Why did the Sharks 2006-2019 not win a cup?

[vikash1987]

Just a technicality, perhaps, but since it’s come up a couple times: I wouldn’t lump 2004 into this timeframe when analyzing the Sharks…

* pre-Lockout: Sharks were $10mm below league avg. in payroll in ‘03-‘04, and their roster was full of low-profile players, as well as key guys such as Damphousse and Ricci and Korolyuk who were no longer there post-Lockout. TBH, I see a closer link between 2004 and 2002 (when the Sharks were a game away from the WCF) than between 2004 and 2006.

* pre-Thornton: Cup expectations for the Sharks were very different before vs. after that trade….stating the obvious. In fact, the Sharks were underdogs in ‘04 against St. Louis and a stacked Colorado team.

* new leadership: ‘03-‘04 was the first full season without captain Owen Nolan, and with new coach Ron Wilson and new GM Doug Wilson. The mission, with these new faces, was to turn things around after a dismal season. That narrative didn’t really fit with the later seasons.

 

[The Pale King]

Joe Thornton's highest playoff goal total was 4 goals at age 39. 32 goals in 187 playoff games, close to 4000 minutes in the playoffs. So you're getting maybe 1 goal on average per series if you get to six games from your best player. Show me a team who's won with that formula. Jumbo Joe never kept teams honest because they could just give him the shot at all times to no detriment.

Reminds me a bit of Doughty in the sense that he's an elite player where his shot is clearly the worst part of his game, and yet he never seemed to work on it (Doughty for what it's worth seems to have finally figured out that he needs to improve this aspect of his game after 8-9 seasons of diminishing returns).

For a random and unflattering comparison, Dwight King scored 4 goals for the Kings in the WC Finals in 2012.

Starts and ends at the top for SJ. Much worse goalies than Nabokov have won Cups as starters.

 

[The Pale King]

It's fun cause you can look at Thornton's playoff year where he scored 1 goal in 7 playoff games with the Leafs at age 41 and cringe, but that was basically what he did as a goal scorer throughout his prime in the playoffs with the Sharks (.17 GPG vs .14 GPG).

 

[RocketCityRocker]

There were too many series where the Sharks just lacked the killer instinct to put teams away. I'll pick out a couple of examples:

2006: Sharks have a 2-0 series lead vs the Oilers in WCSF. In Game 4, with a 2-1 series lead and a two-goal lead, the Oilers start the comeback and then Toskala has a horrible giveaway that results in the game-tying goal. The Sharks wouldn't win another game after that and bow out in 6.

2007: Sharks have a 2-1 series lead vs the Wings in WCSF. In Game 4, with a minute to go and the Wings' goalie pulled, the Sharks somehow give up a 2-on-1 and the Wings score to tie it and then win it in OT. In Game 5, the Sharks would score first, but the Wings score four unanswered, including a horrible giveaway by Nabokov that results in Datsyuk's game-winner.

2011: Sharks have a 3-0 series lead vs. the Wings and then lose the next three, allowing Kronwall to do Kronwall things a couple of times on Sharks forwards. Ultimately, the Sharks hang on to win Game 7.

2014: Many have already mentioned this, but choking away a 3-0 series lead vs. the Kings.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Joe Thornton's highest playoff goal total was 4 goals at age 39. 32 goals in 187 playoff games, close to 4000 minutes in the playoffs. So you're getting maybe 1 goal on average per series if you get to six games from your best player.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but...

From 2006 to 2019, Thornton was 3rd among all playoff performers in assists. And...all of those assists became goals. Which means he produced a fair amount of goals.

Playoff assists (2006 thru 2019):
1. Crosby 120
2. Malkin 105
3. Thornton 90
4. Getzlaf 83
5. Hossa 76

 

[Saskatoon]

The worst luck they got was that in an era where the West usually had the better teams the year they made the cup final the East put out one its best teams of that timeframe in the Pens. They had Phil Kessel on the third line.

The year the Blues won the cup the Sharks had sub .900 goaltending the whole year. Injuries against the Blues still might have done them in but that year I really wanted Wilson to pick up a league average goalie at the deadline.

 

[JianYang]

08 and 09 were the final glory years for Detroit. 2 straight cup final appearances

Then from 2010 to 2015, the hawks were at their peak and took home 3 cups. The kings were also at their peak and took home another two cups in that time span.

The window re-opened a bit afterwards, and they did end up in one final, but their best days were already behind them at this point.

There are several factors for why the sharks couldn't quite get over the hump, but someone mentioned the minefield that was set up in the west for this timespan, and I think it doesn't get talked about enough relative to them "choking". There really wasn't much of a window for the sharks to take their opportunity, because someone just a bit better would get in the way. As we can see, it would have been hard to do much of anything during that 2008-2015 window, and that's over half of the timespan out the window already right off the bat.

