Why is center > winger?

93LEAFS

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Nov 7, 2009
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Elite scoring wingers are close to the same value.Easily can be franchise cornerstones and often are...
The players you mentioned plus Iginla who was also the best player in the league for a stretch.. or Naslund for the Canucks during the same era.. Brett Hull, Mike Bossy, Cam Neely, Jagr..
Taylor Hall is in line for Hart this year... winger. Kucherov as well.
Centres happen to effect the game is other areas... face offs, defensively, being playmakers setting up those valuable wingers... so the elite Centers will carry more valuable for that reason.
Pretty much all those guys also had elite centers when they were at their best. Hull was never the same without Oates (Neely actually had his best year statistically with Oates), Bossy had Trottier his entire career and Jagr had Mario for a decent period of time.

Iginla was close to the best player, but if you were trying to build a title contender at that time, would anyone really take him over Sakic?
 

Kshahdoo

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And how many Cups have those wingers lead their teams to? Kane's the only guy on that list that you could argue was the best player during his team's Cups, and even then Toews and Keith were equally as big.

Now look at other Cup winners and who their best forwards were:
Pittsburgh - Crosby/Malkin
Los Angeles - Kopitar
Boston - Bergeron
Detroit - Zetterberg/Datsyuk
Colorado - Forsberg/Sakic
Detroit - Yzerman/Fedorov

It's not a "Canadian thing". It's based on the fact that centers have a bigger influence on team success because they simply cover more ice and have bigger 200 foot responsibilities.

Kessel was the best Pens' player in that 2nd Cup though.
 

kelsier

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Aug 17, 2013
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I think the entire center >> winger invention is mostly just a result of a great generation of centers entering the game. Just from the recent years we have guys like McDavid, Eichel, Barkov, Mackinnon and Matthews, who all are expected to lead their teams to great days of glory. Does position make them special? No, it's who they are and what they can do on the ice. It doesn't mean wingers cannot take over games just as well and be leading players in their respective teams. Just look at a team like Nashville who's best center is Johansson. They are doing more than just fine without being strong in the middle.

I would take a game-breaking winger over franchise center if I thought he was the better player. This is just a trend being fed over the audience over the discussion boards and over internet. Once something is repeated long enough, people slowly begin to buy it. With that said, elite/franchise centers are important and have a big role to play in a solid foundation. That goes with a question.
 

Legion34

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I mean this is a well known idea. Centers in general are more important. They control the game more, have more responsibilities in the D Zone and everything tends to go through them. You can see it pretty clearly. Many star players can break in on the wing. How many can break in as legit full time centers? McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, Im not even sure if tavares did?

Young players get sheltered on the wing and move over when ready. When players can't handle C anymore they get moved to the wing. Its just the way it is. There are exceptions to every rule for sure, Kane dominates the play as a W, St.Louis did as well. As a leaf fan, Marner does a great job from the wing, but Cs of anywhere near the same tier are more important.
 

Kshahdoo

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And how has that worked out for finland, usa and russia?
Canada might just be on to something

Soviet teams beat NHLers many times, and as far as I remember not a single Canadian team could stop Makarov and Krutov. And a surplus of wingers over centers wasn't the main problem for Russian teams like at all.
 

Legion34

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I think the entire center >> winger invention is mostly just a result of a great generation of centers entering the game. Just from the recent years we have guys like McDavid, Eichel, Barkov, Mackinnon and Matthews, who all are expected to lead their teams to great days of glory. Does position make them special? No, it's who they are and what they can do on the ice. It doesn't mean wingers cannot take over games just as well and be leading players in their respective teams. Just look at a team like Nashville who's best center is Johansson. They are doing more than just fine without being strong in the middle.

I would take a game-breaking winger over franchise center if I thought he was the better player. This is just a trend being fed over the audience over the discussion boards and over internet. Once something is repeated long enough, people slowly begin to buy it. With that said, elite/franchise centers are important and have a big role to play in a solid foundation. That goes with a question.

Hockey has been around longer than you have been a fan of it..... The idea that C are more important is a new thing is ridiculous. Did you play hockey as a kid? C being the focal point of the team has been around since the 80s at least from my direct experience, I would guess way before
 

Legion34

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Soviet teams beat NHLers many times, and as far as I remember not a single Canadian team could stop Makarov and Krutov. And the main problem for Russia wasn't a surplus of wingers over centers like at all.

Fine, centers have been more important since 1972
 

Zuluss

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The game of hockey doesn’t work that way. Phil Kessel had a nearly identical stat line to Anze Kopitar this season, but I’ve yet to hear anyone argue that Kessel > Kopitar.

