Why do you think Messier rarely had opponents retaliate against him?

[blood gin]

Mess was a funny mix of star player and borderline goon. In Edmonton he was protected by proxy, goons ready to avenge Wayne were ready to get into pugilism for Mark as well. Later rules were in somewhat confusion, noone knew exactly what could be done in mid 90s until lockout 04-05. Stevens for example should've been wailed upon by several guys after "killing" Kariya, but time had changed.

Who's going to come after Stevens really?

Nobody wanted to end up "Next"

 

[VanIslander]

Moose wuz strong.

 

[streitz]

Who's going to come after Stevens really?

Nobody wanted to end up "Next"

With all due respect to Stevens this wasn't 1995. He was still extremely effective but the entire ducks being intimidated by a 38-39 year old man says more about them then it does about Stevens at that point in his career.


Side note, looking at the ducks roster. Sykora had such a weird career. Wins the cup with the devils then loses the next year. Loses against the devils in 03, loses in the finals again in 08 then as an old man goes in a cinderella run in 2012 with...The Devils.

At least he won one but man that has to sting losing in the finals 4 times.
Edit- Didn't even notice he played 7 games for the pens in 09 so I guess he does have 2 rings.

 

[sr edler]

Who's going to come after Stevens really?

Nobody wanted to end up "Next"

Well, if you were observant enough you probably didn't have to end up next, since Stevens' thing was to masquarade predatory hits as normal hits. He wouldn't elbow or cross-check you from behind or swing his stick like a mental patient.

 

[rfournier103]

I don’t know Mark Messier personally, but I’ve met people ‘like’ him, and the poster who referenced Clint Eastwood’s “Unforgiven” hit the nail right on the head.

If you’re going to engage someone like Mark Messier, you’re going to have to really take him down hard. Because if you don’t, he’s going to hurt you. Badly. You’re going to have to be as dirty as he is. As mean as he is. And you’re going to have to expect yet further retaliation from a man capable of ANYTHING. He was a player without a conscience and no regard for his opponents’ well-being. I think most players probably felt it was better to take what he dished out because it would only be worse if they fought back.

I’ll reference another Clint Eastwood movie - “Firefox.” When the British Intelligence officer is briefing Col. Gant about the KGB, he says; “it is like a monster. Walk by quietly enough, it may just sniff at you. But if you awaken it...”

 

[Blade Runner]

Messier's toughest opponent on his fight card was Marty McSorley.
They fought four times and Mess lost them all.

 

[blood gin]

Well, if you were observant enough you probably didn't have to end up next, since Stevens' thing was to masquarade predatory hits as normal hits. He wouldn't elbow or cross-check you from behind or swing his stick like a mental patient.

But by the rules of the day, and the era, they were normal hits. And he wasn't the only one throwing them either

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

there is a famous example in the dying seconds of game six of the 94 finals where a huge scary guy was going to tune up messier but was prevented from doing it.

after that infamous cheap shot on linden after linden was already down, pat quinn (a very big guy himself) apparently jumped on sergio momesso’s back to keep him from jumping over the boards. the way i’ve heard it described, momesso went into blackout psycho mode and quinn was worried he might actually kill someone out there.

a missed opportunity, in many senses.

 

[blood gin]

there is a famous example in the dying seconds of game six of the 94 finals where a huge scary guy was going to tune up messier but was prevented from doing it.

after that infamous cheap shot on linden after linden was already down, pat quinn (a very big guy himself) apparently jumped on sergio momesso’s back to keep him from jumping over the boards. the way i’ve heard it described, momesso went into blackout psycho mode and quinn was worried he might actually kill someone out there.

a missed opportunity, in many senses.

Yea if you watch the end of that game as the seconds ticked off you can see Momesso (and Kay Whitmore) standing up on the Canucks bench just livid

 

[The Panther]

after that infamous cheap shot on linden after linden was already down, pat quinn (a very big guy himself) apparently jumped on sergio momesso’s back to keep him from jumping over the boards. the way i’ve heard it described, momesso went into blackout psycho mode and quinn was worried he might actually kill someone out there.

a missed opportunity, in many senses.

You're right. Seeing Momesso destroyed by Messier would've been awesome!

 

[streitz]

You're right. Seeing Momesso destroyed by Messier would've been awesome!

Do you seriously think Messier would of taken Momesso?


This isn't a question of who was a better player. Messier wasn't much of a fighter. That being said I'm sure he would of injured Momesso or jumped him from behind a few years later like he did to Otto.

 

[sr edler]

You're right. Seeing Momesso destroyed by Messier would've been awesome!

Serious question, did a certain amount of Edmonton Oilers fans cheer for their old players when they won as the New York Oilers in 94?

 

[blood gin]

I don’t know Mark Messier personally, but I’ve met people ‘like’ him, and the poster who referenced Clint Eastwood’s “Unforgiven” hit the nail right on the head.

If you’re going to engage someone like Mark Messier, you’re going to have to really take him down hard. Because if you don’t, he’s going to hurt you. Badly. You’re going to have to be as dirty as he is. As mean as he is. And you’re going to have to expect yet further retaliation from a man capable of ANYTHING. He was a player without a conscience and no regard for his opponents’ well-being. I think most players probably felt it was better to take what he dished out because it would only be worse if they fought back.

I’ll reference another Clint Eastwood movie - “Firefox.” When the British Intelligence officer is briefing Col. Gant about the KGB, he says; “it is like a monster. Walk by quietly enough, it may just sniff at you. But if you awaken it...”