 

[GreatGonzo]

There were too many series where the Sharks just lacked the killer instinct to put teams away. I'll pick out a couple of examples:

2006: Sharks have a 2-0 series lead vs the Oilers in WCF. In Game 4, with a 2-1 series lead and a two-goal lead, the Oilers start the comeback and then Nabokov has a horrible giveaway that results in the game-tying goal. The Sharks wouldn't win another game after that and bow out in 6. You have to think if the Sharks hang on, they have a decent chance vs. Carolina.

2007: Sharks have a 2-1 series lead vs the Wings in WCSF. In Game 4, with a minute to go and the Wings' goalie pulled, the Sharks somehow give up a 2-on-1 and the Wings score to tie it and then win it in OT. In Game 5, the Sharks would score first, but the Wings score four unanswered, including a horrible giveaway by Nabokov that results in Datsyuk's game-winner.

2011: Sharks have a 3-0 series lead vs. the Wings and then lose the next three, allowing Kronwall to do Kronwall things a couple of times on Sharks forwards. Ultimately, the Sharks hang on to win Game 7.

2014: Many have already mentioned this, but choking away a 3-0 series lead vs. the Kings.

The sharks weren’t in the WCF against the Oilers in ‘06, it was the second round. I also didn’t see them beating the wings In ‘07.

 

[McGarnagle]

Even though they ended up winning that series and making the WCF that year, Dan Boyle scoring on his own goal in OT was like the encapsulation of the Sharks' franchise in one play.

 

[RocketCityRocker]

The sharks weren’t in the WCF against the Oilers in ‘06, it was the second round. I also didn’t see them beating the wings In ‘07.

My bad on '06, it was the second round. I'm a Wings fan and at the time that '07 Sharks series was going on, I fully expected the Wings to lose that series, despite being a higher seed. At the time, the Wings had three straight disappointing playoffs where they had been "goalied" by lower seeded teams and there was a perception that the Wings weren't built for the playoffs. The Sharks were about a minute away from taking a 3-1 series lead and then it all just evaporated.

 

[vikash1987]

There were too many series where the Sharks just lacked the killer instinct to put teams away. I'll pick out a couple of examples:

2006: Sharks have a 2-0 series lead vs the Oilers in WCF. In Game 4, with a 2-1 series lead and a two-goal lead, the Oilers start the comeback and then Nabokov has a horrible giveaway that results in the game-tying goal. The Sharks wouldn't win another game after that and bow out in 6. You have to think if the Sharks hang on, they have a decent chance vs. Carolina.

2007: Sharks have a 2-1 series lead vs the Wings in WCSF. In Game 4, with a minute to go and the Wings' goalie pulled, the Sharks somehow give up a 2-on-1 and the Wings score to tie it and then win it in OT. In Game 5, the Sharks would score first, but the Wings score four unanswered, including a horrible giveaway by Nabokov that results in Datsyuk's game-winner.

2011: Sharks have a 3-0 series lead vs. the Wings and then lose the next three, allowing Kronwall to do Kronwall things a couple of times on Sharks forwards. Ultimately, the Sharks hang on to win Game 7.

2014: Many have already mentioned this, but choking away a 3-0 series lead vs. the Kings.

I completely agree about the lack of a killer instinct, and about failing to put opposing teams away. And, gosh, to have nearly blown a 3-0 series lead in 2011 and then to have actually done so in 2014….well, to put it mildly, it doesn’t reflect well on Thornton/Marleau and the other leaders on the Sharks during that period.

 

[Gurglesons]

Goaltending and forward depth is the answer.

The one year they got it they matched up against one of the deepest teams of the cup era in the 15-16 Penguins.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Thornton didn't "get it" until about 2012-13, goaltending and a wide open style were all big problems. That said, uncle Gary and the powers that be screwed them in 2016. What happens if they win game 2 as they should have?

 

[Voight]

We'll always have this.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

As some have said, it's crazy they only GOT to the SCF in 2016, and they were past their expiration date by then. Unfortunately, they were never going to beat Pittsburgh who had just caught lightning in a bottle that year, set off by a coaching change in a similar way to '09.

Speaking of '09, that was probably their best team. Easy to forget because they got upset in the first round. Nabokov seemed to be the scapegoat, but that's not fair. Niemi and Jones were good as Sharks too for the most part.

 

[luiginb]

During that time the worst players in the NHL always played on the Sharks third defensive pairing, I still get shivers thinking about the Wallins of the world. Plus goaltending was never consistent. Thornton's play also dropped some 20% in the playoffs, making him mortal. I always thought Marleau was the same player in the playoffs, didn't think the critique towards him was warranted.

 

[Crosby2010]

In some of the early years Nabokov played less than stellar. Not for a guy you'd expect to be among the league's elite. It is not that his stats are bad, they weren't, it is just that he never was that shut down goalie in a series that they needed. He had the ability to steal a series but never did. But he is not the one to blame the most. I think Thornton is the one you have to pin the most on, but more on him in a minute. Marleau traditionally can tip toe away from blame with this stuff for some reason. He could have had a series that lifted the Sharks above their competition but he didn't. Thornton didn't have that one playoff year either. I think with his size and such he probably should have tried driving to the net a bit more. There was something about the way he played that teams seemed to be able to key on in a 7 game series with more familiarity. It was weird that he never had a playoff year that you noticed. 2016 he had 21 points, but even then it was 4th on the Sharks. I can't blame them for losing to the Penguins, but they did have other years that they could have gotten to the final at least.

