Why is Gretzky known as the best?

[McThome]

If we could have 5 Gretzky's play 5 on 5 against 5 Orr's, who would win??, answer honestly please.

So a 200 point Gretzky VS Orr? Are you kidding me? Orr never ever ever ever ever ever played against somebody that could and would utterly dominate like Wayne did. If you think it'd be some kind of romp you are clearly lacking on having seen Gretzky play. One Gretzky would out think 2 Orrs. It's just that simple I'm affraid.

 

[kruezer]

So a 200 point Gretzky VS Orr? Are you kidding me? Orr never ever ever ever ever ever played against somebody that could and would utterly dominate like Wayne did. If you think it'd be some kind of romp you are clearly lacking on having seen Gretzky play. One Gretzky would out think 2 Orrs. It's just that simple I'm affraid.

I don't know Thome, I agree that Wayne is better, slightly, but to say Wayne could outthink Orr that easily just isn't true, I mean, Orr had a superior hockey mind, superior to everyone except Wayne I'd say, Orr did not just get by on his physical gifts, because really, he wasn't that physically gifted, Other than speed, he really didn't have much on other guys except that mind.

 

[revolverjgw]

''I have to disagree, I still pick Wayne over Orr on the all time rankings, but I really do not think that Orr would be closer to the pack at all, physical gifts nothing, he still has a ridiculous hockey mind, it seems to me the arguement your using is very similar to that which the Lemieux fans are using to discredit Gretzky. Great players are great players, the era they played in has nothing to do with it, not to mention the amount Orr changed the game, he's really the only guy comparable to Gretzky in that regard IMO. I'll respectfully disagree.''

Acknowledged and appreciated and I see what you're saying. But I stand by what I said. I'm not discrediting him, otherwise I wouldn't have said ''he'd still be the best D-man in the league''. Just being, I believe, realistic. Today's D-men and skaters are better equipped, both physically and strategically, to deal with a guy of Orr's speed. His hockey sense notwithstanding, it's a fact that his speed and skating were way ahead of his time and contributed GREATLY to his dominance, like Coffey's did to his own. He was a generation or two ahead in terms of physical tools. Wouldn't be so nowadays. He'd benefit from today's advances as well, but the gap between him and the rest would still be signifigantly smaller.

But... there's the rub, there would still be a gap. He'd still take home the Norris with regularity because of his still elite speed and his superior brain. So I'm not discrediting him.

Same idea- Gretzky wouldn't get 200 points these days and wouldn't be as far ahead of the pack as HE was. I think he'd be 30 points better than Forsberg, but not 60-70 like he used to do. I don't think that's discrediting him, I still think he's the best player ever.

Now, that ''Gretzky > Orr'' opinion is a little more controversial, heh... but I stand by that, too. Already listed the reasons why. Boston would be just as good if they had Wayne, they'd win at LEAST their two Cups without a problem.

And yes I HAVE watched Orr play, '04 Hockey, and Gretzky's on-ice ideas and chances impress me more than Orr's. 'Nuff said. Just in the last week, I've watched the '87 and '76 Canada Cup finals (on TSN and my own personal collection), and Wayne was easily the most fun and dangerous player to watch in either series. He also looked way more lethal than Lemieux in that deciding '87 game (Mario's winning goal notwithstanding!), but that's neither here nor there. Take your one-sided fanboyism elsewhere.

 

[mcphee]

I would suggest that to really appreciate Orr, you'd have to see him on a run of the mill mid Deceber game in the late 60's or early 70's. It's not quite fair to compare him to the next generation in terms of speed. Each generation is bigger and faster than the one before. Keep in mind that some of the defenses and systems used to take the flow out of today's game were designed to stop Gretzky and the players influenced by his style. Teams defend passing lanes and the trailer more than ever before wherein Gretzky made his living off passing to players heading for open ice.That's why it's hard to project. If there was no Gretzky, would the plays that he made that were widely imitated not exist ? If you want to judge by numbers and longevity, fine Gretzky has no equal. I doubt that anyone can re-produce what he did. Judging the greatest ever on his best night becomes like art, I saw Orr as a rookie and he did things in a way that changed the game forever, as did #99. Without Orr, a Jr. coach would have made Coffey a center probably. Call whoever you want the greatest, I'm just glad I got to see 'em both.

