Why fight so hard for Phoenix, but let Atlanta move so easily?

[Finlandia WOAT]

And the problem with this one is that:

1. Sell Hawks and arena to local owner for a pile

2. Sell Thrashers to canadians

Likely nets ASG considerably more money than:

Sell Hawks, Thrashers, and arena to local owner


And since ASG can do #1 with the NHL having absolutely no say (such is entirely out of the scope of the NHL), #2 becomes an inevitably because of 1. no arena and 2. lack of interested local buyers for just the Thrashers.

Not if a good chunk of ASG's profit from this sale is given to the NHL for relocation fee.

My main point is that my scenario is all the NHL can do, if they are so inclined to keep the Atlanta market. That's it (and it is what they are doing right now, though any pragmatist or reasonable person would view it as Bettman screwing ASG for ASG screwing Atlanta).

 

[Kevbeau]

You know this is going to make a great case study in business schools everywhere.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Why was it that TNSE didn't try to buy the Coyotes?

All signs pointed that they were until CoG decided to pay up for another year.

 

[macavoy]

The League didn't push the Thrashers into ASG.

Everything was set to sell the Thrashers to David McDavid when Ted Turner, in one of his many mood swings, decided to sell it to ASG, a group which included Ted Turner's son and son-in-law.

sorry I don't know the history that far back but was McDavid going to buy the thrashers and NOT the arena at the time?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

sorry I don't know the history that far back but was McDavid going to buy the thrashers and NOT the arena at the time?

He was going to buy all three.

NBA Hawks, NHL Thrashers and Phillips Arena.

 

[Ashe]

All signs pointed that they were until CoG decided to pay up for another year.

TNSE wasn`t even given a chance to talk about purchase with the coyotes..which makes this all the more weirder.. They were given permission to talk to ATL.

 

[Mantha Poodoo]

TNSE wasn`t even given a chance to talk about purchase with the coyotes..which makes this all the more weirder.. They were given permission to talk to ATL.

Given that it's been (un)common knowledge that ASG has wanted to sell for years now, and hasn't been able to because of a legal bind, it's possible that when they got out of their bind the NHL went "oh ****, here we go..." and seeing the inevitably of ASG selling the arena/Hawks separately and selling (or not) the Thrashers separately, the NHL quietly went to TNSE and said "Alright guys, if you stay out of the Yotes mess, let Hulsizer try to do his thing and keep the Yotes there, we've got a likely inevitable relocation opportunity in Atlanta you can get for a decent price." They shake hands, agree to keep mum on it and then recently start working on the fine details.

 

[LeftCoast]

From a big picture perspective, Atlanta is strategically more important than Phoenix.

If Atlanta relocates (as it seems is the case), the NHL takes a hit in the South and South Florida. The NHL went into the South with a cluster of teams to help raise awareness and exposure to the NHL in the region. To some extent, it is working. USA Hockey reports that youth hockey registrations are growing the fastest in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and Tennessee (from fairly modest numbers, but a 100% growth in the last 10 years). The latest NBC/Versus TV rights package is a testament to this growth (as well at that in the South West). Unfortunately, with weak ownership (and economic malaise) Atlanta has failed to capture that growth in terms of attendance, TV audience, sponsorship and advertising. Also, while Tampa, Florida and Carolina, have better ownership (finally in the case of TB), their attendance and revenues are among the lowest in the league and none of them are even spending to the salary cap median point. Failure in Atlanta COULD have a ripple effect. I'm also not convinced that Atlanta is a market failure as much as it is an ownership failure, but I doubt that distinction will resonate with sports fans in the region. The message is clear, the NHL is a fringe sport in Georgia.

Phoenix ownership is even worse - the league is the 4th owner of the team in the last 10 years (all of whom have lost money) and they are hoping for a 5th owner to play the white knight. The team has never had a break even season. So what it the difference? The NHL has been in the SW corner of the map for much longer and hockey is much more established, particularly in California and Denver. LA and San Jose are selling out their arenas, and Colorado, Anaheim and Dallas have in recent years. California is now sending NHL players to the draft and is a roller hockey hotbed. Denver has a fairly mature NCAA hockey program and Dallas's problems are the personal bankruptcy of the owner. LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Colorado and Dallas were all there before Phoenix and if the Coyotes were to leave, I don't think it would have much if any effect on any of these teams or on the perception of the NHL in the region (outside of Phoenix).

I think the real reason the league is working so hard to keep the Coyotes in Glendale is because someone local - the City of Glendale, is working really hard to keep the team in place. In Atlanta, while the fans may want the team, the owners sure as hell don't. In Glendale, the owners of the arena, believe the Coyotes are vital to the success of the arena. In Atlanta, the owners of the arena want to jettison the Thrasher for more Lady Gaga dates. That has to piss off the Commissioner.

