Why are the Golden Knights disliked by a majority of the NHL community?

[Super Cake]

Who cares why the Golden Knights are disliked by the NHL community?

 

[AaronDellForPrez]

And, I thought this was in the general forums, not the vegas forum, so if any moderators feel like deleting my answer, I understand.

 

[schmockeyknife]

Not going to bother to read through the thread, because the answer is pretty obvious and has probably been stated over and over again, but yes, it's because they had a ridiculous head start advantage given to them along with other numerous breaks by the league to help establish the market there, for money reasons.

They are an artificial frankenteam created out of league greed to expand and immediately succeed in expanding in a market notoriously weak in supporting professional sports teams.

Oh, and the gaudy lounge-acts they put on during pregame, in the spirit of las vegas over-the-top tackiness, along with the seemingly trump-designed gold-plated shiny helmets, just add to the overall ridiculousness of their brand.

[MOD] and... That's why.

all of this here. good post

 

[hangman005]

It's pretty simple really: the VGK were given favorable expansion draft rules that were revised right before they started operations by "coincidence". Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly knows little about hockey and the NHL specifically. It was easy for people to jump on the bandwagon because the expansion team went to a Cup final in its first year of existence. Thankfully they didn't win it, because that would have damaged the credibility of a sports league that has struggled to be more widely accepted in the U.S. thanks to a commissioner who would go to lengths many of us would find degrading to get more American dollars.

The real test of this team's fanbase will come when the team inevitably comes back down to earth and has to go through a rough patch for the first time since coming into the league. If the fans keep coming to VGK games through a bad period, then I'm perfectly willing to revise my opinion about the level of support they get. I think, however, that once the team starts to struggle, attendance will drop, and we will see another situation similar to the Coyotes except the VGK are more likely to move once the bottom drops out.

There is a reason that up until recently no major pro league in North America had granted Vegas a team. Sure, the Raiders are coming, but they've bounced around so many times now that it's become a joke. If Los Angeles can lose two NFL franchises (and we'll see what happens with the Rams and Chargers down the road), then a city like Vegas can certainly lose one, especially once attendance sags as the team struggles.

Expansion draft rules being revised before the next round of expansion after not expanding for over 15 years. When else where they going to do it... when they weren't looking at expanding?

 

[GoldenSeal]

I don’t dislike the Knights at all, I dislike how the NHL and specifically Bettman has handled things in regards to them.

 

[Pia8988]

LA, SJ, and WPG started the hate train because Vegas came in and stole their lunch money in the playoffs year one after their players were talking shit and it got thrown back in their faces.

As well instead of admitting the initial Vegas team was better than theirs , it was the refs fault

 

[Tripledeke333]

Even though they had some success right away, I understand why some people may be jealous of their accomplishments.

For me, I'm more impressed that they have yet to miss the playoffs.

The apology from the league as a result of the 5 minute major from the Sharks series is a big reason why. The refs and league have screwed teams way way worse in the playoffs over the years and Vegas seems to be the only one to get a public formal apology.

 

[Vegas07]

Fwiw in our first two game 7’s ever we had 5 minute majors called against us in both of them. And in that San Jose game, very early on we had to kill 2 power plays in a row.

In the Minnesota game 7, we finally weren’t called for a 5 minute major, but we still had 5 penalties called against us.

Yet people still say the refs are on our side in literally every series we play in.

 

[Vegas07]

Not sure I buy Vegas sports fans being less loyal than fans in other cities that have more professional teams. In major cities with several teams, if your hockey team sucks, in my opinion it’s easier to lose interest because fans can follow their basketball, football, or baseball team (or soccer or whatever sport they’re into.

The Knights are extra special to me because they are the first professional team in Vegas that plays at the top level. I don’t have that same feeling for the Raiders or A’s if they come to Vegas.

 

[Vegas07]

Would UNLV bball been winners if Chris Beard not left UNLV? Of course UNLV would not be able to keep a coach once the team started to be a winner but maybe it would be a place where up and coming coaches would like to come here and move on after taking UNLV deep into the tournament.

Beard got off to a really bad start because his roster was gutted and some players were unimpressed and left. I think he would have struggled a lot more than other places he has been.

Maybe he turns things around after a slow start though.

But who knows? He won a lot with some Texas Tech teams that were expected to do much worse than they did.

 

[nuck]

If there is any dislike its just sour grapes and not anything significant. Getting as far as they did the first year and since then proving it wasn't a desert mirage is salt in the wound for the millions of long suffering fans of other teams. Thats how a lot of people felt about the Oilers back in the day when they started life with Wayne Gretzky. Too easy, there should be more pain!