 

[pei fan]

Can't argue with that.

It seems like you are stuck on defending Maradonna.By the way I am a huge
Maradonna fan.At his peak he was the best,but I also recognize he squandered
some of his career because of personal issues.You have to look at the whole of
the career,plus the intangibles.Gretzky is not known as the Great One just for
his hockey playing abilities but also for many more reasons.

 

[dawgbone]

How many of your current day "faster than the back in the day" offensive Dmen have come close to a scoring title?????

HOW MANY?????????????????

Thats how great Orr was, watch the videos, he's all by himself leaving HIS teammates AND the defending team in his wake when he took off, AFTER defending first in the defensive zone.. And that was on surgery ravaged knees.

HE'D BE BETTER TODAY BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE PLAYERS WHO COULD KEEP UP WITH HIM!

Orr had the heart of a lion, NEVER complained about the rough stuff, unlike Gretz, Orr took care of payback himself.....detested losing and played hurt ALL THE TIME. I guess Gordie Howe's opinion about the best ever doesn't matter too, huh?

You guys fawning over 99 are treating Canada's probably greatest treasure like an afterthought.

Do some research.

Then take your cranial cavity out of your anal one. Orr was a great player... but his absolute best season wasn't even close to Gretzky's.

Gretzky playerd on the power play, penalty kill, would double and triple shift... everything. The NHL had to institute rules that were there to hurt Gretzky.

They took away 4 on 4 because the Oilers (and Gretzky) would murder teams on it... Orr had the benefit of 4 on 4 hockey his whole career.

If Orr had 15 + seasons, alright, it might be close... but he had 10 seasons, 7 of which were great seasons... how do you compare that with a guy who played 20 seasons, and was a top player for 15 of them?

 

[PecaFan]

Call whoever you want the greatest, I'm just glad I got to see 'em both.

Yup, me too. Folks are talking immovable object / irresistible force here. You can't project a winner.

Wayne is #1 and Orr #2 for one simple reason: Wayne was able to maximise his potential, Orr was not. As with Mario, Orr might have or could have had the greatest career. But he didn't. Their peaks are right up there with Wayne, certainly.

 

[JCD]

I was too young to see Orr in his prime, only seen the highlights.

On the ice, I think it is impossible to decide between Orr and Gretzky. Gretzky has longivity, but if you are talking single-season, Orr is tough to top.

Why I think Gretzky is the greatest? Off the ice. Orr was a tremendous player, but what did he do outside the hockey world? The average joe off the street wouldn't recognize him from Adam or even know what sport he played.

Gretzky was the NHL's marquee star. EVERYONE knows who Gretzky is. They might think hockey has 4 quarters and off-sides results in a 5-yard penalty, but they know who Gretzky was. IMO, Gretzky's sweeping popularity caused the rekindled interest in hockey, and indirectly led to it's expansion.

(note: this primarily applies to USA and the world outside Canada. Not everyone is as advanced in sports appreciation as Canada )

 

[AG9NK35DT8*]

I would say he is the best ,MAYBE just maybe because he has about 1,000 more points than the second and third all time scores in NHL history.And has basically more asists than anyone has points , yeah he has great teammates, but how about if u look at it this way.... maybe gretz made his team mates great, maybe without gretz they would never be were they are.

gretz is simply amazing.thats all to say

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

How many of your current day "faster than the back in the day" offensive Dmen have come close to a scoring title?????

HOW MANY?????????????????

Thats how great Orr was, watch the videos, he's all by himself leaving HIS teammates AND the defending team in his wake when he took off, AFTER defending first in the defensive zone.. And that was on surgery ravaged knees.

HE'D BE BETTER TODAY BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE PLAYERS WHO COULD KEEP UP WITH HIM!

Orr had the heart of a lion, NEVER complained about the rough stuff, unlike Gretz, Orr took care of payback himself.....detested losing and played hurt ALL THE TIME. I guess Gordie Howe's opinion about the best ever doesn't matter too, huh?

