on the list, but so is Guelph (140, Kitchener (148) and Mississauga (161) All more than 200km less than Sudbury. In fact.. there are 8 other teams closer to Owen Sound than Sudbury is (12 total) It makes zero sense to Have Sudbury in the same division as Owen Sound.

The fact that Mississauga & Hamilton are #s 1 & 3 on the list tells me that they are not hard done by and there is no need to do any adjusting.

 

[Otto]

I suppose we could re-design the league using the teams in reverse order on the chart

Division 1

Erie
Guelph
Niagara
Mississauga
Hamilton

Division 2

Ottawa
North Bay
Oshawa
Peterborough
Kingston

Division 3

Sault Ste Marie
Flint
Saginaw
Sudbury
Sarnia

Division 4

Windsor
Owen Sound
London
Kitchener
Barrie

 

[HockeyPops]

Now, since Owen Sound is a hot topic of discussion here let's look at the two teams that list the Attack as among their top 4 closest teams, Barrie (123) & Sudbury (384).. the first instinct may to look at that and say Great! Move 'em! However when you look at Owen Sounds closest 4 teams , Barrie is on the list, but so is Guelph (140, Kitchener (148) and Mississauga (161) All more than 200km less than Sudbury. In fact.. there are 8 other teams closer to Owen Sound than Sudbury is (12 total) It makes zero sense to Have Sudbury in the same division as Owen Sound.

The fact that Mississauga & Hamilton are #s 1 & 3 on the list tells me that they are not hard done by and there is no need to do any adjusting.

Owen Sound is also in the bottom half when sorted by travel, with not even half the travel that the Soo has. I don't think optimizing travel in the league has much to do with ensuring Owen Sound doesn't play Sudbury.

 

[Otto]

Owen Sound is also in the bottom half when sorted by travel, with not even half the travel that the Soo has. I don't think optimizing travel in the league has much to do with ensuring Owen Sound doesn't play Sudbury.

In this thread it seems to be about catering to Mississauga and Hamilton.. which as we can see really have nothing to complain about

 

[OMG67]

I don’t know why I even bother to reply to these threads but it is my kryptonite I guess.

What is most misunderstood is there are Geographical outlier teams that get punched in the face because they are outlier teams. They will always be outlier teams. They will face the brunt of the effects of geography. Those teams entered the league understanding their situation.

The league does accommodate as best it can by shying away from the balanced schedule. This helps accommodate teams that have close teams in an alternate conference which with a balanced schedule would make travel more difficult.

There is also a lot of confusion based on individual distances from point A to point B. Teams do not travel back and forth for each game. They do road trips. The key is the amount of KM’s they put in between those games, not the amount of KM’s they put in to get there.

There are outposts in this league. The longest distance between two points is SSM to Erie. Even though those two teams are in the same conference and should play each other 4 times, they only play each other twice. SSM goes to Erie for game one and then to MIS and HAM to round out the weekend. This allows Erie to play games agaisnt closer competitors as well as SSM to do the same. SSM closest competitor is SBY. They should play Sudbury twice per year but they play each other six times. UNBALANCED SCHEDULE.

On the topic of SSM, they only have THREE road games where they are not doing a multi-game road trip. It costs them extra $$$ for hotels but it heavily reduces the burden of total distance. Conversely, Mississauga only has FIVE multi-game road trips the entire season. The vast majority of the teams for them are within a proximity that they can go back and forth without much of an issue at all.

I think people look too much at a map instead of taking the time to dive into the schedule. I’m sure if we were to do a deep dive into total mileage traveled over a full seasons or each team, it would not be as big of a difference as many think. You may even see some oddities that you wouldn’t have guessed.

 

[Savard18]

The easiest solution would probably be to just ban the bi-annual HFBoards OHL realignment thread. It’s like reading 20 grown men trying to explain their breakthrough never thought of before tic-tac-toe strategy. Whatever you’re thinking of posting? It’s already been thought of and posted before. Twice. Then a third time. Then a fourth time. Then a fifth time. Then…..

 

[Hammer9001]

Using @Hammer9001 's chart lets look at the closest 4 teams to each team

The # of times each team shows among the closest 4 to another

Mississauga 10
Guelph 8
Hamilton 7
London 6
Kitchener 6
Oshawa 6
Barrie 5
Peterborough 4
Sarnia 4
Flint 4
Saginaw 4
Windsor 3
North Bay 3
Kingston 2
Niagara 2
Sudbury 2
Owen Sound 2
Sault Ste Marie 1
Ottawa 1
Erie 0

Now, since Owen Sound is a hot topic of discussion here let's look at the two teams that list the Attack as among their top 4 closest teams, Barrie (123) & Sudbury (384).. the first instinct may to look at that and say Great! Move 'em! However when you look at Owen Sounds closest 4 teams , Barrie is on the list, but so is Guelph (140, Kitchener (148) and Mississauga (161) All more than 200km less than Sudbury. In fact.. there are 8 other teams closer to Owen Sound than Sudbury is (12 total) It makes zero sense to Have Sudbury in the same division as Owen Sound.