Thing is though with Messier many of his incidents were calculated with the intent of establishing the psychological edge over the opposition and getting them off their game. At the end of Game 6 in 1994 he went after an injured Linded probably because he wanted to rile the Canucks up, to change the narrative a bit heading into game 7, to get them to do stupid things, and to establish dominance. I'm the captain and I'm taking out YOUR captain.

Also with his seemingly random high stick concussing Doug Gilmour in 1997. When you see your best player brutalized like that illegally it is dejecting and does have an effect on you

 

[blood gin]

Serious question, did a certain amount of Edmonton Oilers fans cheer for their old players when they won as the New York Oilers in 94?

Have to be fair here. They were the OilerHawks. Larmer, Hudson, Olczyk, Noonan, Gilbert

 

[The Panther]

I never hear the end of the Messier-brutalized-Linden thing at the end of game six in '94. Yet no video of it exists. I've never heard any impartial opinions on it either.

I have to raise this point as the Messier haters tend to be rather impartial, and Canucks fans still blame Messier for the Holocaust, the assassination of Kennedy, and global pollution.

 

[streitz]

what i'd like to know is why are the refs just letting a 20 year old messier who hasn't proved anything in the league yet swing his stick like that at a two-time norris winning future hall of famer with a decade of respected service?

like, can you imagine them letting the young tkachuk swing his stick like that at ray bourque in 1993? or if matt tkachuk pulled that on chara today? the refs would tackle him right then and there and drag him off the ice before chara changes his mind and squishes him like a bug.

but as for the rest of the question, iirc messier had a reputation for being the strongest guy in the league. i remember early on in lindros' rookie year there was this quote from another player to the effect of "i thought mark messier was strong, but this lindros kid is unlike anything i could have imagined." i always found that odd, that it wasn't some giant like otto or hatcher, or a head smasher like probert, and this was a league that had a post-breakthrough gary roberts in it, peak kevin stevens, cam neely, all guys that were bigger, beefier guys than messier. but up to lindros, he was still the gold standard.
.

In Theo Fleury's book he mentioned in the 91 Canada cup training camp Lindros as an 18 Y/O scored the highest on some Strength test and Stevens was the only one who came close.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I never hear the end of the Messier-brutalized-Linden thing at the end of game six in '94. Yet no video of it exists. I've never heard any impartial opinions on it either.

I have to raise this point as the Messier haters tend to be rather impartial, and Canucks fans still blame Messier for the Holocaust, the assassination of Kennedy, and global pollution.

There is a call of it on video and plenty of accounts of it.. and plenty of history of Messier pulling that kind of garbage to make it fit his MO.

If I recall correctly it was actually Graves or Anderson who cheapshotted Linden in the first place and big tough Messier just hit him some more while he was down.

 

[blood gin]

In Theo Fleury's book he mentioned in the 91 Canada cup training camp Lindros as an 18 Y/O scored the highest on some Strength test and Stevens was the only one who came close.

Yea Stevens was a big health and fitness guy. Kept himself in incredible shape. If not for the concussion he could've been one of those guys who was still effective into his early 40's

 

[The Panther]

There is a call of it on video and plenty of accounts of it.. and plenty of history of Messier pulling that kind of garbage to make it fit his MO.

If I recall correctly it was actually Graves or Anderson who cheapshotted Linden in the first place and big tough Messier just hit him some more while he was down.

You mean a call of it by the Canucks' home announcer, and no video evidence?

 

[streitz]

My favorite Messier moment was when he sucker punched Macoun and broke his jaw.


Karma for breaking Hawerchuks ribs

 

[sr edler]

Messier hit on Linden game 6 in 94 is now conspiracy theory material? Interesting.

Have to be fair here. They were the OilerHawks. Larmer, Hudson, Olczyk, Noonan, Gilbert

You mean Matteau? Olczyk only played 1 playoff game for the Rangers (having also played several years for Toronto and Winnipeg in-between) and Hudson played 0 (and was actually a pick-up from the Oilers, having played 5 games for the club the previous season).

 

[blood gin]

Messier hit on Linden game 6 in 94 is now conspiracy theory material? Interesting.



You mean Matteau? Olczyk only played 1 playoff game for the Rangers (having also played several years for Toronto and Winnipeg in-between) and Hudson played 0 (and was actually a pick-up from the Oilers, having played 5 games for the club the previous season).

Didn't leave off Matteau because of the trauma. Actually somehow got it in my head he was with the Habs before and not Blackhawks. Aside from those OT winners he was actually one of the Rangers best forwards. Gave us fits all series

 

[Big Phil]

There is a call of it on video and plenty of accounts of it.. and plenty of history of Messier pulling that kind of garbage to make it fit his MO.

If I recall correctly it was actually Graves or Anderson who cheapshotted Linden in the first place and big tough Messier just hit him some more while he was down.

I'll be honest I have never seen or heard about that shot. I was sure there is a video somewhere of Game 6 of the 1994 finals. So I found what is the best you can probably find. Last minute of Game 6 it looks like Graves (?) takes a run at Linden. Unnecessary too. Then the camera follows the puck and the announcer (I think in this case it is Mike Emrick) is in shock at how Messier drills Linden as he is going to the bench. The footage starts at 1:03:00 or so. You never see the Messier hit on Linden but it happens, or something happens because the crowd reacts, Emrick reacts in shock too. But there is 30 seconds left in the game and they never show a replay.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's Gary Thorne, not Doc Emrick...

Emrick, as much as I love him, calls every game like it's on the radio...so it were him, we might have a more vivid account...

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Looking back I'm often surprised by how quickly the linesmen would get between Messier and any serious fighter. In those days they were much more likely to "let 'em go" but when you look at, say, the two Messier / McSorely fights, there's all kinds of interference from the officials.

Messier may have been "psycho", but he was far from the only dangerous guy out there.