You guys fawning over 99 are treating Canada's probably greatest treasure like an afterthought.

Do some research.

I've watched Orr and he's outstanding. I just don't think that even with his speed he would bust the trap, rush after rush.

Nobody is saying Orr wasn't or wouldn't be a great player. The fact is Orr's game relied on physical dominance of his opponent. Since Orr's day, players have made incredible strides in the physical skills department. On the other hand, Wayne would still be the smartest player out there and that was his game.

Are you going to sit there and question Gretzky's heart, because that's just foolish? The man played hurt for 10 years without stopping. Just like Bobby. He didn't take care of anything but putting up numbers because that's what he was there to do. Revenge isn't hockey and you can certainly play hockey without exacting it.

I happen to tihnk Gretzky is Canada's greatest treasure. Say what you want about his lack of physical play, but it certainly didn't hurt his performance. He had heart though, just as much as anybody else.

 

[jcorb58]

Aside from 1987, they won all of their final series in 5 games or less. They routinely dominated Eastern Conference teams (60 games above .500 from 1982-83 to 1987-88).

The Flames were built solely to beat Edmonton... it's a lot tougher to beat a team that is built for the sole purpose of beating you, than it is to beat teams you are merely competing against.

Badger Bob finally climbed " Mt Oiler ", What a great coach, He lived to beat Edm. Getting though a Calgary series for a bunch of " Wimp kneed wimps" as local reporter Terry Jones called them after the miricle on Mancaster was no easy task. Calgary could of won more cups if they didnt have to face the Oilers every year. Gretzky wasnt great because of Edmonton , Edmonton was great because the GREATEST player made them believe in themselves. There is no denying Orr was 1A but Gretz was still pretty damn good at 37 in the mighty Eastern Conferance. The Oilers could of and would of won thier cups no matter what conferance they were in.

 

[Diaboli]

It seems like you are stuck on defending Maradonna.By the way I am a huge
Maradonna fan.At his peak he was the best,but I also recognize he squandered
some of his career because of personal issues.You have to look at the whole of
the career,plus the intangibles.Gretzky is not known as the Great One just for
his hockey playing abilities but also for many more reasons.

If you want to take whole career into account, that's fine by me. Pele played almost his whole career in Brasil! Never in Europe. Maradona played in Europe in his prime and dominated. If you look at it this way, Maradona is far better.

I don't get this arguement.

It seems like you are stuck on defending Maradonna.

Why do people use this kind of arguements? Are you backing out? No. But you say that I'm not, and seem to think, that it's wrong. Why shouldn't it be you changing your opinion? I'm not saying you should, but it's hard for me to understand the logic behind this kind of arguement.

BTW, I don't agree with your statement about Gretzky. In my books he's the greatest, 'cause he is the best of all time IMO.

 

[mcphee]

Yup, me too. Folks are talking immovable object / irresistible force here. You can't project a winner.

Wayne is #1 and Orr #2 for one simple reason: Wayne was able to maximise his potential, Orr was not. As with Mario, Orr might have or could have had the greatest career. But he didn't. Their peaks are right up there with Wayne, certainly.

Exactly. Is the greatest decided by the greatest career or who was the better player when at his best ?

 

[04' hockey]

Nobody is saying Orr wasn't or wouldn't be a great player. The fact is Orr's game relied on physical dominance of his opponent. Since Orr's day, players have made incredible strides in the physical skills department.
:lol :lol :lol

Just how long do you think it's been?????

Orr's career was "effectively" cut short at the age of 28(his last full season), twenty eight! The single greatest loss of the league EVER. Look at what he accomplished by that young age....would the Bruins have won the cup without him? Would the Oilers win the cup without Gretz?, oh yeah, they did.

 

[kruezer]

Exactly. Is the greatest decided by the greatest career or who was the better player when at his best ?

I agree, just don't go underrating Orr

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Nobody is saying Orr wasn't or wouldn't be a great player. The fact is Orr's game relied on physical dominance of his opponent. Since Orr's day, players have made incredible strides in the physical skills department.
:lol :lol :lol

Just how long do you think it's been?????