The fact that Mississauga & Hamilton are #s 1 & 3 on the list tells me that they are not hard done by and there is no need to do any adjusting.

To be fair, my point of the swap had nothing to do with helping Mississauga or Hamilton but helping Kingston and Ottawa who as you point out, are tied for the 2nd worse and 3rd worst, which again, is the only realignment that I'd get behind and even then, I'm certainly not screaming off the rooftops for it to happen.

 

[dirty12]

Owen Sound is also in the bottom half when sorted by travel, with not even half the travel that the Soo has. I don't think optimizing travel in the league has much to do with ensuring Owen Sound doesn't play Sudbury.

Maybe the best thing is be rid of divisions altogether and go with an evenly as possible unbalanced schedule.
I agree with OMG67; rivalry games and properly scheduled road trips greatly helps balance distance for outliers. And do not discount the benefit of the home schedule for outliers. The ‘67s & Wolves’ for example get 2:p Sunday games vs teams playing 3 in 2.5-3.5 days. I am most familiar with the wolves schedule. I believe it just doesn’t get better than hosting teams Friday that played NB or Barrie Thursday, then 2:p Sunday host teams played Saturday in Barrie or the Soo.
Is the once per season trip to OS then Guelph-Kitchener via Hwy 6 any tougher than those teams to NB-SBY-SSM? The hounds can make it a four game in five day Hwy 6 week including Hamilton to further cut travel. They can do the same for Saginaw-Flint-Sarnia-Windsor. One gruelling trip followed by a couple of favourable weeks at home doesn’t seem so bad.
It’s probably a benefit for SSM, SBY, Ottawa being outliers.

 

[HockeyPops]

I have never seen the Greyhounds play a 4 in 5. Probably a reason for it. Actually, any of the 20 teams could play a 4 in 5 if they wanted to. Don't see it happen though.

It’s probably a benefit for SSM, SBY, Ottawa being outliers.

If you are saying that these teams net benefit by being located where they are because of the excess travel, I think that is quite the leap to make, and not sure I am making the jump with you.

 

[OMG67]

I have never seen the Greyhounds play a 4 in 5. Probably a reason for it. Actually, any of the 20 teams could play a 4 in 5 if they wanted to. Don't see it happen though.

If you are saying that these teams net benefit by being located where they are because of the excess travel, I think that is quite the leap to make, and not sure I am making the jump with you.

It is actually not that big of a leap.

Ottawa doesn’t benefit as much as they used to but it was very common for Ottawa to host teams on Friday nights after playing in Peterborough on Thursdays. It was almost a win in the bag on Sunday afternoons against Western division clubs. Brian Kilrea acknowledges that the Friday and Sunday home schedule was a huge benefit.

Ottawa has gotten away from that quite a bit now since they moved back to the redeveloped Landsdowne because of other internal issues.

So, as Dirty said, there were benefits in Ottawa. Still some on Sunday afternoons. Less so across the board compared to the past.

 

[dirty12]

I have never seen the Greyhounds play a 4 in 5. Probably a reason for it. Actually, any of the 20 teams could play a 4 in 5 if they wanted to. Don't see it happen though.

Detrimental to schooling is the main reason.

If you are saying that these teams net benefit by being located where they are because of the excess travel, I think that is quite the leap to make, and not sure I am making the jump with you.

You don’t have to accept that there is benefit to hosting games in a distant outpost. I expect you wouldn’t since it goes against the fabric of being a Soo-ite having to overcome the disadvantages of small, overlooked or ignored, and distant.
But I will not accept it. I cannot in good conscience deny the net benefit of the wolves change from Friday-Saturday to Friday-2:p Sunday. The vast majority of home games there is an opponent with bus legs that had played the day previously now.

 

[HockeyPops]

The vast majority of home games there is an opponent with bus legs that had played the day previously now.

Still not buying it, sorry. The vast amount of away trips the Greyhounds have bus legs for a game, too. Don't believe there is any advantage to being the most remote team, every advantage is also a disadvantage.

Glad you can simply discount the opinion of any Soo-ite though if it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[dirty12]

Still not buying it, sorry. The vast amount of away trips the Greyhounds have bus legs for a game, too. Don't believe there is any advantage to being the most remote team, every advantage is also a disadvantage.

Agree, for a game.
The Soo, Barrie or NB Thursday, SBY or Soo Friday, Soo or Barrie Saturday, then Soo, NB or SBY Sunday in 3-4 days is just as difficult or more than almost all of the 3 games in 4-5 days for west division teams which have Wednesday games for the further travelling teams.
I have not looked Erie’s schedule yet. Outside of that trip, I’m convinced the northern swing is the most difficult trip.

Glad you can simply discount the opinion of any Soo-ite though if it doesn't fit your narrative.

For crying out loud!

 

[OMG67]

Still not buying it, sorry. The vast amount of away trips the Greyhounds have bus legs for a game, too. Don't believe there is any advantage to being the most remote team, every advantage is also a disadvantage.

Glad you can simply discount the opinion of any Soo-ite though if it doesn't fit your narrative.