I thought Boyle and Burns (at different times) usually did alright in the postseason. Nothing earth shattering, although Burns was good in 2016, but I am not sure they were the most to blame. I think you have to give that to Thornton still. I can't even blame a carousel of coaches either. In those years you had Ron Wilson, Todd McClellan and Peter DeBoer. So it wasn't as if there wasn't some familiarity with the system and such. The Sharks were routinely in the 2nd round, sometimes the 3rd round, and never got over the hump until 2016 when even then they lost. Imagine Thornton taking over a series though. It is not as if he couldn't have done that. But for a player who was on good teams that underacheived over and over again he is definitely the most to blame because a player of his stature should have had that impact postseason, even if it was just one.

 

[tinyzombies]

They would routinely beat the best teams. Puck possession. But sometimes they didn’t generate enough off of that style. Maybe foot speed was an issue some years, goaltending others, bad bounces of course, then they got older and still went to the finals but the Penguins was a fast team that could score off the rush.

 

[coooldude]

There are a lot of good points in the thread, but I think it ultimately comes down to seeing those Sharks teams NOT in a vacuum.

You could argue "your best need to be your best", but I would amend that to, "your best need to be better than their best." As others have pointed out, here are the teams that the Sharks lost to, sometimes embarrassingly so, sometimes in heartbreakingly close ways:
- Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and an amazing supporting cast
- Getzlaf, Perry, Pronger, Niedermayer, Giguere
- Toews, Kane, Keith x3
- Kopitar, Quick, Doughty (arguably the Sharks should have been able to match up here, and did some years, but notably not the reverse sweep)
- Vancouver (should have been able to match up here, and did a few years)
- Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and an amazing 3rd line (which was the real series difference in 2016).
- Mackinnon, Makar, Landeskog, Rantanen (we actually beat them in 2019).

Yes, Thornton and Marleau didn't score PPG+ in the playoffs... but they still often played pretty well and pretty dominantly. The Sharks didn't always have a great supporting cast/depth in the 3rd D pair or 4th line, and yes, the goaltending sometimes wasn't good enough. But sometimes it was, and sometimes the depth was there.

Ultimately, Thornton and Marleau and Pavs and Couture were all very good, but they were never world-leading and often were up against players who were. That's probably factor #1. After that, we probably never had the true #1 D that you need (until Burns came into his own) and that's one reason why we ended up overpaying for Karlsson. After that, it was probably the depth. Last, it was probably the goaltending, only some of those years.

 

[Stephen]

Marleau/Thornton never had a dominant playoff. If your two best players are pedestrians in the playoffs, you're rarely going anywhere. I agree with others that goaltending/defense can make up for lack of scoring from the top guys, but they didn't have that either.

Having seen the Marleau Thornton imprint on this era of the Leafs, you can really see when you don’t have the character makeup to persevere in the playoffs in a touch matchup. San Jose was just always a little less than Detroit, Chicago, Anaheim, LA.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Thornton didn't "get it" until about 2012-13, goaltending and a wide open style were all big problems. That said, uncle Gary and the powers that be screwed them in 2016. What happens if they win game 2 as they should have?

The Sharks were extremely fortunate to not be swept in the 2016 SCF. Gary had nothing to do with it.

 

[coooldude]

The Sharks were extremely fortunate to not be swept in the 2016 SCF. Gary had nothing to do with it.

Extremely fortunate? The sharks were outplayed, particularly by the Pens 3rd line, but we also lost Hertl in game 2 and still won 2 games, outshot or not. Hard to say a 6 game series loss was extreme fortune away from a sweep.

 

[quietbruinfan]

The Sharks were extremely fortunate to not be swept in the 2016 SCF. Gary had nothing to do with it.

Considering the two goals the Sharks had taken away in game two and the fact that the network kept showing the cup with Crosby's name on it. I would say Uncle Gary had a lot to do with it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Considering the two goals the Sharks had taken away in game two and the fact that the network kept showing the cup with Crosby's name on it. I would say Uncle Gary had a lot to do with it.

Two goals taken away? I don't recall this at all

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

honestly they easily could have won a cup if they’d performed the “finishing move” correctly

anaheim got pronger for very little (lupul)

detroit was a weird case but you could argue that getting rafalski as a UFA was a pretty big addition

pittsburgh the first time and chicago had incredible young cores come into their own, and with chicago upgrading havlat to hossa as your overqualified third option up front counts

LA got jeff carter for peanuts (JJ), then later gaborik (practically nothing)

pittsburgh got kessel for junk

those years were san jose’s realistic window and their finishing move was dany heatley (for the affordable price of michalek and cheechoo’s corpse). but unfortunately he was dany heatley and in two runs to the conference finals he scored a combined five playoff goals.

edit: a keith tkachuk-like zero goals, three assists in those two third rounds