Orr's career was "effectively" cut short at the age of 28(his last full season), twenty eight! The single greatest loss of the league EVER. Look at what he accomplished by that young age....would the Bruins have won the cup without him? Would the Oilers win the cup without Gretz?, oh yeah, they did.

Replace Orr with Gretzky and do the Bruins still win the cup, probably...

Trying to knock Wayne Gretzky is just silly. Are you going to argue that the players today aren't and bigger, faster or stronger than they were in Bobby's days? Probably not. So what makes you think that Orr could go end to end time after time now, when things are so different? End to end rushes are to say the least, rare now. I'm not saying Orr would be Wade Belak here, I just don't think he would have his way with opponents as easily as he did.

 

[04' hockey]

Replace Orr with Gretzky and do the Bruins still win the cup, probably...

Trying to knock Wayne Gretzky is just silly. Are you going to argue that the players today aren't and bigger, faster or stronger than they were in Bobby's days? Probably not. So what makes you think that Orr could go end to end time after time now, when things are so different? End to end rushes are to say the least, rare now. I'm not saying Orr would be Wade Belak here, I just don't think he would have his way with opponents as easily as he did.

Dr., no one is knocking Gretz, try to imagine A-N-Y Dman today winning the Art Ross Trophy!, how sensational that would be in todays NHL.

Thats how great Orr was!

The only thing different is the current year, you'll realize that as you get older.
End to end rushes rare?, yeah, I know, there's nobody close today that has anywhere near the total package that was Bobby Orr! Nobody could do what Orr could do, AT HIGH SPEED, since, well, Orr! This from an almost 30 yr. Flyers season tix holder.....
Orr, really was that GREAT!


Amazing the amount of posters here that think Orr wouldn't be as good today as in the 70's.

As sure a bet as there could be.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Dr., no one is knocking Gretz, try to imagine A-N-Y Dman today winning the Art Ross Trophy!, how sensational that would be in todays NHL.

Thats how great Orr was!

The only thing different is the current year, you'll realize that as you get older.
End to end rushes rare?, yeah, I know, there's nobody close today that has anywhere near the total package that was Bobby Orr! Nobody could do what Orr could do, AT HIGH SPEED, since, well, Orr! This from an almost 30 yr. Flyers season tix holder.....
Orr, really was that GREAT!


Amazing the amount of posters here that think Orr wouldn't be as good today as in the 70's.

As sure a bet as there could be.

See, that's the thing. I don't think orr would necessarily win the Art Ross now. The league is just not made for defenseman to do that. Orr was obviously superb and I tihnk if he played forward he would win the Ross easily, but today's NHL game is not condusive to defenseman racking up the points. There just isn't any room out there anymore.

 

[dawgbone]

Dr., no one is knocking Gretz, try to imagine A-N-Y Dman today winning the Art Ross Trophy!, how sensational that would be in todays NHL.

Thats how great Orr was!

Try to Imagine A-N-Y forward today winning the Art Ross by 100 points!

The only thing different is the current year, you'll realize that as you get older.
End to end rushes rare?, yeah, I know, there's nobody close today that has anywhere near the total package that was Bobby Orr! Nobody could do what Orr could do, AT HIGH SPEED, since, well, Orr! This from an almost 30 yr. Flyers season tix holder.....
Orr, really was that GREAT!

End to end rushes don't necessarily need the total package. It was common in the 70's, 80's and early 90's to see a guy pick up the puck from behind his net, and go around 3 or 4 guys and score. That just doesn't happen nowadays, not because the players aren't as skilled... it's the exact opposite, the players are more skilled, especially in the defensive aspects of the game. Teams line up to disrupt the oppositions breakout, something that was unheard of 20 years ago.

Amazing the amount of posters here that think Orr wouldn't be as good today as in the 70's.

As sure a bet as there could be.

