Why Do The Penguins Struggle With Player Development?

[rightwinglock]

True. Even he slipped as last season wore on, but he had that shoulder injury too.

If they expect every prospect to come in and play like him for the first 2 months of the season just to earn some cushion, they should just come out publicly and say it. At least we would know not to expect anything and to be pleasantly surprised if someone comes out of the blue.

 

[rightwinglock]

Most of the obvious has been touched on, but here are a couple of points not touched on yet:

- Shero had a very narrow scope of what he wanted, and he didn't cast his lasso very far outside of the NCAA/CHL.

Under Allvin, their head Euro scout, they have exactly 0 full time Euro scouts. The Wings have four full time Euro scouts under Anderson. You think the extra time and money spent scouting Euro talent has paid off for the Wings over the years?

The Pens need to tap into the Euro talent pool much, much better moving fwd. it's not a coincidence their two best fwd prospects outside the NHL are currently playing in Euro leagues.

- Hynes does a fantastic job of getting his young guys NHL ready. The failure does not lay at the minor league level. Take that how you will.

I'm already on the Panarin train for next season. This year the first ever croatian trained player played in the NHL. Borna Rendulić with the Avs, now he's not some all world talent, especially considering our programs and what he has gone through, but I really wanted the Pens to look at him when the rumours about him going to the NHL started. He didn't set the world on fire, but injuries struck, he found himself on the first line with Duchene and Landeskog and suddenly the Avs started winning with them showing some great chemistry. He may never amount to much, but gaining an asset that can play with skilled players, even if only, in emergency situations is still something to be valued, especially if free.

 

[billybudd]

Poor draft strategy. Period. We didn't fail to develop role players or scoring wings; we didn't pick any guys who could do those jobs.

Too many D as a proportion of total picks and what they have emphasized in forwards (nationality) is less important than what they ignore (skating, size, shooting, jam, work ethic).

In addition, in late rounds, they've tended to roll the dice that some horribly flawed player playing in a scouting hotspot is secretly Cliff Ronning and nobody but them noticed. Instead of, wisely, picking role player track guys who might actually still be on the board and just signing their "home run" pick when he's an undrafted free agent and watching him bust then.

Now, whether that draft strategy was set by Shero or the directors of scouting are just fools, I don't know. Most recent draft suggests it's a lot of column A.

Kapanen is not American enough and Lindo is a sort of player Shero never picked in 8 years for that draft to have shook out that way with him in charge. Even if both bust, it signals a shift in thinking.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If they expect every prospect to come in and play like him for the first 2 months of the season just to earn some cushion, they should just come out publicly and say it. At least we would know not to expect anything and to be pleasantly surprised if someone comes out of the blue.

I'm not waiting for them to say it. Their actions speak way louder than words.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Rutherford saying our excess of defensemen is what allowed them to move Despres is so stupid I can barely believe it. You know why we have so many defense prospects, Jimmy? Because that's all we ****ing drafted in the early rounds. In case you missed it, our depth of young defensemen is mirrored by our pathetically shallow group of young forwards.

If the young defense were traded, they should've been moved for good young forwards on comparably affordable deals so we wouldn't have to cobble together scraps every FA season to ice a full contingent of forwards.

But here we are. Less defense prospects, no better on the ice, and another summer of FA dumpster diving on the horizon.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Blowing the doors off off training camp the year you were drafted > Experienced Veteran > Normal Developmental Track

I'm pretty sure that's somewhere in the Pens mission statement

 

[rightwinglock]

I'm not waiting for them to say it. Their actions speak way louder than words.

Yeah, we all see it, but there is always that glimmer of hope it will change.

Gotta say, have a good feeling Rust will be brought along nicely. Unlike others, he was actually rewarded for good play, believe he was never scratched, benched maybe once and sent down when the injured guys came back.

 

[cygnus47]

Its a combination of things. I think that the main issue is that the coaching staff are too risk averse. Playing Bennett in the top 6 is a "risk", so they're not willing to commit to it. Playing him on the 4th line reduces that risk. Playing Despres in the top 4 was a "risk", while playing Lovejoy who has already done it isn't (performance be damned). Creating competitions among the bottom 6 or allowing rookies the positions is a "risk", because maybe NO-ONE is up to it. Taking Kunitz out of the top 6 is a "risk" because we've been successful with him there before.

