Speculation: Why aren't the Avs a "1st CLASS" organization anymore?

[henchman21]

eh are they not updating the Pepsi center right now? New seats right now and new HD scoreboard next season?

There are some new seats going in now. They are much better than the old ones... those were getting pretty nasty.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Well, 5 years ago our team truly sucked, no good prospects and so on. It takes time.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

If the Avs started winning cups again suddenly, they'd be a first class organization and FA destination in no time.

Watch what happens to Detroit when they stop winning. Look at how Chicago is a destination after literally decades of being a terrible organization. It's just winning.

We can debate why they aren't winning, but little **** like whether or not they gave Bruno a good-bye call or whatever is not what is in the minds of UFAs or O'Reilly.

No doubt...winning goes a long, long way. But here's the deal, a first class organization can rebuild and still make it fun for the fan base to stick around, attend games, watch on TV and well be a fan through the process. The AVs have never really displayed any interest in their fan base. It's like they take them for granted but then wonder what the **** just happened when the can is deserted when they ice a **** team. With better marketing, better price-points, more engaging in-house entertainment and a better (balanced view) job by Altitude covering the team they could still be close to filling the Can nightly and getting good numbers ratings wise.

I'll be honest, I don't live in Colorado (or even close for that matter, so I don't pretend like I can go to games) but I really don't consider myself a fair-weather fan. I've watched every single AVs game possible through my CI package for the duration of the last CBA but between the not so competitive product on the ice and the fact that every game presentation is exactly identical to the one before and the one that will come the day after tomorrow, it's been really difficult for me to even bother to program the CI package on my DVR this year. It's just the same crap...

 

[Drij]

No doubt...winning goes a long, long way. But here's the deal, a first class organization can rebuild and still make it fun for the fan base to stick around, attend games, watch on TV and well be a fan through the process. The AVs have never really displayed any interest in their fan base. It's like they take them for granted but then wonder what the **** just happened when the can is deserted when they ice a **** team. With better marketing, better price-points, more engaging in-house entertainment and a better (balanced view) job by Altitude covering the team they could still be close to filling the Can nightly and getting good numbers ratings wise.

I'll be honest, I don't live in Colorado (or even close for that matter, so I don't pretend like I can go to games) but I really don't consider myself a fair-weather fan. I've watched every single AVs game possible through my CI package for the duration of the last CBA but between the not so competitive product on the ice and the fact that every game presentation is exactly identical to the one before and the one that will come the day after tomorrow, it's been really difficult for me to even bother to program the CI package on my DVR this year. It's just the same crap...

funny that the Leafs do none of that stuff...

 

[Nihiliste]

Well, 5 years ago our team truly sucked, no good prospects and so on. It takes time.

I would argue we don't have a ton of great prospects today either. We had guys like Stewart/Shatty/Wolski/Galiardi/Cohen as prospects and young players at that time, do you really see Sgarbossa/Elliott/Barrie/Siemens as an improvement over that group? Obviously we've had guys join the big club young but you get what I'm saying. I'm very happy with our pool of goalies however.

Unfortunately due to bad injury luck (Mueller/Flash/Hishon) and poor decisions/asset management we've been set back a couple years. This is going to be a bad team for a couple more seasons before the rebuild is done.

But that's ok - St. Louis rebuilt for 6 years, LA for 9. Other teams with horrible management are perpetually rebuilding.

St. Louis has had an incredibly successful rebuild and I don't think its wise to expect the same types of results - they've drafted better and surrounded their young players with better veterans than we have, and even then they were god awful until they broke out last year largely due to Pietrangelo's emergence as an elite defenseman.

 

[Hasbro]

Lacroix needs to retire and a new president needs to be brought in who is able to secure support rather than apathy from kroenke and break up the cronyism in the franchise.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

funny that the Leafs do none of that stuff...

Not quite sure what your point is.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Lacroix needs to retire and a new president needs to be brought in who is able to secure support rather than apathy from kroenke and break up the cronyism in the franchise.

This.