He certainly wouldn't have lead the league in scoring... Orr relied on physical gifts, and that is one thing that NHL players now are good at disrupting. Gretzky didn't rely on physical gifts, he relied on intelligence. Gretzky certainly wouldn't have put up 215 points in todays NHL, but he certainly would have lead it in scoring... and I don't see Orr having the same offensive impact he did in the 70's. He might be the best 2 way defenseman in the league, but in today's game of shut-down NHL hockey, Orr's best assets would be neutralized, just like many of Today's stars have been.

 

[04' hockey]

Try to Imagine A-N-Y forward today winning the Art Ross by 100 points!



End to end rushes don't necessarily need the total package. It was common in the 70's, 80's and early 90's to see a guy pick up the puck from behind his net, and go around 3 or 4 guys and score. That just doesn't happen nowadays, not because the players aren't as skilled... it's the exact opposite, the players are more skilled, especially in the defensive aspects of the game. Teams line up to disrupt the oppositions breakout, something that was unheard of 20 years ago.



He certainly wouldn't have lead the league in scoring... Orr relied on physical gifts, and that is one thing that NHL players now are good at disrupting. Gretzky didn't rely on physical gifts, he relied on intelligence. Gretzky certainly wouldn't have put up 215 points in todays NHL, but he certainly would have lead it in scoring... and I don't see Orr having the same offensive impact he did in the 70's. He might be the best 2 way defenseman in the league, but in today's game of shut-down NHL hockey, Orr's best assets would be neutralized, just like many of Today's stars have been.

Dr. Moses, Orr played HALF of ALL his games in the smallest rink in the league at the time, so much for space having an impact on Orrs' productivity.

Dawg, defensive hockey was the name of the game when Orr played. How many Dmen even crossed the red line then, joining a rush? Nothing like today. Orrs' best assets "neutralized"??
No question, Orr would run amok if he played today, all these big cookie cutter rinks. On two good knees he'd be setting records that would be untouchable. He would have finally played with other players who could keep up with him, ha ha. You young guys really missed the real thing, Take the best attributes from the five best Dmen playing today, combine them - you MAY get close to "an Orr". funny how the great ones come along when they do, unannounced, then are gone without warning.....shame.
Fella's, he really was that great.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Dr. Moses, Orr played HALF of ALL his games in the smallest rink in the league at the time, so much for space having an impact on Orrs' productivity.

Dawg, defensive hockey was the name of the game when Orr played. How many Dmen even crossed the red line then, joining a rush? Nothing like today. Orrs' best assets "neutralized"??
No question, Orr would run amok if he played today, all these big cookie cutter rinks. On two good knees he'd be setting records that would be untouchable. He would have finally played with other players who could keep up with him, ha ha. You young guys really missed the real thing, Take the best attributes from the five best Dmen playing today, combine them - you MAY get close to "an Orr". funny how the great ones come along when they do, unannounced, then are gone without warning.....shame.
Fella's, he really was that great.

I didn't miss anything. I'm old enough to have seen the best player ever, number 99 play in his heydey. Sure I would have liked to see Orr but I just can't see him going end to end against trapping teams. It would be rare to say the least. He would still be the best D-Man in the league by a long ways, but he wouldn't be winning Art Ross's I don't think.

 

[mazmin]

First off I wanna say hi to everyone here I'm new to the boards so maybe this question has come up before or maybe not so bare with me. Anyways before everyone starts screaming at me and stuff I wanna say that Gretzky was a real dominant player in his era BUT that doesnt mean he was the BEST of all time. Look here's a list of who in my opinion are equally great as Wayne and dominated in their era:

1- Rocket Richard: First player to score 50 goals in 50 games. Played during a tough time where people knew how to check. Led the habs to 5 straight Stanley Cup wins which is still a record today.

2- Gordie Howe: Somoene who has dominated the game for the longest amount of time. Played till he was 52 and still at a high level.

3- Jean Beliveau: Another great player in his own right, he was one of the finest stick handlers and passers of all time during his era. 10 Stanley Cup championships among other trophies.

4- Bobby Orr: Awesome natural skater, passer, play maker, shooter, deker, defensive and offensive defenseman. Was best defenseman for 8 years in his short career due to injuries. Lead the Bruins to their first cup in years in 1970 and then again in 1972.