This is not math, so there is a counterexample to everything. E.g., the list of centers who outscored Ovechkin during some of the last 7 seasons, but still were not thought to be better than him, will probably make for a long post.

You don’t get to be a center by being a “master of none”. If you aren’t good offensively OR defensively, you get stuck in a bottom line wing position at best. Because bottom line wings have the least demanding set of responsibilities on the team.

There is always a way to redefine "master", one can even say that everyone in the league is a "master".
But let's define "master" as someone who is top20 in the league in _____
Basically, will you take a generic 30g+40a center over Laine, who also has 70 points this season? Your list is Schenn, Drai, Marner, Point, current version of Backstrom. Isn't Laine better than most/all of them, at least for the season?
 

Andrei79

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They cover more ice on both ends and have more options available to make plays without being limites by the boards on either side. That means the potential for having a large impact is higher.
 

tarheelhockey

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This is not math, so there is a counterexample to everything. E.g., the list of centers who outscored Ovechkin during some of the last 7 seasons, but still were not thought to be better than him, will probably make for a long post.

Well, nobody scored more goals than Ovechkin in 5 of those seasons. He's valued the way he is because he's been THE best winger in the game for an extended period of time.

Yet, it's worth considering that if you ask people whether they'd rather have THE best winger (Ovechkin) or THE best center (Crosby) during that time period, the results are heavily slanted toward Crosby. There's a general understanding that yes, Ovechkin will get you a ****-ton of goals, but beyond that specific role he is of limited use in winning hockey games. Whereas Crosby is going to do it all, in all 3 zones. Thus, the difference between a HOF winger and a HOF center.


There is always a way to redefine "master", one can even say that everyone in the league is a "master".
But let's define "master" as someone who is top20 in the league in _____
Basically, will you take a generic 30g+40a center over Laine, who also has 70 points this season? Your list is Schenn, Drai, Marner, Point, current version of Backstrom. Isn't Laine better than most/all of them, at least for the season?

Again, Laine had 44 goals and was arguably the best goal scorer in the world over the past 8 months. If my goal is to add one player to an already complete team, of course I'm going to take the guy who is singularly talented in shooting the puck. I can put him next to anyone and know that he's going to be there rocketing pucks into the net regardless.

But if I'm picking one guy to put on the ice with a puck, showcasing all the skills that make a good hockey player in a game of 1-on-1 where he has to do everything? I'd take 63-point Bergeron over 70-point Laine all day long. Hopefully you would too, I would think?
 

Rorschach

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This rule looks like an axiom in modern hockey. But I was rising on Soviet hockey, where it was mostly just the other way around: great wingers carried lines (Firsov, Kharlamov, Makarov), while centers had mostly supportive roles. And look at some modern wingers like Ovechkin, Kane, Panarin, Kovalchuk in his best NHL seasons.

Columbus fans say, Panarin is a special player, because he makes players around him better. I think, Kane was the most important Chicago player in their 3 Cup wins. Yeah, people should change their minds about the idea, that a winger can't be a franchise cornerstone.

Watch the 2014 series between LA and Chicago. LAs centers shut down Kane because the shut down his non-elite center. Half-way through the series, Quenville had to shift lines and get Kane a new center in Shaw to get Kane on the scoreboard.

Centers are key to possession, and this includes possession from winning faceoffs, from getting the puck back defensively and passing the puck to wingers. Wingers need possession to have scoring chances, even the elite ones. And wingers need positioning to get into scoring lanes. If the winger's center is not as good as the opposing center, even if the winger helps the center double-team defensively to help with position, the winger will likely be out of position to score.
 

kelsier

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Hockey has been around longer than you have been a fan of it..... The idea that C are more important is a new thing is ridiculous. Did you play hockey as a kid? C being the focal point of the team has been around since the 80s at least from my direct experience, I would guess way before

Who wouldn't have played hockey as a kid when there are rinks at every corner here? Take a guess. Sure I agree that there's difference in the value of the position, but the difference isn't as vast as it's made out to be and here especially often blown out of proportions. There are great players of all positions who have played a key role while leading their teams to the Cup in the past. The idea of winger being somehow heavily inferior is ridiculous. Should we look at Seguin and Hall for example. Both are All-Star players while Hall was drafted first regardless of his position and I think even today he is considered the more valuable asset. Of course there are examples both ways but in the end you are either good at hockey or you aren't. Perhaps we should ask Chiarelli who'd he rather take back and figure this out for good. :D
 
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Thenameless

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Yeah, I don't put too much stock into this recent adage. Give me the better player, regardless of position. Admittedly, the one that's much harder to value is a good goalie. It's harder for me to gauge the value of say a Lundqvist vs. a Hedman.
 