 

[KevFu]

it boils down to:

The arena owner wants to keep the Coyotes.
The arena owner doesn't want to keep the Thrashers.

 

[Street Hawk]

I think the real reason the league is working so hard to keep the Coyotes in Glendale is because someone local - the City of Glendale, is working really hard to keep the team in place. In Atlanta, while the fans may want the team, the owners sure as hell don't. In Glendale, the owners of the arena, believe the Coyotes are vital to the success of the arena. In Atlanta, the owners of the arena want to jettison the Thrasher for more Lady Gaga dates. That has to piss off the Commissioner.

Owners must believe it's better to lose the Thrashers and their dates and replace them with a different option. They probably won't fill all 41 home dates for the Thrashers, but maybe their financial analysis says that if they can recover 15 or so of those home dates, with other events, ie. figure skating, college BB, etc., it improves the bottom line.

Atlanta needs an owner who cares about hockey in order to be successful. If they get one because it's just part of the package for the arena and Hawks, the Thrashers will fail.

Right now, no one wants to own the Thrashers in ATL. Money losing proposition for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jumptheshark]

- The owner of the arena wants them out

- The owner of the arena owns the team

- The owner of the team has had the team up for sale for years.

It's not like this is happening over night. I recall some saying as long as a year ago feeling that Atlanta was in more trouble than Phoenix. ASG wanted to sell, no one would buy.

it did not happen over night--but it sure got sped up quickly all of a sudden

there is some back room politics we do not know about

 

[macavoy]

it boils down to:

The arena owner wants to keep the Coyotes.
The arena owner doesn't want to keep the Thrashers.

I'm sorry but your post is deleted because logic is not allowed and this is the internet where we must breed conspiracy theories.

 

[macavoy]

Owners must believe it's better to lose the Thrashers and their dates and replace them with a different option. They probably won't fill all 41 home dates for the Thrashers, but maybe their financial analysis says that if they can recover 15 or so of those home dates, with other events, ie. figure skating, college BB, etc., it improves the bottom line.

Right now, no one wants to own the Thrashers in ATL. Money losing proposition for the foreseeable future.

Exactly, people are vastly underestimating concession sales.

Every NHL game I have ever went to, I spent close to twice as much on concessions as I did on tickets.

If you have 41 dates where you only get 35% capacity, aka 7000 people only spending $30 on concessions, vs 20 dates where you get 18000 people spending $75 on concessions, thats millions of dollars a year.

Add $30m in losses a year on top of that for the thrashers and there is a reason why the next owner of the Hawks / Phillips arena doesn't want the thrashers.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Exactly, people are vastly underestimating concession sales.

Every NHL game I have ever went to, I spent close to twice as much on concessions as I did on tickets.

If you have 41 dates where you only get 35% capacity, aka 7000 people only spending $30 on concessions, vs 20 dates where you get 18000 people spending $75 on concessions, thats millions of dollars a year.

Add $30m in losses a year on top of that for the thrashers and there is a reason why the next owner of the Hawks / Phillips arena doesn't want the thrashers.

Why do you assume that the second option will spend 45$ more than those people from the first option?

 

[macavoy]

Why do you assume that the second option will spend 45$ more than those people from the first option?

because if I am so cheap that I'm only spending $30 on a thrashers ticket vs spending $87 on a lady gaga concert, I want to make sure I have way more fun at the event that I paid for an $87 ticket for, therefore, I'm willing to blow probably $200 more on my night out at an overpriced lady gaga concert vs the $30 ticket that I cheaped out on.

 

[macavoy]

Why do you assume that the second option will spend 45$ more than those people from the first option?

I also tend to believe the owners of the Phillips arena who don't want the 7000 thrasher fans 41 nights a year vs the 18k concert goers 15 nights a year.

I'm sorry if I tend to believe billionaires when it comes to investing in new teams.

 

[Street Hawk]

Exactly, people are vastly underestimating concession sales.

Every NHL game I have ever went to, I spent close to twice as much on concessions as I did on tickets.

If you have 41 dates where you only get 35% capacity, aka 7000 people only spending $30 on concessions, vs 20 dates where you get 18000 people spending $75 on concessions, thats millions of dollars a year.

Add $30m in losses a year on top of that for the thrashers and there is a reason why the next owner of the Hawks / Phillips arena doesn't want the thrashers.

It also costs the owners millions to pay for the players, management, insurance, equipment, travel, marketing, etc. That's a lot of expenses for 41 dates. At the cap min of $44 million this season, that's well over $1 million to play a game.

What is the cost to bring in college BB, figure skating, other college sports, and concerts? Considerably less.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

It also costs the owners millions to pay for the players, management, insurance, equipment, travel, marketing, etc. That's a lot of expenses for 41 dates. At the cap min of $44 million this season, that's well over $1 million to play a game.