I'm old enough to vaguely remember the Washington Capitals expansion. Eight years of no playoffs and they allowed over 400 goals their first season. No real hockey fan wants to see that added to the league and only an asshole would wish that misery on another fan base. I hope the strong start means deep and permanent roots for the Knights. Nobody wants another struggle like in Phoenix.

 

[Ragnarok73]

Expansion draft rules being revised before the next round of expansion after not expanding for over 15 years. When else where they going to do it... when they weren't looking at expanding?

The correct question is: Why revise the expansion draft rules at all? Simple answer: Bettman wanted to ensure that the VGK would be competitive coming out of the gate, because fickle fans won't pay to see games played by a usual expansion team (re: all other expansion teams before Vegas). It is part of his obsession with making the NHL grow in the U.S. by putting another team in a city with absolutely no history of hockey support in the desert. Clearly, he didn't learn a goddamn thing from what happened with Arizona.

If it was only Seattle being given a team, that would have made more sense since that city already supports a hockey team (Thunderbirds) and have an arena that wasn't being used fully thanks to the departure of the Sonics over a decade ago. Expanding into yet another desert city and one that is built mainly on gambler tourism is a pretty stupid move, especially considering that no other major pro league had given them a team prior to this.

 

[Pia8988]

The correct question is: Why revise the expansion draft rules at all? Simple answer: Bettman wanted to ensure that the VGK would be competitive coming out of the gate, because fickle fans won't pay to see games played by a usual expansion team (re: all other expansion teams before Vegas). It is part of his obsession with making the NHL grow in the U.S. by putting another team in a city with absolutely no history of hockey support in the desert. Clearly, he didn't learn a goddamn thing from what happened with Arizona.

If it was only Seattle being given a team, that would have made more sense since that city already supports a hockey team (Thunderbirds) and have an arena that wasn't being used fully thanks to the departure of the Sonics over a decade ago. Expanding into yet another desert city and one that is built mainly on gambler tourism is a pretty stupid move, especially considering that no other major pro league had given them a team prior to this.

Vegas had hockey teams before and the arena was privately funded and built before the Knights were announced. But spew more ignorance. I'll add a little bit of reading since you clearly need the help.

History of Hockey in Las Vegas

Seattle Thunderbirds yearly attendance at hockeydb.com - Monumental support of hockey

Las Vegas Wranglers yearly attendance at hockeydb.com - Desert shit hole where hockey would fail


4 Players from the vaunted draft rules are on the team today. Three more from side deals from bad GMs. 7/20. Vegas were expected to do badly and when it didn't the excuses kept changing. Refs, gift roster. blah blah blah. All just a bunch of bullshit because people wanted it to fail and it hasn't.

Just a bunch of jealousy and resentment. In the end, who cares. Let other fan bases whine and cry.

 

[chaputonyou]

Here are my thoughts about the Vegas Golden Knights (and I'm not from Las Vegas nor a regular fan)

1. When you pay as much as Bill Foley did for the Knights, you should get a decent goaltender and some good forwards and defensemen.
2. Don't blame the Knights for getting players like Shea Theodore, MA Fleury, Smith, Marchessault, etc. Blame the dummy GM's who did 'side deals' to protect other players in their organization.
3. The Golden Knights have a smart President and GM, a smart coach and good pro scouting. It's one of the reasons the Knights are where they are today.
4. The Golden Knights have an owner who likes to go big all the time. Sometimes that 's good (see today and the past 4 seasons) but.....

