Why did the Avalanche fall off in 2008-2009?

[Jdes91]

Did their core get old? Did they try to come out of their rebuild prematurely in 2010?

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[forsbergavs32]

Colorado Avalanche 2008-09 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The team just wasn’t very good. Sakic, Hejduk, Foote and Smyth were declining, guys like Wolski, Svatos and Stewart were young and ended up quickly out of the NHL, goaltending consisted of Raycroft and Budaj, and apart from Liles, the D was bad.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Ya, goaltending was not good at all. The best players were declining, some quicker than others, and the young guys that the organization thought highly of at the time, turned out to be pretty disappointing players.


The perfect storm for a necessary rebuild essentially.

 

[shadow1]

A ton of reasons actually.

Andrew Brunette/Jose Theodore out, Darcy Tucker/Andrew Raycroft in. Brunette was a very solid 50+ point contributor and leader for the Avs for three seasons, while Theodore had a huge resurgence in the second half of 2008. The Avs low balled Brunette and he walked; Theodore they tried to retain, but he left via UFA. (IIRC, the Avs lost him over a trivial amount of money. He signed in Washington 4.5x2, while Colorado held firm at 4.0x2).

Meanwhile, the team decided to give a relatively lucrative contract to Tucker, while seeing if they could salvage Raycroft's career (with Peter Budaj as the starter). Important note: Toronto had just bought out both Tucker and Raycroft the same summer. Unsurprisingly, Tucker and Raycroft were brutal in an Avs sweater, especially Tucker.

Joel Quenneville out, Tony Granato in at HC. Not much explanation needed here; one of the greatest coaches of all time replaced by a very poor coach. That said, Avs fans largely hated Quenneville when he was here.

Joe Sakic decline/hernia/snow blower. Sakic missed most of the season with a hernia and a snow blower accident, which he stuck his hand in the machine to clear some snow away. But even if he had played the entire year, he clearly looked like he had lost a step in the limited showing we got (hey, the man was 40).

Peter Forsberg retirement. Forsberg only played nine (8-1-0) regular season games and seven (4-3) playoff games in 2007-2008, but the Avs were a different team with him in the line up. Despite Forsberg playing on one working foot, the Avs don't make the playoffs without him the year before.

The final nail in the coffin is Paul Stastny missed almost half of the season with an injury (I think a broken bone from blocking a shot). IIRC the Avs were still hanging around the familiar 8-10 seeding a good 25-30 games into the season before the wheels totally fell off.

Sorry for all the detail but that was one hellacious summer/off-season/season for the Avs. GM Francois Giguere was rightfully fired after the 08-09 season.

 

[Pokecheque]

The team had already taken some serious blows under the cap previously when they had to let Adam Foote and Peter Forsberg walk, then they got nailed badly again when Rob Blake left. They had a brief resurgence thanks to a couple free agent signings that surprisingly worked out, Joel Quenneville's coaching, and the heroics of the ageless Joe Sakic, but 2008 is when everything ran aground. Quenneville wisely saw the writing on the wall and left after '06-07. I don't have many fond memories of either of Tony Granato's stints as Colorado's head coach, but he could hardly be blamed for the

In short, the team just wasn't good enough to begin with, and then Joe Sakic only played 15 games in what would be his final season in the NHL. Avs fans fondly remember 2008 as the year of the infamous snowblower incident that broke three of his fingers while he was at home recovering from a back injury, and if that don't tell ya just what an abject disaster that season was, nothing will.

 

[henchman21]

The cap being implemented forced the start of the decline. A number of the Avs best and long term players couldn't fit under the cap, and they Avs simply had to let them walk. Forsberg and Foote were gone right away with nothing in return. Blake would be a year later. The Avs couldn't even really play the asset game because of the timing (not that Pierre would have). Losing 3 players of that caliber in a short amount of time sent the team on the decline. Follow that up with Konowalchuk having to call it quits and a dispute with Tangs, the Avs quickly lost out on depth. Especially as the drafting started getting worse and worse... and was getting hit by years of Pierre going for the home run all the time. Either through big trades, or going for the biggest home run picks he could get at the draft.

05-06 was good enough simply because of Sakic, Blake, Tangs and Hejduk. All were still high impact players and elevated a rather mediocre team.

06-07 was just a bad team held together by Sakic, Brunette, Stastny, and Hejduk with an epic end to the season by Budaj to get them close to the playoffs.