What is the cost to bring in college BB, figure skating, other college sports, and concerts? Considerably less.

Ding, ding, ding, I think we have a winner ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Killion]

it did not happen over night--but it sure got sped up quickly all of a sudden-there are some back room politics we do not know about

You got that right. According to Brunts article in the Globe&Mail, the BOG's tentatively approved the relocation from Atlanta to Winnipeg 3mnths ago, yet we've had both Daly & Bettman claiming otherwise, that a local owner was being sought, when in fact all the NHL did to expedite a sale was to hold a secret vote approving relo. Over the past 12mnths, we've heard Bettman & Daly claiming the NHL wouldnt own the Coyotes past this season. They were gone if a deal wasnt done. BAM. Out of a clear blue sky and against every modicum of common sense, they extend the $25M loss guarantee's with the COG. $25M wont come close to covering the losses in Glendale if an owner isnt in place by the start of the season. We then had Bettman doing his best Braggadocio claiming how everyone was wrong about Phoenix moving, how the league doesnt run out on its fans, yadda yadda yadda. I think its pretty clear whats going on here. The timing coincides & aligns and you can form but one conclusion.

The cluster&%$# called ASG shutout the NHL at its own game. Howre' you going to sell the Thrashers locally without an arena to be playing in?. OK then. So, how about the league drops the gloves?. Why didnt they strip ASG of the franchise for acting in bad faith?. Force it on them through the courts in Georgia?. Worst case, Contract the franchise & hold a dispersal draft of the players in combination with the immediate awarding of an expansion franchise to Winnipeg. Leave ASG whistling Dixie up a Dark Alley instead of receiving the $80-$110M they'll get paid for screwing over the fans, the city & the NHL. But no, for the sake of expediency the NHL is running out on its fans. Its done nothing but apparently vote on a plan for relo. Wheres their fight now?. The NHL could have & should have used the courts to slap ASG silly & forced them to comply with the terms of their franchise agreement. Sure, ASG claims it did comply with it, but guess what?. No one believes them & the proof goes in the opposite direction. This is just wrong on every level. I think both Gary Bettman & Bill Daly should be resigning over this. I have supported & respected many of their efforts & achievements over the years, no personal grudges or irrational dislikes for either one. Their failing. They need to go.

 

[XX]

Screwing ASG out of 80-100 million for no real reason (As you'd have ended up with a team in Winnipeg anyways, under your scenario) is not good business Killion. I think that in order for this to be avoided in the future there needs to be some pretty clear contractual obligations on the part of owners who play in buildings that are not owned by the same group or a municipality. In the case of the Thrashers, ASG owned the whole pot but chose to throw out 1 piece. There has to be something in there about bad faith, I'm sure. The NHL is just choosing to look the other way as the 60 million covers the Phoenix problem.

 

[Killion]

I think that in order for this to be avoided in the future there needs to be some pretty clear contractual obligations on the part of owners who play in buildings that are not owned by the same group or a municipality. In the case of the Thrashers, ASG owned the whole pot but chose to throw out 1 piece. There has to be something in there about bad faith, I'm sure. The NHL is just choosing to look the other way as the 60 million covers the Phoenix problem.

Oh I know that XX. I like many simply find the NHL "looking the other way" in order to expedite matters disturbingly hypocritical. I advocate a scorched earth torching of ASG' akin to that dealt to Jerry Moyes', reining in rogue owners & sending a message. If as you suggest the $60M relo fee is indeed going to pay for Coyotes losses & the leagues unable to close a deal in Phoenix & fast, the whole plan goes to Hell in a Handbasket. Vancouver, as your aware, lost the Grizzlies when pieces of the whole had to be sold off when ownership was drowning in debt (new arena, low CDN dollar, lousy mgmnt & drafting etc). Legally, I havent got a clue as to whether or not it would be practicable to force a suit, injunctions or whatever against ASG, but tell ya what, Id be looking into it pretty closely if I was calling the shots.

 

[Huis Clos*]

From a big picture perspective, Atlanta is strategically more important than Phoenix.

If Atlanta relocates (as it seems is the case), the NHL takes a hit in the South and South Florida. The NHL went into the South with a cluster of teams to help raise awareness and exposure to the NHL in the region. To some extent, it is working. USA Hockey reports that youth hockey registrations are growing the fastest in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and Tennessee (from fairly modest numbers, but a 100% growth in the last 10 years). The latest NBC/Versus TV rights package is a testament to this growth (as well at that in the South West). Unfortunately, with weak ownership (and economic malaise) Atlanta has failed to capture that growth in terms of attendance, TV audience, sponsorship and advertising. Also, while Tampa, Florida and Carolina, have better ownership (finally in the case of TB), their attendance and revenues are among the lowest in the league and none of them are even spending to the salary cap median point. Failure in Atlanta COULD have a ripple effect. I'm also not convinced that Atlanta is a market failure as much as it is an ownership failure, but I doubt that distinction will resonate with sports fans in the region. The message is clear, the NHL is a fringe sport in Georgia.