Hey Pops!

As I mentioned, even Brian Kilrea recognized the advantage and always pushed for Friday night and Sunday afternoon scheduling for the 67’s home games. He felt there was a decided advantage on Sunday afternoon games against the Western Conference teams. The East Division isn’t a tightly packed so teams would often play in PEterborough on Thursday, Ottawa on Friday and Kingston on Sunday. Or, they would play Peterborough on Thursday, Kingston on Friday or Saturday and then Ottawa on Sunday. Those Sunday games were always a bit one sided in favour of Ottawa. A lot of that had to do with it being the final game on the weekend roadie for the opposition. In many cases, they’d have played on Saturday in Kingston and then hopped the bus Sunday morning for the trip to Ottawa. I’m not going to say the players were a little worse for wear because of a night out in Kingston but they were sometimes a little worse for wear.

So, what Dirty is trying to say is there are disadvantages while on the road for the outlier teams. No dispute. But those teams have a decided advantage at home when other road weary teams come to town, especially on Sunday afternoons. More so than say Guelph who would face a lot of teams coming in for the one off game not in conjunction with a long road trip.

 

[southsideIrish]

Might be dreaming a pipedream there. Even if they could put Thunder Bay in the OHL they would have to add places like Cochrane and Espanola or Timmins. Who all have NOJHL teams now.

Unless the OHL is going to buy an airline for teams to use Thunder Bay might as well be in the Artic Circle for OHL consideration. They're closer to Winnipeg then any OHL city now that would be like putting an OHL team in Atlanta, GA.

It wouldn't make sense for anyone and every team would have to play double or triple-headers which would financially kill the league.

Obviously I hit the smiley instead of the sarcasm emoji. My post was in jest...

 

[Buttsy]

I got it, design the schedule incorporating an alphabetical approach …..

 

[sbpointer]

How do we get the Brantford Bulldogs into the Mid West Division that would be awesome for local rivalry perspective..

Sorry Erie you're out...

 

[Otto]

I got it, design the schedule incorporating an alphabetical approach …..

Let the teams pick their own opponents!

 

[thenumbersguy]

With the Bulldogs moving to Brantford next season it doesn't make sense that they stay in the East division given how close they are to Niagara, Guelph and Kitchener. I think if I was the league I would realign the divisions this way.

Eastern Conference

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Mississauga

North
SSM
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound

Western Conference

South
Kitchener
Guelph
Brantford (Hamilton)
Niagara
Erie

West
Flint
Saginaw
Sarnia
Windsor
London

I know some rivalries with be broken up but they could add some games to those match ups to make up for the changes.

 

[From Up Top]

With the Bulldogs moving to Brantford next season it doesn't make sense that they stay in the East division given how close they are to Niagara, Guelph and Kitchener. I think if I was the league I would realign the divisions this way.

Eastern Conference

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Mississauga

North
SSM
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound

Western Conference

South
Kitchener
Guelph
Brantford (Hamilton)
Niagara
Erie

West
Flint
Saginaw
Sarnia
Windsor
London

I know some rivalries with be broken up but they could add some games to those match ups to make up for the changes.

A north division with Sault Ste. Marie and Owen Sound together would never work based on travel time.

The simplest thing to do is to switch Brantford and Mississauga... But with uncertainty with the Steelheads future, I don't see the league making sort of realignment changes at this time.

 

[Otto]

I think people forget that the Chi Chi Man shuts down in the winter

 

[HockeyPops]

I think people forget that the Chi Chi Man shuts down in the winter

Even when the Chi-Cheemaun is running, the trip is not much quicker taking the ferry. In fact, it can take longer because it only departs at set times.

 

[OMG67]

With the Bulldogs moving to Brantford next season it doesn't make sense that they stay in the East division given how close they are to Niagara, Guelph and Kitchener. I think if I was the league I would realign the divisions this way.

Eastern Conference

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Mississauga

North
SSM
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound

Western Conference

South
Kitchener
Guelph
Brantford (Hamilton)
Niagara
Erie

West
Flint
Saginaw
Sarnia
Windsor
London

I know some rivalries with be broken up but they could add some games to those match ups to make up for the changes.

Will people please stop with the nonsense of a North Division! It makes zero sense. It is 5 hours from Windsor to SSM…dead south. The Northern Division makes no sense no matter how you configure four teams. The drive to Barrie as the 4th team is 6 hours. The 5th team is around 7.5 hours. It is DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB. STOP.

 

[EvenSteven]

With the Bulldogs moving to Brantford next season it doesn't make sense that they stay in the East division given how close they are to Niagara, Guelph and Kitchener. I think if I was the league I would realign the divisions this way.

Eastern Conference

East
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
Mississauga

North
SSM
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
Owen Sound

Western Conference

South
Kitchener
Guelph
Brantford (Hamilton)
Niagara
Erie

West
Flint
Saginaw
Sarnia
Windsor
London

I know some rivalries with be broken up but they could add some games to those match ups to make up for the changes.

I’m against any realignment that moves London out of the Midwest. Period.