07-08 was a team that really shouldn't have advanced a round and wasn't a good team.

08-09 is where the wheels just (finally) fell off. Bad decisions all the way around just forced the organization into a rebuild.

 

[Pokecheque]

That said, Avs fans largely hated Quenneville when he was here.

What? No they didn't. Those scrappy Avs teams were some of the most fun we've ever watched. And IIRC their offensive totals under Q were among some of the best

I'm still mad at him for one very, very bad decision that I've touched upon before, but apart from that he was exemplary, especially given what he had to work with in Colorado.

 

[shadow1]

What? No they didn't. Those scrappy Avs teams were some of the most fun we've ever watched. And IIRC their offensive totals under Q were among some of the best

I'm still mad at him for one very, very bad decision that I've touched upon before, but apart from that he was exemplary, especially given what he had to work with in Colorado.

Unfortunately I don't know how to access posts from this website pre-2013 (when they did the big update), but I remember fans were calling for his head.

It came as no surprise that the Avs announced (a mere 8 days after being knocked out by Detroit) that they wouldn't be renewing Quenneville's contract, and were looking to return to being a "upbeat, high tempo, high energy".

You're right the Avs could mostly score at will under Quenneville, except 2008 they were more middle of the pack (practically the entire forward group was injured at one point, though).

I obviously am not speaking for your personally but the overall temperature on this forum was positivity when Quenneville wasn't renewed. Until Granato was announces as the coach, of course...

 

[S E P H]

Wasn't that with Giguere or am I getting confused with the dates? Whether if it was with him or not, a bad GM can set you back and destroy team potentials as he did to us. Likewise to Presidents, just because a really bad bloke was done with his term, doesn't mean damage was done three years back which impacts the bloke/women that is currently in charge (it's actually a pretty good strategy to use, especially if an opposing party member wins). I highly recommend all you lot to watch the UrinatingTree video about Mike Keenan - it's a bit long, but bloke oh bloke it's unbelievable what he did to certain teams when they gave him power as both GM and HC. His time with the Blues set that team back like a decade.

 

[Pokecheque]

Unfortunately I don't know how to access posts from this website pre-2013 (when they did the big update), but I remember fans were calling for his head.

It came as no surprise that the Avs announced (a mere 8 days after being knocked out by Detroit) that they wouldn't be renewing Quenneville's contract, and were looking to return to being a "upbeat, high tempo, high energy".

You're right the Avs could mostly score at will under Quenneville, except 2008 they were more middle of the pack (practically the entire forward group was injured at one point, though).

I obviously am not speaking for your personally but the overall temperature on this forum was positivity when Quenneville wasn't renewed. Until Granato was announces as the coach, of course...

Wow. That comes as a surprise. Not the "calls for his head" part. There will always be a vocal sect of any fanbase always calling to fire people no matter how good they are.

I'll admit I had my complaints about Q's tenure as Avs head coach. Still do. But he was one of the best, if not the best, coaches in franchise history. I sure as hell hope I wasn't one of the guys dancing with joy when he and the Avs mutually parted ways (I'm pretty confident in saying I wasn't though), but I've certainly posted stuff on here and the previous site with dumber stuff than that.

If indeed the franchise was talking about a return to "up-tempo" hockey by getting rid of Quenneville then that shows just how clueless they were at the time. Few coaches incorporate a better system for generating offense than Quenneville. I'd say the one consistent flaw he had toward that endeavor was that he never could get the power play to be consistent. But if people, and the organization were saying the offense would improve without him, they were fooling themselves. The Avs had some of their most productive seasons under Q, and that was with some really ragtag rosters that, at times, had no business being on the ice with some of the teams they actually beat.

 

[MarkT]

I just remember the horrific road trips that season. When Wojtek Woski is your #1 center, you've got problems.

In the first half of the season, it was clear they weren't a great team any more. But it was this road trip that was the beginning of the end in my opinion:

Colorado Avalanche at St. Louis Blues Box Score — February 7, 2009 | Hockey-Reference.com
Colorado Avalanche at Columbus Blue Jackets Box Score — February 10, 2009 | Hockey-Reference.com
Colorado Avalanche at Minnesota Wild Box Score — February 11, 2009 | Hockey-Reference.com

Just look at the Avs roster in those games.