Trusting young guys to play up to increased roles (rather than leaving them in roles with no responsibility and no reward) is the biggest risk of all, and is one that we've been too scared to do but is completely necessary in player development. It creates a huge attitude issue where players don't feel responsible for their performances because either (a) nothing they do matters or will result in more responsibility, or (b) their role is secure and they don't feel responsible for the results.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Unless a player comes in right off the bat and is instantly a top line forward/defenseman, this organization simply doesn't have the willingness/patience/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to stick with them.

When you look at how much rope guys like Brandon Saad got in Chicago, or how Los Angeles was more than willing to run with a Pearson/Carter/Toffoli second line, in the playoffs no less, while the Penguins look for any reason to remove Bennett from the top six or to limit Despres' minutes on D, it just highlights the issue even more.

I hate with a passion how this team operates when it comes to young players.

 

[displacedpensfan]

Shero had his idea of what a Penguins player should be (I actually still couldn't tell you what that is looking purely at his drafting and acquisitions)

Ideal Shero/Bylsma player: "Me Muck. Me Grind. Me get to my game."

 

[Iffyiffiffer]

ll that great, but he has raw skill and potential based off that. Is it really the coaches fault that he's invisible 90% of the time?

Play him.
Play.
Him.
PLAY HIM.

We have his constant dearth of wingers and still Bennett isn't allowed in the top 6 for more than 5 minutes. Instead it's "go perform with blackhole Sutter" or "go rot on the 4th line." When we have 10 game leads in the division we still can't be bothered to get young guys minutes.

Where would Despres be now if Bylsma didn't bury him? Would he be giving that inkling of inconsistency? The team purposely doesn't give Despres experience and then trades him citing they want more experience, getting a player who only has 100 games more. Despres could have made that gap insignificant if they bothered instead of giving infinite minutes and games to players THEy WERE GOING TO LET WALK! They're tools. Out and out tools.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Play him.
Play.
Him.
PLAY HIM.

We have his constant dearth of wingers and still Bennett isn't allowed in the top 6 for more than 5 minutes. Instead it's "go perform with blackhole Sutter" or "go rot on the 4th line." When we have 10 game leads in the division we still can't be bothered to get young guys minutes.

Where would Despres be now if Bylsma didn't bury him? Would he be giving that inkling of inconsistency? The team purposely doesn't give Despres experience and then trades him citing they want more experience, getting a player who only has 100 games more. Despres could have made that gap insignificant if they bothered instead of giving infinite minutes and games to players THEy WERE GOING TO LET WALK! They're tools. Out and out tools.

I know it's hard to believe but maybe BB isn't playing top 6 because he's not good enough to play top 6. Good teams/true contenders don't give out spots based on draft position and potential. If BB can't beat out Blake Comeau for a top 6 spot that's an indication of BB, not the coach.

 

[Til the End of Time]

the penguins as an organization have always undervalued merit and overvalued familiarity. it's been the case for more than two decades and extends beyond just the players and includes support staff. it permeates every aspect of the organization.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

I'm kinda surprised as to how people can still be wondering why we keep trading away draft picks. We've won only 1 cup during the crosby/Malkin era that has spanned almost a decade. 1 cup with two generational players on our team. No amount of 2nd, 3rd, or even 1st round picks are going to remedy that, especially not when you consider that they'd be later round picks.

Personally i have no problems with the organization trading 1st and 2nd rounders in order to bring in players that can bring us closer to immediate success. However, my problem is with the fact that these draft picks are being traded for the WRONG GUYS, under coaches that seem completely clueless as to how to use them (see Bylsma with Iginla).

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I know it's hard to believe but maybe BB isn't playing top 6 because he's not good enough to play top 6. Good teams/true contenders don't give out spots based on draft position and potential. If BB can't beat out Blake Comeau for a top 6 spot that's an indication of BB, not the coach.

This presumes that spots are handed out based on merit rather than tenure, which is straight ********.

As I pointed out earlier, Bennett's ES production is virtually identical to Kunitz' despite getting 2 fewer ES minutes per game and playing primarily with possession-suck Sutter instead of the best centers in the world.