 

[Nihiliste]

I'd actually like to discuss St. Louis as a comparable a little further because I find it quite interesting. First of all, remember how bad they were last season under Davis Payne to start the year, and the dramatic turn around under Hitchcock?

Next, out of interest, lets look at their depth at each position compared to ours (with O'reilly included).

Center:
Duchene, Stastny, O'reilly, Mitchell
Backes, Berglund, Steen, Nichol

Dutchy and O'reilly are still developing but I'd take our group over theirs comfortably.

Wing
Landeskog, Parenteau, Downie, Mcginn, Jones, Hejduk, Mcleod, Kobasew
Tarasenko, Macdonald, Oshie, Perron, Stewart, Schwartz, Sobotka, Langenbrunner

Now obviously their group is much better than ours, but in 3 years (considering they added two wingers in Tarasenko and Schwartz in 2013 our equivalent timeline would be 2016) I don't see it as out of the question that we could add/develop talent at a similar pace. Not certain, but also not impossible.

Defense:
Not worth discussing ours
Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Jackman, Polak, Russel, Cole

Now obviously the difference maker here is Pietrangelo in that I find it highly unlikely we will have a defenseman of that caliber in the next 10 years. But take him out and that core is not really special - deep, well rounded, but not incredible. As a result we will need a couple more talented guys to surround Johnson with, and as a result defense is where I have the most concerns of our organization being able to get their **** together but we'll see.

Goaltending:
Varlamov, Giguere
Halak, Elliot

Varly is just as good if not better than Halak. And we all know what Brian Elliot is when he's not sheltered by an incredible defensive system.

----

What was the point of my doing that comparison? Just to show that I'm not sure that, despite all our setbacks, we're that far off the pace of the most recent very successful rebuild. I think it's conceivable if we continue to draft well and make smart signings like PAP that we will be able to improve the depth on the wing as well as our D corps over the next 3 years.

I believe that there are 2 things that are going to make or break the direction of this rebuild in the next year or so and those are
1) The O'reilly situation - whether they get this guy locked up at a reasonable price or manage to move him for an equivalently valuable asset is key. If we can't get him signed and get a bad return on him that sets back a LONG way.
2) The Stastny situation - they need to make a decision on his future with the team, and either get him locked up long term at a more reasonable price or move him for an equivalenty valuable asset. Again, failure to properly manage this asset will set this rebuild back drastically.

Those two things, along with continued good drafting/development will go a long way to showing me whether or not this management can see this rebuild through to the end or if it will go the way of the Blue Jackets. I'm not as sold on our drafting as some.

 

[CalderKing21]

But Sacco was 3rd in voting for the Jack Adams trophy in 2010!?!

even the sun shines on a dog's ass some days.

but i really do agree that the nepotism needs to end and i hope in the future we hire because they're the best person for the job and not because they have previous ties to the Avs.

 

[CalderKing21]

Not quite sure what your point is.

crappy team, crappy product and similar to the Avs in many areas but they still draw like a mother and their fans still support them.

 

[Nihiliste]

crappy team, crappy product and similar to the Avs in many areas but they still draw like a mother and their fans still support them.

Eh can't compare Toronto and Denver. Or Toronto to any market other than Montreal/NYR

 

[avalanchuck]

funny that the Leafs do none of that stuff...

Not quite sure what your point is.

crappy team, crappy product and similar to the Avs in many areas but they still draw like a mother and their fans still support them.

True but you can't really compare them to the Leafs. Hockey is THE sport in Canada. Heck it'd be like saying the Raiders don't do that stuff. Crappy team etc but their fans still support them.

 

[Pirate Deadpool]

i really think a good majority of this perception is due to the cheapness shown by ownership since the first lockout. which a lot had to due with the cap being so low that it screwed us over.

the perception that ownership would rather spend on the nuggets than focus on the Avs is alarming.
if you go out and land 1-2 bigger type FA's and they enjoy their stay here the "not a first class organization" stigma goes away.
but when you're cheap, don't re-sign fan favorites and don't replace them with better ones that tends to frustate fans and cause this perception to happen.

i'm not saying the Avs are perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
but if you open up the check book and land a few guys then this doesn't spring up as often.

trying to do this the Avs way has tended to backfire recently though.
Giguere was horrible in his tenure and they refuse to really go outside of the organization to find guys who can help the FO. instead of completely revamping the franchise from top to bottom they contine to try and change the man in the suit and say it's different.