5. Going 'big' all the time will catch up to you. Vegas relies on a lot of players who aren't getting younger - it's an older core. Yes, there are younger players getting inserted into the lineup, but that's probably why 'win now' makes sense. Stone, Pacioretty, Fleury, etc. are either old or getting older and slower. Pietrangelo is 31. Fleury is 36. Stone is 29. Pacioretty is 32. McNabb is 30 . Martinez is a UFA, and is 33. My point is: it's one thing to swing for the fences and aggressively trade for guys like Stone, Pacioretty or signing Pietrangelo, but in a flat cap era...and if those guys slow down further, that window is going to shrink and the benefits of expansion and taking advantage of gullible NHL GM's like Dale Tallon will fade away as well.
6. Bet some Vegas fans wish they held on to Nick Suzuki. Suzuki is only going to get better. Pacioretty is only getting older. He's 32 now and his contract ends in two years....with a $7M cap hit in a flat cap era.
7. I am a Canucks fan. We are stuck with players taking up cap space (Loui Eriksson is the poster child here) who have gotten old and can't play anymore. I am not saying Pietrangelo will turn out that way (he won't) but what happens when he is 37 with an $8.8 M cap hit in a flat cap era? How about when he is 35 with an $8.8 M cap hit? Better win a Cup, because if the result this year is the same as next year and Pietrangelo slows down....not a good scenario for Vegas.
8. Notice that Vegas seems to slow down as it goes deeper into the playoffs? Have a look at the age of the players I have listed above. They won't be getting younger or faster. And that Cap is not going to look good. Mark Stone will be 35 when his contract ends with a $9.5M cap hit. I get why he was acquired as Vegas needed his scoring (despite the fact he didn't score much in the post season when Vegas needed him). What happens when he is 32 or 33 years old and Vegas is stuck with that massive cap hit? How do they unload it? Will he be worth $9.5 M in 2 years from now? The Knights better win the Cup while he is still young. Same goes for Pietrangelo.
9. Wait you say, the young kids will come in to replace the expensive older guys right? The Athletic ranked Vegas #24 in organizational depth of young players. Did you see a lot of drafted players on the Knights roster during the playoffs? I saw Nicholas Hague...
10 Finally - you think this will last forever with the Knights being this amazing team? Everyone thought San Jose would be great and win the Cup...all they needed was Erik Karlsson. Read this from NBC Sports on the problems with the San Jose Sharks:

"The trio of Brent Burns, Erik Karlsson, and Marc-Edouard Vlasic carries a combined $26.5 million cap hit. To put things mildly, the Sharks aren’t getting their money’s worth in the present, and the future doesn’t look great.
Burns’ $8M AAV runs through 2024-25, and he’s already 36. Vlasic, 34, is on the books through 2025-26. Karlsson is 30, and his $11.5M albatross doesn’t expire until after 2026-27."

3-4 years ago, San Jose looked like they were on the brink. They went out and make the big deals to pick up Karlsson and traded for Evander Kane, who they later signed for $49M over seven years. Star-studded roster, right? Aging roster with bad goaltending.

So - here's what I am saying. I respect Vegas. I think it's great that they were smart to get good players and fool some dumb GMs. They went to the Finals! They then fired Gerard Gallant a year and a half later. They wanted to go 'big'. They traded Suzuki to get Pacioretty. They signed Lehner. They unloaded Nate Schmidt. They got Alex P and signed him long term, for big bucks at his age.

Ask San Jose how they are doing.

Chaputonyou

 

[Vegan Knight]

Here are my thoughts about the Vegas Golden Knights (and I'm not from Las Vegas nor a regular fan)

1. When you pay as much as Bill Foley did for the Knights, you should get a decent goaltender and some good forwards and defensemen.
2. Don't blame the Knights for getting players like Shea Theodore, MA Fleury, Smith, Marchessault, etc. Blame the dummy GM's who did 'side deals' to protect other players in their organization.
3. The Golden Knights have a smart President and GM, a smart coach and good pro scouting. It's one of the reasons the Knights are where they are today.
4. The Golden Knights have an owner who likes to go big all the time. Sometimes that 's good (see today and the past 4 seasons) but.....

5. Going 'big' all the time will catch up to you. Vegas relies on a lot of players who aren't getting younger - it's an older core. Yes, there are younger players getting inserted into the lineup, but that's probably why 'win now' makes sense. Stone, Pacioretty, Fleury, etc. are either old or getting older and slower. Pietrangelo is 31. Fleury is 36. Stone is 29. Pacioretty is 32. McNabb is 30 . Martinez is a UFA, and is 33. My point is: it's one thing to swing for the fences and aggressively trade for guys like Stone, Pacioretty or signing Pietrangelo, but in a flat cap era...and if those guys slow down further, that window is going to shrink and the benefits of expansion and taking advantage of gullible NHL GM's like Dale Tallon will fade away as well.
6. Bet some Vegas fans wish they held on to Nick Suzuki. Suzuki is only going to get better. Pacioretty is only getting older. He's 32 now and his contract ends in two years....with a $7M cap hit in a flat cap era.
7. I am a Canucks fan. We are stuck with players taking up cap space (Loui Eriksson is the poster child here) who have gotten old and can't play anymore. I am not saying Pietrangelo will turn out that way (he won't) but what happens when he is 37 with an $8.8 M cap hit in a flat cap era? How about when he is 35 with an $8.8 M cap hit? Better win a Cup, because if the result this year is the same as next year and Pietrangelo slows down....not a good scenario for Vegas.
8. Notice that Vegas seems to slow down as it goes deeper into the playoffs? Have a look at the age of the players I have listed above. They won't be getting younger or faster. And that Cap is not going to look good. Mark Stone will be 35 when his contract ends with a $9.5M cap hit. I get why he was acquired as Vegas needed his scoring (despite the fact he didn't score much in the post season when Vegas needed him). What happens when he is 32 or 33 years old and Vegas is stuck with that massive cap hit? How do they unload it? Will he be worth $9.5 M in 2 years from now? The Knights better win the Cup while he is still young. Same goes for Pietrangelo.
9. Wait you say, the young kids will come in to replace the expensive older guys right? The Athletic ranked Vegas #24 in organizational depth of young players. Did you see a lot of drafted players on the Knights roster during the playoffs? I saw Nicholas Hague...
10 Finally - you think this will last forever with the Knights being this amazing team? Everyone thought San Jose would be great and win the Cup...all they needed was Erik Karlsson. Read this from NBC Sports on the problems with the San Jose Sharks:

"The trio of Brent Burns, Erik Karlsson, and Marc-Edouard Vlasic carries a combined $26.5 million cap hit. To put things mildly, the Sharks aren’t getting their money’s worth in the present, and the future doesn’t look great.
Burns’ $8M AAV runs through 2024-25, and he’s already 36. Vlasic, 34, is on the books through 2025-26. Karlsson is 30, and his $11.5M albatross doesn’t expire until after 2026-27."

3-4 years ago, San Jose looked like they were on the brink. They went out and make the big deals to pick up Karlsson and traded for Evander Kane, who they later signed for $49M over seven years. Star-studded roster, right? Aging roster with bad goaltending.

So - here's what I am saying. I respect Vegas. I think it's great that they were smart to get good players and fool some dumb GMs. They went to the Finals! They then fired Gerard Gallant a year and a half later. They wanted to go 'big'. They traded Suzuki to get Pacioretty. They signed Lehner. They unloaded Nate Schmidt. They got Alex P and signed him long term, for big bucks at his age.

Ask San Jose how they are doing.

Chaputonyou

I think there's a lot of good points here but I'm less worried about the Stone and Petro contracts than I was before.

Shea Weber is only about a year younger than Petro will be at the end of his deal and he's had a great playoffs and is in the Final. I think veterans, especially on the blueline can still be useful in their older years when it comes to playoff hockey.

And Stone doesn't rely on speed, at all, and not really physicality so I think he could be a player whose game ages pretty gracefully.

And San Jose has had players who were good well into the ages our players would be. Marleau was a very useful player until like age 38, Pavelski was great in Dallas, and a Cup Final beating us on the way, at age 36. Joe Thornton was 36 before he dipped from all star level play, though he was still a good top sixer a few more seasons.

Stone and Petro may not be worth their contracts at the end but it might be closer to having an extra 6m tied up in them than you'd want than the whole cap hif. That's not good but this season we almost made the Final with 5 million sitting on the bench at any time. And the cap should start going up in three years and the contracts are for six, which would lessen some of the hurt.

I am not saying we will still be contending as I think LA and Anaheim, not to mention NYR and probably others will probably have too much talent coming good by then but I think we can still be decent.

I think our window is four years and the two of their deals a retool to come back when their two deals (and Karlsson) are up and give us at least 25 million in space to work with and probably more, if we'd look to bounce back. And free agents have no problem signing in Vegas and there's no state tax giving better odds of keeping cap hits more reasonable.

Besides, we shouldn't have significant RFA headaches for at least three years, and we can bridge at that point to end when the big contracts are up.

I'm not saying we definitely will but I think it's still in management's power, with some shrewd moves obviously, to be competitive four years and then maybe two year dip before being somewhat competitive again so I'm not worrying about that now.

 

[chaputonyou]

The post I made above acknowledged a number of good things about the Golden Knights, and one of them was that McPhee/Mcrimmon are smart guys and have excellent pro scouts. I can't see them letting this team age out to the point where it turns into what we have seen with Anaheim and LA with aging veterans like Getzlaf, Perry, Quick, etc. and the need to rebuild and have some bad seasons.

The issue I see is that one of the things I like about Vegas is that you have this guy named Bill Foley who wants to go big all the time. Teams with passionate owners usually do quite well.

My point is, with the pandemic, the cap isn't going up for at least 3 years, and it's going to have an impact on certain teams. Teams that have players on long-term 'rich' contracts are going to find themselves in trouble because they can't spend their way out of it, and can't move players out. Teams can buy them out, but in somc cases the contracts are structured to make that difficult. Trust me - Vancouver has a few of those.