We've all seen how ****** Kunitz has played the most of the season in spite of being placed in the best possible position of any NHL winger to succeed, but the only consequence he faced was a 2 game exile to the 3rd line and they couldn't move him back up quickly enough. Meanwhile, Bennett's a nightly toss-up with Craig Adams because he's "inconsistent".

Suggesting that the Pens run a performance-based roster is hilarious.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I know it's hard to believe but maybe BB isn't playing top 6 because he's not good enough to play top 6. Good teams/true contenders don't give out spots based on draft position and potential. If BB can't beat out Blake Comeau for a top 6 spot that's an indication of BB, not the coach.

Sort of like how those same coaches felt Despres wasn't good enough for top four minutes, yet two straight games with his new team and he's been played top 3 minutes both games?

I know it's hard to believe but maybe the Pens organization aren't the best examples of knowing how to play youngsters in their proper roles.

 

[billybudd]

This presumes that spots are handed out based on merit rather than tenure, which is straight ********.

As I pointed out earlier, Bennett's ES production is virtually identical to Kunitz' despite getting 2 fewer ES minutes per game and playing primarily with possession-suck Sutter instead of the best centers in the world.

That's an argument for Downie being in the top 6 over Kunitz, not Bennett being in the top 6 over anybody.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's an argument for Downie being in the top 6 over Kunitz, not Bennett being in the top 6 over anybody.

Read what I wrote. That is the ****ing argument, much as you hate Bennett.

 

[Frederick Stanley]

A lack of patience, too moch focus on experience and they're hell-bent on treating vets the "right" way.

 

[IcedCapp]

A lack of patience, too moch focus on experience and they're hell-bent on treating vets the "right" way.

Don't wanna upset the room!!!! ! !!! ! ! !

 

[Darth Vitale]

What is "Not Learning From the Successes and Mistakes of Others".

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

They could've played Despres more for sure but at age 23 things were coming along fine they just shouldn't have traded him lol. (they did trade him in case you guys didn't hear )

 

[IcedCapp]

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Beau Bennett
Kris Letang
Derrick Pouliot
Marc-Andre Fleury

 

[Coastal Kev]

It all starts at the top. You have to have a GM that is passionate about developing talent from within. Take a look at the Pirates, they had bad GM after bad GM for nearly 15 years who knew nothing about drafting and player development. Finally they get a GM that has built one of the best systems in under 5 years.

Shero obviously wasn't that guy and neither is Rutherford. It will take the right GM to get the Pens back on track.

 

[Freeptop]

Before I start, please note that I don't disagree with any of the following posters' main points from those posts. I'm just making a couple of specific points.

Maybe someone's even willing to trade a mid to late pick for Ehrhoff or Martin's rights.

I suspect the days of trading for UFA rights are over, thanks to the new "interview period" prior to free agency that the new CBA added. Why give up assets to talk to a UFA before other teams can offer a contract when you can already do so without giving up assets?

Likewise, if you're a pending UFA and the season is already over, why negotiate any sort of contract before you get to the interview period? Before the interview period existed, GMs could play hardball and say they need an answer right away or no offer, so the player wouldn't get a chance to find out what other teams might be interested without giving up on that offer.

With the interview period, they now get to find out which teams are interested before anyone can make an offer. Which means there's far less incentive to agree to anything prior to the interview period, and thus, they are more likely to end up going to free agency in general.

I don't think it's a coincidence that we haven't seen many "draft pick for UFA rights" deals made since the new CBA went into effect. In fact, as far as I can determine, the only time it has happened was this past summer when the Sharks traded Dan Boyle to the Islanders on June 1st for a 5th round pick. Note that the Islanders were unable to sign Boyle.

Under Allvin, their head Euro scout, they have exactly 0 full time Euro scouts.

That's not actually true. They also have Tommy Westlund and Erkki Rajamaki, who are based in Sweden and Finland, respectively. Westlund's been a scout since fall 2011, and Rajamaki started in fall 2013.

They're listed as "Amateur Scouts" on the Pens' website, but they are very definitely European scouts.

That's not to say they couldn't stand to hire more, but it does mean they have only one less European Scout than the Red Wings.