I couldn't say it any better.

 

[CalderKing21]

Eh can't compare Toronto and Denver. Or Toronto to any market other than Montreal/NYR

i know, but i assume that's what he was trying to say or imply in his post.
it's like trying to compare Jacksonville to NY in football, doesn't match up.

 

[Mant*]

This was a post in the ROR thread.. pretty much deserves to be reposted here.



Living outside of Denver it's tough for me to gauge how bad some of the marketing and stuff is, but the lack of any kind of lockout post apology, deals, etc was pretty embarrassing.

After the lockout you had teams doing PR and going out of their way to one up each other with deals, offers, etc.. a lot of teams offering 50% off at their store, reduced season ticket prices, sometimes all 3, the Avalanche did basically nothing from what I saw, and if they did they kept it really hush hush.

The management sort of had it easy from day one... look at a lot of the other teams that have moved or worse were expansion teams. They came and immediately won a cup that year, won it a few years later, and continued to be a top contender/favorite until probably 05. So the product sort of sold itself, we have not only one of the best teams in the NHL but probably the most exciting.

When you're rebuilding and go from that to being a bottom team and now at best a bubble team it takes more marketing, identity, and fan involvement to sell out and the Avs haven't done that, and it shows.. the Avs are the 4th worst in attendance percentage this season and were 6th worst last year..

Last year the Avs capacity % was below Florida, Tampa, Nashville, New Jersey, and Anaheim. In total attendance we were still behind a lot of those teams and below Carolina as well.. it's mind boggling for a team with the longest sellout streak in NHL history.

I agree with other posts in this thread, fire the marketing team and hire it from the ground up with Denver based guys, not some guy from Quebec who has about as much connection to Denver as the Devils do.

Buy one get one free tickets for the home opener and gave people with tickets to the Burgundy and White game free lower bowl tickets to a game of their choosing.

What more do you expect really?

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

I would argue we don't have a ton of great prospects today either. We had guys like Stewart/Shatty/Wolski/Galiardi/Cohen as prospects and young players at that time, do you really see Sgarbossa/Elliott/Barrie/Siemens as an improvement over that group? Obviously we've had guys join the big club young but you get what I'm saying. I'm very happy with our pool of goalies however.

Unfortunately due to bad injury luck (Mueller/Flash/Hishon) and poor decisions/asset management we've been set back a couple years. This is going to be a bad team for a couple more seasons before the rebuild is done.

But that's ok - St. Louis rebuilt for 6 years, LA for 9. Other teams with horrible management are perpetually rebuilding.

St. Louis has had an incredibly successful rebuild and I don't think its wise to expect the same types of results - they've drafted better and surrounded their young players with better veterans than we have, and even then they were god awful until they broke out last year largely due to Pietrangelo's emergence as an elite defenseman.

We have young nice core, Duchene, Johnson, O'Reilly etc. We don't need 10 bluechip prospects for this team. We are missing some keypieces, but this team is not that far from competing for playoff-spot and after that for Stanley..

 

[Mant*]

i really think a good majority of this perception is due to the cheapness shown by ownership since the first lockout. which a lot had to due with the cap being so low that it screwed us over.

the perception that ownership would rather spend on the nuggets than focus on the Avs is alarming.
if you go out and land 1-2 bigger type FA's and they enjoy their stay here the "not a first class organization" stigma goes away.
but when you're cheap, don't re-sign fan favorites and don't replace them with better ones that tends to frustate fans and cause this perception to happen.

i'm not saying the Avs are perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
but if you open up the check book and land a few guys then this doesn't spring up as often.

trying to do this the Avs way has tended to backfire recently though.
Giguere was horrible in his tenure and they refuse to really go outside of the organization to find guys who can help the FO. instead of completely revamping the franchise from top to bottom they contine to try and change the man in the suit and say it's different.

