Why do people complain about the Norris?

[alexmanu]

Actually a defenseman to be successful in today's NHL, they need to be great at both ends of the ice. "defenseman who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."
No where does it say defense should hold more weight. It's all aspects of the game.

Including the PK one would think!?

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Karlsson was fine this year, I probably would have voted him. If not it would be very very close.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Nonsense, PKing is one of the most difficult things to do as a defenseman and if you are elite in that area alongside even strength and PP then clearly you are a more valuable player.

While I think Karlsson was deserving of at least one Norris I find it hard to believe that Weber has yet to win one.

But Karlsson is the more elite player in even strength and PP. And like it's been said before. Ottawa's top PK is their 3rd pairing and, if you're not familiar with the team, it's a pretty bad 3rd pairing.

 

[pitcher]

I find it hard to believe that Weber and Doughty both have none while Erik Karlsson has two. lol. Does he even play on the PK?

he doesn't

Karlsson is an awesome and elite player in this league, every GM would want him in his team, and nobody can deny that. But I just find it sad that the one trophy that is given to the best defenseman almost always goes to the one who scored the most. Was Karlsson season good? It really was, specially the 2nd half. I don't understand tho how his 6 extra points he had over Subban is considered a better season, considering PK had way better overall game (pretty evident when you watch both play, and confirmed by advanced stats), better 5-5 production, and is playing on the pk. And that is only between the 2 of them... since like you said, guys like Dougthy and Weber have been much much better overall defenseman in their career so far, and still haven't clinch a Norris and Karlsson have 2. At least Keith has won it twice in the last few years... there is that.

 

[Epsilon]

Yes and also defence too.

Keith, daughty and weber are the best all around d men. I have no idea how Karlsson won this year, and its not because I'm a leafs fan

Even if this were true, it's irrelevant to the question of who had the best 2014-15 regular season.

Nicklas Lidstrom was still the best defenseman in the NHL in 2004, one off season (by his standards) didn't change that. But he rightfully didn't win the Norris trophy that year, because his 2003-04 season was not as good on its own merits as those of other d-men.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Including the PK one would think!?

Well Datsyuk won a Selke without PKing so I'd imagine Karlsson can win a Norris without doing it as well.

 

[alexmanu]

People saying "remember its about the best all-round Dman". OK so that includes PK, ES and PP. Who are the best at all three combined?

I mean if we're using that sort of analyzing tool then Weber and Doughty have more of a case than Karlsson.

It is clearly a scoring award when it shouldn't be. People defending it based on historical winners don't counter the fact that maybe it has always been awarded on an incorrect basis not taking into account the actual award definition.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

he doesn't

Karlsson is an awesome and elite player in this league, every GM would want him in his team, and nobody can deny that. But I just find it sad that the one trophy that is given to the best defenseman almost always goes to the one who scored the most. Was Karlsson season good? It really was, specially the 2nd half. I don't understand tho how his 6 extra points he had over Subban is considered a better season, considering PK had way better overall game (pretty evident when you watch both play, and confirmed by advanced stats), better 5-5 production, and is playing on the pk. And that is only between the 2 of them... since like you said, guys like Dougthy and Weber have been much much better overall defenseman in their career so far, and still haven't clinch a Norris and Karlsson have 2. At least Keith has won it twice in the last few years... there is that.

[mod] Even ask Habs fans, some of the less bias ones will tell you Karlsson was better in their series this year in the playoffs. So no it's not pretty evident when you watch them play.

 

[txpd]

Playing on the penalty kill is really not that important now that modern penalty-killing systems have been employed which greatly simplify penalty-killing assignments. In many cases it's just as effective to use 2nd and even 3rd pairing defensemen for that role and save their top pairing guys for the powerplay and even strength.

its also true that today's reliance on shot blocking makes it far more dangerous to use your 30 minute pp1 defenseman on the pk.

 

[Ducks DVM]

But I mean, was Coffey a guy you wanted on the ice down by a goal? He won it 3 times.

Leetch as well, but to a lesser extent.

No, but Karlsson is nowhere remotely near the offensive talent Coffey was (no slight on Karlsson, nobody else has been either) he finished 2nd, 5th, and 3rd in points three years running. Or (to a lesser extent) Leetch, and I'd argue you were perfectly fine with Leetch on the ice at the end of the game.

The guys I listed were the main guys for a good 20 year stretch though, and they were far better all around players. People who grew up then want to see it go to a player like that, unless the defenseman is putting up absolutely absurd numbers. The guys these days just put up really good numbers. They aren't absurd.