Uncle Scrooge

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Hockey is a game where the small things matter a lot. Being a centerman you're constantly in the middle of those small details and small plays, because centers have so much responsibility all over the ice. I feel like the longer i've watched the game the more i learned to appreciate centers who excel in the position, especially in the playoffs where everything is magnified.

Elite wingers are special players for a reason and they do close the gap somewhat because of how much they're able to impact the game from the wing, but at the end of the day as history shows you need to be good down the middle if you want to win. Generally it's the center who is the biggest piece on a line dictating how good the chemistry is. Not to mention match-up game. It's not often you hear the coach matching his line against the opponents best line because of who he has on the wing.
 

Rorschach

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How many Stanley Cup champions in the last few decades were won by teams led by a winger? The only time top wingers win Cups are when they are on a team with top centers and top defensemen.

When Kane won his Hart, where how did Chicago do in the playoffs?

The best winger of our generation is Ovechkin, how many Final appearances does he have?

How is Gaudreau's team's playoff record?
 

Legion34

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Who wouldn't have played hockey as a kid when there are rinks at every corner here? Take a guess. Sure I agree that there's difference in the value of the position, but the difference isn't as vast as it's made out to be and here especially often blown out of proportions. There are great players of all positions who have played a key role while leading their teams to the Cup in the past. The idea of winger being somehow heavily inferior is ridiculous. Should we look at Seguin and Hall for example. Both are All-Star players while Hall was drafted first regardless of his position and I think even today he is considered the more valuable asset. Of course there are examples both ways but in the end you are either good at hockey or you aren't. Perhaps we should ask Chiarelli who'd he rather take back and figure this out for good. :D

Well in canada it has been that way since I was a kid. Maybe other countries have different priorities. I guess we will let the results speak for themselves....

But sure I can agree that it may be “blown out of proportion” but then that comes down to how subjectively big one thinks the difference is.

When the leafs had Kessel, no one thought that bozak was better. Regardless c are more valuable. There are twice as many wingers as c. And when you look at all the best players it sure isn’t 2:1 wingers. It’s probably the other way. Of course there are players like prime ovy who was a one man wrecking crew. He routinely went through the other team and scored. Didn’t matter who his line mates were. He was the best player in the game as a winger some seasons then. Even if he scores 60 next year he won’t be. He is a trigger man now.

Major points.

1.) pretty much every player agrees c is more important.
2.)Tons of players who play c can be good wingers, very few can make the transition the other way. Wheeler is the first I have seen in forever.
3.) when there are super teams, the inferior player slides to the wing ....... Crosby doesn’t go to the wing ever. Matthews went to mcdavid s wing
4.) when players are new or old they play wing. Marleau shifted to the wing and is still playing. HE wouldn’t make it as a long term c now.
5.) many coaches trust a player at wing but not C. No coaches don’t trust the C to be a winger.
 
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Legion34

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Yeah, I don't put too much stock into this recent adage. Give me the better player, regardless of position. Admittedly, the one that's much harder to value is a good goalie. It's harder for me to gauge the value of say a Lundqvist vs. a Hedman.

The thing is. It isn’t recent????? It’s been like this for like 30-40 years that I can remembrr
 

Zuluss

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Yet, it's worth considering that if you ask people whether they'd rather have THE best winger (Ovechkin) or THE best center (Crosby) during that time period, the results are heavily slanted toward Crosby.

OK, let's not go there :)

Again, Laine had 44 goals and was arguably the best goal scorer in the world over the past 8 months. If my goal is to add one player to an already complete team, of course I'm going to take the guy who is singularly talented in shooting the puck. I can put him next to anyone and know that he's going to be there rocketing pucks into the net regardless.

OK, this is what I am talking about. In real life, you want a guy who is real good at one thing over the pack of "well-rounded" players with similar point production.
And that's because, like you said, you have other people on the team/line to do what Laine does not do, but you can't put together two well-rounded guys and get a Laine-level scoring threat, that would be too-many-men penalty :)

But if I'm picking one guy to put on the ice with a puck, showcasing all the skills that make a good hockey player in a game of 1-on-1 where he has to do everything?

And then in the imaginary world where hockey is played 1-on-1 with the purpose of showcasing skills well-rounded players take the cake. Fine.

I'd take 63-point Bergeron over 70-point Laine all day long. Hopefully you would too, I would think?