I would love to have Mark Stone and Alex P playing for the Canucks. We do not have the same talent level as the Golden Knights. A lot of locals here are fed up and want the GM fired.

I am slightly more optimistic. We don't have the high-end veterans, but we have guys like Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser - all young, all draft picks all were Calder finalists or winners, we have guys like JT Miller and Bo Horvat and we have an awesome young goalie named Thatcher Demko. Outside of Miller, all of these players were drafted and developed by Vancouver and we have two other young guys, Nils Hoglander and Vasili Podkolzin who were both drafted high who are on entry-level deals while the other guys are either on bridge deals, etc. One of the things I learned watching Vancouver after they went to the Finals in 2011 was they got stale, and they had aging veterans with no-move clauses that handcuffed management to re-stock or re-build because of that.

I am not jealous of Vegas at all. In fact, when this pandemic ends and I can fly to Las Vegas, I'm going there and will watch a Golden Knights game. All I am saying, is that this team is not like Tampa, St. Louis or Washington - all recent Cup winners. Those guys had a lot of players drafted, developed and who won, lost, won , lost to FINALLY win the CUP. They were able to do it because their players were relatively young. What I am saying is that if Vegas wants to win the Cup, it needs to bring in younger players into the mix to balance out the veteran roster.

Chaput

 

[ClydeLee]

I dont see enough of the reasons I see Vegas hate and its having pos players like Ryan Reeves

Same reasons a lot of people for years haven't like Boston or the Caps even of they love some of their stars, because of the over the top agitation and dirty players on the roster.

 

[chaputonyou]

I think part of the 'hate' is jealousy. I remember when Vancouver had an NBA franchise (yes, the Memphis Grizzlies were originally the Vancouver Grizzlies). I remember the first season the Grizzlies played. The team went 15-67 in the first season and never got to draft first despite having the worst NBA record. Ultimately, fans stopped coming and the team moved to Memphis.

So many fans in other cities look at Vegas fans and say 'you haven't suffered enough' and I get that, but when you look at how the team was constructed, a lot of it was ingenuity and gaming the system a bit by McPhee and Mcrimmon, as well as taking advantage of some stupid GMs who wanted to protect players by giving up players who would become stars.

As I mentioned in my above posts, Vegas wants to consistently be a big player in the trade or free agent market to push to win the Stanley Cup, and I get that....just not sure if it's going to be enough if they don't focus on drafting and developing young talent to augment the roster and leverage lower priced talent on entry level deals.

 

[Vegas07]

The correct question is: Why revise the expansion draft rules at all? Simple answer: Bettman wanted to ensure that the VGK would be competitive coming out of the gate, because fickle fans won't pay to see games played by a usual expansion team (re: all other expansion teams before Vegas).

You think Bettman was some kind of genius that was smarter than everyone else?

 

[Vegas07]

I’m sure Bettman thought we would suck too. The next year some of our guys fell back down to Earth and we were in danger of missing the playoffs until the Mark Stone trade brought the team back to life. It made a difference when we had an actual star instead of another third liner.

 

[Vegas07]

Our ticket prices have gone up dramatically since the beginning and they keep selling. Surely that’s some evidence of support.
Sure, eventually one day the team will stink. I know I’ll appreciate it if the ticket prices are similar to what the Kings, Ducks and Coyotes are charging these days.

The Raiders charge even far more outrageous prices which are the most expensive in the league and they always struggle. The demand is still really high.

 

[Ragnarok73]

Our ticket prices have gone up dramatically since the beginning and they keep selling. Surely that’s some evidence of support.

Or it could mean that the VGK ownership are taking advantage of their team's success to increase their gate revenue. It's not hard when you have a team that has made the playoffs every year since joining the league. What remains to be seen if if that will come back to bite them in the ass when the team's records begin to sag (re: miss playoffs).

 

[Pia8988]

Yeah that was pretty funny. In addition to not knowing anything about the Wranglers, this is a somewhat different topic but I’ll bet he has no idea we added the Henderson Silver Knights. Probably doesn’t even know where Henderson is or that it’s so close to Vegas.

probably thinks only the strip is vegas.

 

[letsgoavs1921]

I might be able to help answer this as someone who had NOTHING against them before these playoffs started.

1 - DeBoer. Was disliked around the league starting a few years ago including by Vegas and their fans. Now I see why. Defends Reaves, complains about the refs

2 - Reaves

3 - Seems like for whatever reason hits by Vegas players that are to the head don't get punished with suspension (not even a hearing most of the time) while almost identical hits by other teams do

 

[hail2skins]

The current season is only half over and anything can still happen, but.....