 

[The Undertaker]

Because Karlsson is so much better than everyone else and is going to win the award another 6-7 times in the next decade.

 

[alexmanu]

its also true that today's reliance on shot blocking makes it far more dangerous to use your 30 minute pp1 defenseman on the pk.

All the more reason to award those elite Dmen that are willing to put their body on the line in all facets of the game...

 

[WhiteLight*]

People saying "remember its about the best all-round Dman". OK so that includes PK, ES and PP. Who are the best at all three combined?

I mean if we're using that sort of analyzing tool then Weber and Doughty have more of a case than Karlsson.

It is clearly a scoring award when it shouldn't be. People defending it based on historical winners don't counter the fact that maybe it has always been awarded on an incorrect basis not taking into account the actual award definition.

Or, maybe your definition "best all-round" is wrong. Yeah, that's more likely.

 

[Leafs87]

Even if this were true, it's irrelevant to the question of who had the best 2014-15 regular season.

Nicklas Lidstrom was still the best defenseman in the NHL in 2004, one off season (by his standards) didn't change that. But he rightfully didn't win the Norris trophy that year, because his 2003-04 season was not as good on its own merits as those of other d-men.

You think Karlsson had the best season as a defenceman?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

No, but Karlsson is nowhere remotely near the offensive talent Coffey was (no slight on Karlsson, nobody else has been either) he finished 2nd, 5th, and 3rd in points three years running. Or (to a lesser extent) Leetch, and I'd argue you were perfectly fine with Leetch on the ice at the end of the game.

The guys I listed were the main guys for a good 20 year stretch though, and they were far better all around players. People who grew up then want to see it go to a player like that, unless the defenseman is putting up absolutely absurd numbers. The guys these days just put up really good numbers. They aren't absurd.

Well I guess it's a mystery why Karlsson was constantly being used in OT during the Senators run to the playoffs where it was win or you're not making the playoffs. He's have some games where he didn't come off the ice.

 

[pitcher]

Well Datsyuk won a Selke without PKing so I'd imagine Karlsson can win a Norris without doing it as well.

You would be very lucky to find anyone arguing about Datsyuk winning his Selke trophies.

 

[Epsilon]

You think Karlsson had the best season as a defenceman?

Yes, his 2014-15 regular season was the best all-around season produced by a defenseman during this NHL regular season.

 

[alexmanu]

Or, maybe your definition "best all-round" is wrong. Yeah, that's more likely.

OK so should the Norris purely be a scoring award and we should create a new one for defense?

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

People saying "remember its about the best all-round Dman". OK so that includes PK, ES and PP. Who are the best at all three combined?

I mean if we're using that sort of analyzing tool then Weber and Doughty have more of a case than Karlsson.

It is clearly a scoring award when it shouldn't be. People defending it based on historical winners don't counter the fact that maybe it has always been awarded on an incorrect basis not taking into account the actual award definition.

Just going to ignore my point on Datsyuk?

 

[pitcher]

[mod] Even ask Habs fans, some of the less bias ones will tell you Karlsson was better in their series this year in the playoffs. So no it's not pretty evident when you watch them play.

Too bad the playoffs are not supposed to count for the Norris.

And if they were to count, Keith would have win the Norris pretty easily.

 

[alexmanu]

Yes, his 2014-15 regular season was the best all-around season produced by a defenseman during this NHL regular season.

Don't see how you can say that when it's pretty clear that the guy is not elite at defending. He's elite at scoring.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

You would be very lucky to find anyone arguing about Datsyuk winning his Selke trophies.

What? That's not what I'm saying.

 

[Epsilon]

Too bad the playoffs are not supposed to count for the Norris.

And they don't. But I suspect more than a few of the voters who placed Doughty highly took non-14/15 regular season stuff like last year's playoffs or the Olympics into account, even if only subconsciously.

 

[alexmanu]

Just going to ignore my point on Datsyuk?

It's a non-point. That award was maybe incorrectly allocated. As I have previously stated, listing historical winners is not a great argument when that award may have been given on the basis of a different criteria than the actual stated definition of the award. The Selke isn't the Norris and if you wish to debate that I suggest a new thread.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Too bad the playoffs are not supposed to count for the Norris.

Too bad? Uh last time I checked my favorite player won the Norris so I guess it's boo hoo for me.

And you think that Subban is a better all around player, Karlsson proved he isn't last playoffs.