If they had done that, they would have been in the same position as they were in during the last lockout... having to give up some players because they could no longer pay them.

 

[CalderKing21]

If they had done that, they would have been in the same position as they were in during the last lockout... having to give up some players because they could no longer pay them.

we're near the cap floor, we'd be nowhere near the level of salary cap hell as last time.
i'm not talking about spending wildly like the pre cap Avs days.
i mean signing one of two guys to reasonable deals and also doing the bargain shopping like normal.
it's not that hard to get a couple of nice FA pickups to add to the talent that's young and developing.

 

[shadow1]

I'd actually like to discuss St. Louis as a comparable a little further because I find it quite interesting. First of all, remember how bad they were last season under Davis Payne to start the year, and the dramatic turn around under Hitchcock?

To me the Blues are deeper up front and younger on the back end. Subtle differences that aren't so subtle.

 

[Mant*]

we're near the cap floor, we'd be nowhere near the level of salary cap hell as last time.
i'm not talking about spending wildly like the pre cap Avs days.
i mean signing one of two guys to reasonable deals and also doing the bargain shopping like normal.
it's not that hard to get a couple of nice FA pickups to add to the talent that's young and developing.

That's because the Avs management said that they would not be spending until after this CBA was made. We're also not just one or two signings away from being a contender, so it would largely be wasted anyway. Plus, you've seen the Pejorative Slured contracts the big free agents have been getting, and those are guys who have a choice on where they go... why would they want to come to one of the worst teams in the conference?

This isn't the playstation where nobody has free will and you can trade Kobasew and get Crosby.

 

[Appleanche]

Buy one get one free tickets for the home opener and gave people with tickets to the Burgundy and White game free lower bowl tickets to a game of their choosing.

What more do you expect really?

At the least some kind of public apology or even statement from the owner? A lot more PR about any moves? The only place I could find that free ticket thing for Burgundy and White game was a post from the Avs board, even the buy one get one seems pretty hard to find.

There seems to be a lack of communication between the team and fans.. and on a team that's rebuilding you can't really afford that, IMO.

Edit - From watching Altitude's feed I could see they handed out some kind of statement signed by Landeskog, Sherman and I'm guessing Kroenke.. not really the same kind of statement made by a lot of other owners in the league... even not quite liked owners like the Bruin's Jacobs.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

**** this is so depressing.

Its disgusting that we have to brainstorm ways for our own hockey club to not be a pile of ****.


Oh well, I'll continue rooting for them, but only because I'm a mindless idiot who just really likes the team

 

[avalanchuck]

At the least some kind of public apology or even statement from the owner? A lot more PR about any moves? The only place I could find that free ticket thing for Burgundy and White game was a post from the Avs board, even the buy one get one seems pretty hard to find.

There seems to be a lack of communication between the team and fans.. and on a team that's rebuilding you can't really afford that, IMO.

Edit - From watching Altitude's feed I could see they handed out some kind of statement signed by Landeskog, Sherman and I'm guessing Kroenke.. not really the same kind of statement made by a lot of other owners in the league... even not quite liked owners like the Bruin's Jacobs.

C'mon isn't it enough the guys all come one the ice to salute the fans for showing up by raising their sticks?

 

[CalderKing21]

That's because the Avs management said that they would not be spending until after this CBA was made. We're also not just one or two signings away from being a contender, so it would largely be wasted anyway. Plus, you've seen the Pejorative Slured contracts the big free agents have been getting, and those are guys who have a choice on where they go... why would they want to come to one of the worst teams in the conference?

This isn't the playstation where nobody has free will and you can trade Kobasew and get Crosby.

the signings would augment the talent you have on the team already. which is what almost every team does to build themselves up into a contender.
FA's get Pejorative Slured contracts, almost every player in sports is overpaid.
but to not sign top tier FA's when you're hugging the cap floor under the guise of CBA issues isn't a reasonable excuse.
there are multiple reasons a player would choose a lower tier team, could be home, could be feel, could be money, could be smaller market, could be chance at helping bring a franchise up.