Phoenix ownership is even worse - the league is the 4th owner of the team in the last 10 years (all of whom have lost money) and they are hoping for a 5th owner to play the white knight. The team has never had a break even season. So what it the difference? The NHL has been in the SW corner of the map for much longer and hockey is much more established, particularly in California and Denver. LA and San Jose are selling out their arenas, and Colorado, Anaheim and Dallas have in recent years. California is now sending NHL players to the draft and is a roller hockey hotbed. Denver has a fairly mature NCAA hockey program and Dallas's problems are the personal bankruptcy of the owner. LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Colorado and Dallas were all there before Phoenix and if the Coyotes were to leave, I don't think it would have much if any effect on any of these teams or on the perception of the NHL in the region (outside of Phoenix).

I think the real reason the league is working so hard to keep the Coyotes in Glendale is because someone local - the City of Glendale, is working really hard to keep the team in place. In Atlanta, while the fans may want the team, the owners sure as hell don't. In Glendale, the owners of the arena, believe the Coyotes are vital to the success of the arena. In Atlanta, the owners of the arena want to jettison the Thrasher for more Lady Gaga dates. That has to piss off the Commissioner.

Thank you. The NHL is going to fight hard to keep a team in Phoenix, but not Atlanta? Makes no sense. The conspiracy theories are ridiculous. I guarantee the NHL doesn't want the Thrashers to leave. The relocation fee is to stick it to ASG more than to cover the Phoenix losses.

 

[peter sullivan]

The cluster&%$# called ASG shutout the NHL at its own game. Howre' you going to sell the Thrashers locally without an arena to be playing in?. OK then. So, how about the league drops the gloves?. Why didnt they strip ASG of the franchise for acting in bad faith?. Force it on them through the courts in Georgia?. Worst case, Contract the franchise & hold a dispersal draft of the players in combination with the immediate awarding of an expansion franchise to Winnipeg. Leave ASG whistling Dixie up a Dark Alley instead of receiving the $80-$110M they'll get paid for screwing over the fans, the city & the NHL. But no, for the sake of expediency the NHL is running out on its fans. Its done nothing but apparently vote on a plan for relo. Wheres their fight now?. The NHL could have & should have used the courts to slap ASG silly & forced them to comply with the terms of their franchise agreement. Sure, ASG claims it did comply with it, but guess what?. No one believes them & the proof goes in the opposite direction. This is just wrong on every level. I think both Gary Bettman & Bill Daly should be resigning over this. I have supported & respected many of their efforts & achievements over the years, no personal grudges or irrational dislikes for either one. Their failing. They need to go.

that would sure be great for the league....buy one team out of bankruptcy after a long legal battle, own them for two years with various potential owners coming and going....at the same time a heated legal battle in another market to force the owners there to stay, imploding teams, dispersal drafts, expansion in another market.

i think the NHL is looking for some stability and will be relieved to not have to go through protracted efforts to keep an unprofitable team in a disinterested market....the league's legitimacy is taking a beating.

 

[pepty]

You got that right. According to Brunts article in the Globe&Mail, the BOG's tentatively approved the relocation from Atlanta to Winnipeg 3mnths ago, yet we've had both Daly & Bettman claiming otherwise, that a local owner was being sought, when in fact all the NHL did to expedite a sale was to hold a secret vote approving relo. .

The Board of Governors and all concerned have flatly denied that.

I don't believe anything Shoalts or Brunt say about the NHL BOG or Bettman as they have been on a never ending vendetta since all the Jim Balsillie excitement, actually before as they were major Goodenow boosters too.

However, according to some reports the BOG had been told that there may be a team, either Atlanta or Phoenix, moving to Winnipeg.

Knowing how determined Bettman and the BOG are to keep the NHL in large high profile markets, it is not believable that they would shrug off what was going down in Atlanta.

But with the owners of the arena and the teams determined to sell the Thrshers off separately without any ties to the arena, and with all the litigation flying around there for years, there was little the NHL could do.

I expect that they are furious about this and determined to make ASG pay through the nose if possible.

 

[JuniorNelson]

The next CBA promises to be hotly contested. A long layoff is to be expected. Weak franchises are going to suffer financial losses similar or worse than last lockout.

The Coyotes won't be sold prior to the CBA because the NHL wants to control access to the books, sheltering them from unwarranted disclosure. I think they will fight any examination or else why step in at the bankruptcy trial?