They went on to lose 19 of the last 26 games of the season (with only two regulation wins). I feel like it took the team a decade to recover from that season.

 

[Hasbro]

I admit to wanting Q out. He didn't do his best work here and his line up management was atrocious.

Two words: Tyler Arnason

 

[Pokecheque]

I admit to wanting Q out. He didn't do his best work here and his line up management was atrocious.

Two words: Tyler Arnason

He did the best he could with what he had. You need to take a look at just how lackluster the rosters he was given really were. He should be commended for keeping Arnason engaged for as long as he did. Normally to keep his attention that long you have to be a stripper.

I didn't love how he managed the power play (but again, look what he was given), I still blame him for making a poor lineup decision that literally cost them the postseason, and I'm pretty sure him souring on Johnny Boychuk, a future top-four, Stanley Cup-winning defenseman, was what prompted the Avalanche to trade him for a career fourth liner. But as I've said before, every coach has their flaws, and Q, a three-time Stanley Cup winner who may actually retire as the winningest NHL coach of all time, is no exception.

 

[95snipes]

A ton of reasons actually.

Andrew Brunette/Jose Theodore out, Darcy Tucker/Andrew Raycroft in. Brunette was a very solid 50+ point contributor and leader for the Avs for three seasons, while Theodore had a huge resurgence in the second half of 2008. The Avs low balled Brunette and he walked; Theodore they tried to retain, but he left via UFA. (IIRC, the Avs lost him over a trivial amount of money. He signed in Washington 4.5x2, while Colorado held firm at 4.0x2).

Meanwhile, the team decided to give a relatively lucrative contract to Tucker, while seeing if they could salvage Raycroft's career (with Peter Budaj as the starter). Important note: Toronto had just bought out both Tucker and Raycroft the same summer. Unsurprisingly, Tucker and Raycroft were brutal in an Avs sweater, especially Tucker.

Joel Quenneville out, Tony Granato in at HC. Not much explanation needed here; one of the greatest coaches of all time replaced by a very poor coach. That said, Avs fans largely hated Quenneville when he was here.

Joe Sakic decline/hernia/snow blower. Sakic missed most of the season with a hernia and a snow blower accident, which he stuck his hand in the machine to clear some snow away. But even if he had played the entire year, he clearly looked like he had lost a step in the limited showing we got (hey, the man was 40).

Peter Forsberg retirement. Forsberg only played nine (8-1-0) regular season games and seven (4-3) playoff games in 2007-2008, but the Avs were a different team with him in the line up. Despite Forsberg playing on one working foot, the Avs don't make the playoffs without him the year before.

The final nail in the coffin is Paul Stastny missed almost half of the season with an injury (I think a broken bone from blocking a shot). IIRC the Avs were still hanging around the familiar 8-10 seeding a good 25-30 games into the season before the wheels totally fell off.

Sorry for all the detail but that was one hellacious summer/off-season/season for the Avs. GM Francois Giguere was rightfully fired after the 08-09 season.

Good post. Regards to the bolded, Francois Giguere was GM in name only just as Greg Sherman was GM in name only.

 

[Pokecheque]

Good post. Regards to the bolded, Francois Giguere was GM in name only just as Greg Sherman was GM in name only.

We joke about Giguere and Sherman as glorified bean-counters, but in all seriousness I don't think that's true. They may not have the same degree of autonomy that Sakic has now, but that doesn't mean they just minded the store and there was some "shadow GM" pulling the strings. Lacroix still probably weighed in from time to time but he was no longer in charge of day-to-day operations at that point. They probably had some restrictions on the power they held within the organization (Sherman's restrictions were largely financial) but I don't think they were mere puppets either.

This just feels like an easy out for both guys when in fact I think both of them should own their respective failures. The free agent signings (ultimately failed signings) of Ryan Smyth and Scott Hannan were Giguere's. The stipulation in the Adam Foote deal that nearly (according to Dater) saw Matt Duchene end up as a Columbus Blue Jacket was on Giguere. The litany of three-year deals for mediocre players was Sherman's idea (the idea carried on into the Roy/Sakic era and fared no better then either). And the ultimately failed free agent signing of P.A. Parenteau was on Sherman as well.

As for the botched negotiations with various players, it sounds like there may have been a Lacroix or two in the mix, but I won't go into that.