That's a bad example, Bergeron is the best defensive forward with 4 Selkes and 2 runner-ups in the past six years.
The argument you and others are offering in favor of centers being better than wingers all else equal is that they can do many things well enough, though most probably they won't be top20 in any of them. Well, being really good in just one thing trumps all that, as the Laine example shows.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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In the old days many of the top forwards, if not the top, were wings. The Rocket, bobby Hull, Howe...they were the best players of their era.

Part of me wants to say that the elimination of the two line offside had something to do with it...I don't know why, though.

I don't think those guys are good examples. The concept of W being the best player in the world isn't exactly new. You had Lafleur in the late 70s, Jagr in the late 90s, and Ovechkin arguably in the late 2000s. However, the concept of W being far and away the best player on a SC team is uncommon. When the guys you mentioned won their Cups, they all had the best D in the world (Howe with Kelly, Richard with Bouchard and later Harvey, and Hull with Pilote), the best G (Howe with Sawchuk, Richard with Durnan then Plante later, Hull with Hall) and all had a top-3 C in the world too (Howe with Abel, Richard with Lach later Beliveau, and Hull with Mikita). I'm pretty sure there are more SC winning teams with an elite D or C and average wings, than elite wings and average C or D.
 

kelsier

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Well in canada it has been that way since I was a kid. Maybe other countries have different priorities. I guess we will let the results speak for themselves....

But sure I can agree that it may be “blown out of proportion” but then that comes down to how subjectively big one thinks the difference is.

When the leafs had Kessel, no one thought that bozak was better. Regardless c are more valuable. There are twice as many wingers as c. And when you look at all the best players it sure isn’t 2:1 wingers. It’s probably the other way. Of course there are players like prime ovy who was a one man wrecking crew. He routinely went through the other team and scored. Didn’t matter who his line mates were. He was the best player in the game as a winger some seasons then. Even if he scores 60 next year he won’t be. He is a trigger man now.

Major points.

1.) pretty much every player agrees c is more important.
2.)Tons of players who play c can be good wingers, very few can make the transition the other way. Wheeler is the first I have seen in forever.
3.) when there are super teams, the inferior player slides to the wing ....... Crosby doesn’t go to the wing ever. Matthews went to mcdavid s wing
4.) when players are new or old they play wing. Marleau shifted to the wing and is still playing. HE wouldn’t make it as a long term c now.
5.) many coaches trust a player at wing but not C. No coaches don’t trust the C to be a winger.

I think Kessel doesn't really fit the criteria of a true franchise winger. Sure he's had his moments and been crazy in the playoffs since traded to Pens. Also as for there being twice more winger than centers, I don't really think the numbers make any difference in terms of what we're discussing. From the recent years I can't think of only so many wingers who would fit the criteria of being absolute top end rainmakers. If we take a peak into the short dynasty of the Hawks, Kane was absolutely instrumental bringing home those trophies and I would even argue he was more important than Toews (who nowadays is barely a shadow of his prime). He was the key piece who changed the course of the franchise and eventually became a face of it. Now when you think about it, I truly cannot think of all that many wingers who were made of the same (or even higher) caliper from the recent past or from this century. Jagr (okay he's an artefact but still refusing to retire), Ovechkin and maybe Kovalchuk - the list grows pretty thin which brings us back to the "amount of wingers vs centers", because the number doesn't matter, it's about what these guys can do on the ice and that is what truly determines their value (and naturally salary). Of course not all of them have necessarily even have Stanley cup rings. Hockey is a team sport and what kind of organizations some of these guys have had or have, it's almost entirely out of their hands. For instance, Ovy has never held the trophy, but has he had the kind of support cast needed to go deep? That can be argued.

In the end, whether you are a center or a winger, the merits go depending what you achieve. As for center taking face offs and having more responsibilities behind own blue line, that is true, but wingers don't get any get-out-of-jail-cards either and I can remember certain Jere Lehtinen who was the best defensive forward in the league for quite some time. I think we've seen a bit of transformation in terms of responsibilities over the course of time and today even the soon to be superstars are made to learn and adapt responsibilities at both zones and floating just doesn't get overlooked as much as it did in the past, goal scoring wingers included.

Anyhow, as I stated earlier I would rather have the BPA than make a pick based on position. Of course that's only my personal opinion. In the NHL the organizations are obliged to look even deeper, consider the needs and take everything else into account when they make draft picks for instance.

While reading what you said I started to wonder that perhaps it's the Canadian hockey culture that had something to do with the most talented kids being coached to become centers instead of wingers or do you think there's a connection? Thinking about Gretzky, Lemieux and even some "lesser" greats like Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, the list just gets pretty damn long and I'd guess there are more of these "legends" who played C instead of W or possibly just my mind and memory playing tricks and forgetting about all the names from the past. ;)
 

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