5- Guy Lafleur: Known as the most exciting player there ever was, the Flower played during the 70-s and won the Hart trophie twice, 3 times Art Ross, Conn Smythe trophie, scored 50 or more goals for 6 straight seasons, tallied more then 120 points for 6 straight seasons as well. Won 5 stanley cups with 4 of them consecutively. However a car accident in 1980 slowed him down a ot.

6- Mario Lemieux: Mario could play like no one else. He was drafted by Pittsburgh who was the last team in the league then in 1984 and just 6 years later won the stanley cup with that same team and then repeated as champs the year later. He won two straight conn smythe trophies and 2 straight Art Ross trophies. Battle through injuries and Cancer speaking of which, the same day of his last radiation treatment, Mario came back to Pittsburgh's lineup to play against Philadelphia and scored a goal and won the scoring title that year!

Also lets not forget about Marcel Dionne, Bobby Hull, Mike Bossy and Bret Hull.

Plus Gretzky played with some great teammates such as Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Coffee, etc. And unlike the first 5 people I mentioned, he played in a high scoring era. So what are your thoughts about this?

Good post. It can be argues that he is hands down the best hockey player ever on the basis of his numerous NHL records, but you're right, he might not be the best of all time. But how do we measure best?

There are six positions on the ice. Gretzky would not have been the best d-man or goalie no matter how hard he tried...was he the best center? Forward? Ever? It appears so, but then there is a name like Joe Malone. He once had 44 goals in 20 games for the Canadians though it was before they even counted assists. Was he better than Gretzky? No one knows, but we do know a lot MORE, in detail, about Wayne's accomplishments. And in comparing his accomplishments with other players of the last century he sure seems like the best.

 

[dawgbone]

Dr. Moses, Orr played HALF of ALL his games in the smallest rink in the league at the time, so much for space having an impact on Orrs' productivity.

Dawg, defensive hockey was the name of the game when Orr played. How many Dmen even crossed the red line then, joining a rush? Nothing like today. Orrs' best assets "neutralized"??
No question, Orr would run amok if he played today, all these big cookie cutter rinks. On two good knees he'd be setting records that would be untouchable. He would have finally played with other players who could keep up with him, ha ha. You young guys really missed the real thing, Take the best attributes from the five best Dmen playing today, combine them - you MAY get close to "an Orr". funny how the great ones come along when they do, unannounced, then are gone without warning.....shame.
Fella's, he really was that great.

:lol

The goaltenders now are better than they have ever been.

The defensive systems are more complex than they have ever been.

The players are bigger, stronger and faster than they have ever been.

If you are so shortsighted to beleive that Orr would be setting untouchable records today because the ice surfaces are a little bigger and he'd have players that could keep up with him, hey that's up to you... but you are flat out wrong.

Sure, he would have had players on his own team that were fast enough to keep up with him, but so would the opposition.

Sorry man, but Ken Dryden circa 1974 with his equipment and all that wouldn't even make an OHL team today.

That's what you seem to forget... while the goaltenders of that time were good for their era, the goalies today are bigger, quicker, stronger and have more equipment.

Orr took great advantage of that... and to think he'd have better numbers now is completely ridiculous.

 

[Boilers*]

Orr was no doubt the best D-man hockey has ever seen. If you grew up watching the guy you'd no doubt agree. You wouldn't even have to look at his records to see how special of a talent he was. Watching that guy was seeing poetry in motion, unusually fast,fluid skater, pure natural.

Wayne was a different type of player altogether. He saw systems unfold before anyone else,he thought the game ,and he worked hard at everything he accomplished.He wanted to score on the face-off, well he worked hard practicing. Wayne wasn't a natural, but he worked so hard at it that you really can't tell. He had played defence as a young man,learning the defensive styles,and thus he knew the system well(Heh,remember the interveiw where the commentator asks him "so how many goals do you have?" to which Wayne responds "uh,um 176" Commentator ".........176 goals as a defenceman!?!"

 

[04' hockey]

Sorry man, but Ken Dryden circa 1974 with his equipment and all that wouldn't even make an OHL team today.