EDIT: I should add, for a supposed "capologist," as he was under Giguere, Sherman was REALLY lousy at salary cap management. The team capped out twice under his watch with really bad rosters.

 

[henchman21]

I think Sherman was a puppet GM for Lacroix... just not Pierre, but Eric.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think Sherman was a puppet GM for Lacroix... just not Pierre, but Eric.

That I can believe. But I still think he's the guy who drafted the contracts and managed the cap, and he sucked at that.

 

[Hasbro]

He did the best he could with what he had. You need to take a look at just how lackluster the rosters he was given really were. He should be commended for keeping Arnason engaged for as long as he did. Normally to keep his attention that long you have to be a stripper.

I didn't love how he managed the power play (but again, look what he was given), I still blame him for making a poor lineup decision that literally cost them the postseason, and I'm pretty sure him souring on Johnny Boychuk, a future top-four, Stanley Cup-winning defenseman, was what prompted the Avalanche to trade him for a career fourth liner. But as I've said before, every coach has their flaws, and Q, a three-time Stanley Cup winner who may actually retire as the winningest NHL coach of all time, is no exception.

And Ryan Smyth behind the net.

Brad May on the top line.

Brisebois on PKs.

Wyatt Smith even on the roster.

Starting goaltenders until they collapsed.

Fighting the team to the top of the division and going on a losing streak after every break.

Outright not caring about getting shootout points.

 

[MarkT]

And Ryan Smyth behind the net.

Brad May on the top line.

Brisebois on PKs.

Wyatt Smith even on the roster.

Starting goaltenders until they collapsed.

Fighting the team to the top of the division and going on a losing streak after every break.

Outright not caring about getting shootout points.

I think coach Q is really difficult to evaluate given the lens of history. We have clear evidence that he's not a bad coach, and may even be one of the best coaches of all time, given the results in Chicago. So if you view him through that lens, it's hard to say he deserved to be fired here. It's actually really easy to think back and imagine how things would have been different (in a good way) had we kept him.

But that lens ignores the very legitimate complaints we had at the time, like the ones you mention. I specifically remember be driven crazy by Smyth playing behind the net, for example. It also ignores the last few years in Chicago where they weren't winning cups or really even coming close.

I suspect the truth is that Q still had a lot of growing to do as a coach when he was here. He probably learned a lot and applied what he learned in Chicago. But the fact is in Chicago he had an absolutely stacked roster to work with, and when the roster started to decline, he wasn't able to keep them contenders. I'm not saying he did nothing or that he's a bad coach, but I'm also not saying he's the greatest coach of all time, or that he didn't deserve to be fired here.

 

[95snipes]

We joke about Giguere and Sherman as glorified bean-counters, but in all seriousness I don't think that's true. They may not have the same degree of autonomy that Sakic has now, but that doesn't mean they just minded the store and there was some "shadow GM" pulling the strings. Lacroix still probably weighed in from time to time but he was no longer in charge of day-to-day operations at that point. They probably had some restrictions on the power they held within the organization (Sherman's restrictions were largely financial) but I don't think they were mere puppets either.

This just feels like an easy out for both guys when in fact I think both of them should own their respective failures. The free agent signings (ultimately failed signings) of Ryan Smyth and Scott Hannan were Giguere's. The stipulation in the Adam Foote deal that nearly (according to Dater) saw Matt Duchene end up as a Columbus Blue Jacket was on Giguere. The litany of three-year deals for mediocre players was Sherman's idea (the idea carried on into the Roy/Sakic era and fared no better then either). And the ultimately failed free agent signing of P.A. Parenteau was on Sherman as well.

As for the botched negotiations with various players, it sounds like there may have been a Lacroix or two in the mix, but I won't go into that.

EDIT: I should add, for a supposed "capologist," as he was under Giguere, Sherman was REALLY lousy at salary cap management. The team capped out twice under his watch with really bad rosters.

I should not been as declarative in my statement as I have absolutely no proof. But given that Francois Giguere has an accounting background and now works as a Financial Planner.. And his replacement was of the same ilk.. I would question whether he was ever making hockey decisions to begin with. Never mind holding on to the glory days, when our time had clearly passed and having no regards for how to build a team in the cap era.

I think Sherman was a puppet GM for Lacroix... just not Pierre, but Eric.

I would bet a years salary that this is the case. If you look at the timeline of events (and what we know about the Avalanche organization), it would be the logical conclusion to come to.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It’s not the only reason but...

trading their 1st to bring Foote back

 

[shadow1]

And Ryan Smyth behind the net.

Brad May on the top line.

Brisebois on PKs.

Wyatt Smith even on the roster.

Starting goaltenders until they collapsed.

Fighting the team to the top of the division and going on a losing streak after every break.

Outright not caring about getting shootout points.

Ryan Smyth's time here was so disappointing. I know I'm echoing what you're saying but wow, his time with Colorado seems like a weird dream.

He was the top UFA that summer, the Avs looked like they were out of it when they signed Scott Hannan but then boom - 5 years, $6.25 per.

A measly 40 goals over two(ish) seasons later he was on his way to LA...

 

[Foppa2118]

A ton of reasons actually.

Andrew Brunette/Jose Theodore out, Darcy Tucker/Andrew Raycroft in. Brunette was a very solid 50+ point contributor and leader for the Avs for three seasons, while Theodore had a huge resurgence in the second half of 2008. The Avs low balled Brunette and he walked; Theodore they tried to retain, but he left via UFA. (IIRC, the Avs lost him over a trivial amount of money. He signed in Washington 4.5x2, while Colorado held firm at 4.0x2).

Meanwhile, the team decided to give a relatively lucrative contract to Tucker, while seeing if they could salvage Raycroft's career (with Peter Budaj as the starter). Important note: Toronto had just bought out both Tucker and Raycroft the same summer. Unsurprisingly, Tucker and Raycroft were brutal in an Avs sweater, especially Tucker.

Joel Quenneville out, Tony Granato in at HC. Not much explanation needed here; one of the greatest coaches of all time replaced by a very poor coach. That said, Avs fans largely hated Quenneville when he was here.

Joe Sakic decline/hernia/snow blower. Sakic missed most of the season with a hernia and a snow blower accident, which he stuck his hand in the machine to clear some snow away. But even if he had played the entire year, he clearly looked like he had lost a step in the limited showing we got (hey, the man was 40).

Peter Forsberg retirement. Forsberg only played nine (8-1-0) regular season games and seven (4-3) playoff games in 2007-2008, but the Avs were a different team with him in the line up. Despite Forsberg playing on one working foot, the Avs don't make the playoffs without him the year before.

The final nail in the coffin is Paul Stastny missed almost half of the season with an injury (I think a broken bone from blocking a shot). IIRC the Avs were still hanging around the familiar 8-10 seeding a good 25-30 games into the season before the wheels totally fell off.

Sorry for all the detail but that was one hellacious summer/off-season/season for the Avs. GM Francois Giguere was rightfully fired after the 08-09 season.

I was going to post pretty much all of this, before I saw you covered it. These are all the main reasons.

The primary reasons IMO were Granato, injuries, a lot less goals scored by the Avs go to guys, and subpar goaltending from two backups being asked to be starters.

They were basically using Tyler Arnason as their #1C for large portions of the season. Sakic only played 15 games and Stastny only played 45. Hejduk and Smyth ended up being their top scorers with 59 points. It was just a bad year all around.

 

[Foppa2118]

And Ryan Smyth behind the net.

Brad May on the top line.

Brisebois on PKs.

Wyatt Smith even on the roster.

Starting goaltenders until they collapsed.

Fighting the team to the top of the division and going on a losing streak after every break.

Outright not caring about getting shootout points.

Yeah, Q was not looked upon in the highest regard during that time. His insistence on that below the goal line strategy for pretty much the whole group, and his reluctance to trust young players, was an example of how Q grew as a coach in Chicago.

He hadn't learned to adjust for speed and skill in the new NHL yet, and wasn't nearly as trusting of young players as he was in Chicago. He just wasn't a good fit, and didn't seem to have a good relationship with Francois Giguerre and his crew. Both ended up being let go after the season.

It was never a hate fest for Q, but most Av fans realized he wasn't a great fit with the roster.

 

[Foppa2118]

It’s not the only reason but...

trading their 1st to bring Foote back

Losing that 1st hurt their depth in the future, but that 2008 19th overall pick wouldn't have played during 2008-09.

If they would have drafted Josi or Carlsson, it would have been a huge loss, but my guess is that Pracey would have drafted Eberle, or more likely Tyler Ennis who had a better season in the WHL than Eberle.