why am i against a cap ?

[dawgbone]

The fact that they can't go elsewhwere until they are 31 is great for competitive balance.

But they can go elsewhere... arbitration, and other team signing players dictates they can.

True. Only about the best 50 or so players in the league will spread themselves among the biggest and best five or six markets. I imagine Edmonton will be able to compete for players in the bottom 75% of any free agent class. The top 25% of every free agent class would go elsewhere. If they ever did have the best player in the league again, they lose him as soon as he can leave. Right now it is age 31.

Tom

so you're telling me the top 50 players in the league are going to play on 5 teams?

Sorry man, hockey players are way too egomanical for that. Just like Basketball players and Football players, they want their time, and they want their stats, and their ice time...

And most of all, they want their money.

These guys can't maximize their revenue in a capped environment if they are all on the same team!

 

[oilers_guy_eddie]

The fact that they can't go elsewhwere until they are 31 is great for competitive balance.



True. Only about the best 50 or so players in the league will spread themselves among the biggest and best five or six markets. I imagine Edmonton will be able to compete for players in the bottom 75% of any free agent class. The top 25% of every free agent class would go elsewhere. If they ever did have the best player in the league again, they lose him as soon as he can leave. Right now it is age 31.

Tom

Not sold, Tom. You yourself have said that a premier player with a smart agent would find a way to orchestrate his way out of Edmonton much sooner anyway. What was it you said Crosby would do if the Oilers acquired his rights... demand a trade an play in Europe for a few years until he gets one, yes? Or just play for a few seasons, land an out of this world arbitration settlement, and wave goodbye.

As for the top 25% players in each free agent class winding up with the same 5 or 6 teams? How would that be different from the current situation? And under a spending-controlled CBA, how are those same 5 or 6 teams going to afford the top free agents each summer?

 

[PecaFan]

I have no idea why people think the NFL and NBA salaries are controlled that is a myth. Let’s compare the percentage increase in salaries since the 1997/1998 season and today,

NBA – 57%
NFL – 48%
MLB – 44%
NHL – 35%

So, since salary caps don't control salaries and they continue to rise, what you're saying is that the NHLPA is being totally unreasonable by refusing to agree to a cap.

We knew that already.

 

[helicecopter]

In the new system Iginla wouldn't be holding out, he would be long gone. The farther Bettman pushes this, the more likely you will see free agency begin at the end of a players rookie conctract. Another words, you draft a player spend money in the AHL and then say goodbye because he is now a free agent.

Unfortunately this is the way it would work and it sucks so much imo...

 

[SuperUnknown]

So, since salary caps don't control salaries and they continue to rise, what you're saying is that the NHLPA is being totally unreasonable by refusing to agree to a cap.

We knew that already.

Don't try to use logic... Next thing we know, Bob Goodenow will say that God told him to never accept a cap.

Like I said before, who cares what the players say, in the end, they're going to have to accept what the owners have to offer or they ain't going to play again.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

lol... true... I meant more from a sabres perspective. They had the $8mil goalie they couldn't afford (although it made them contenders), and the wings were able to grab him for not very much.

Sure they gave up equal salary, but if we are being realistic, the quality they gave up for one of the best goalies in the NHL at the time was a bit of a joke. Sure, they let Ozzie go, but really... I'm sure if Hasek was a $4 mil player, the sabres would have had far more options, and much better offers (and a much better return on the trade).

The problem wasn't finding a team to deal Hasek to, the problem was Hasek said i'll either go to St Louis or Detroit or else i'll retire. So it Hasek who hamstringed the sabres more than his salary. That also diminished the return the Sabs got for Dom.

 

[dawgbone]

The problem wasn't finding a team to deal Hasek to, the problem was Hasek said i'll either go to St Louis or Detroit or else i'll retire. So it Hasek who hamstringed the sabres more than his salary. That also diminished the return the Sabs got for Dom.

Which proceeds to further diminish the return...

Doug Weight did the same thing in Edmonton...

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Doug Weight did the same thing in Edmonton...

so ... ? and frocing a lockout and salary cap has what affect on changing the dynamic of a player wanting to leave a certain market ?

DR

 

[copperandblue]

so ... ? and frocing a lockout and salary cap has what affect on changing the dynamic of a player wanting to leave a certain market ?

DR

Well when the reason for leaving is an inflated contract, the answer seems pretty clear....atleast for most people.

 

[SENSible1*]

so ... ? and frocing a lockout and salary cap has what affect on changing the dynamic of a player wanting to leave a certain market ?

DR

I'm sure the PA is SO concerned about competitive balance and fan loyalty that they will attempt to negotiate a provision that allows extra cap room for home-grown talent, right?

It's not like the PA is only concerned about maximizing their salaries, right?

 

[dawgbone]

so ... ? and frocing a lockout and salary cap has what affect on changing the dynamic of a player wanting to leave a certain market ?

DR

He didn't want to leave a certain market... he just wanted a contract like what Roenick got.

And at the same time, he only wanted to play in certain cities when negotiations with the Oilers showed that he wasn't getting that deal with the Oilers.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

He didn't want to leave a certain market... he just wanted a contract like what Roenick got.

And at the same time, he only wanted to play in certain cities when negotiations with the Oilers showed that he wasn't getting that deal with the Oilers.

Lowe should have called his bluff IMO. Either find the best deal with a team not on his list or force him to sit out. Sure it would have been difficult but sometimes you have to take a stand even if you take a PR hit right away. The biggest problem was the owners rarely took a hard stance with the players in thing like this. The players knew they could do this and get away with it. Sometimes players act like little kids, if you keep on letting the kid do what they want they'll expect and demand more.

 

[oilers_guy_eddie]

Lowe should have called his bluff IMO. Either find the best deal with a team not on his list or force him to sit out. Sure it would have been difficult but sometimes you have to take a stand even if you take a PR hit right away. The biggest problem was the owners rarely took a hard stance with the players in thing like this. The players knew they could do this and get away with it. Sometimes players act like little kids, if you keep on letting the kid do what they want they'll expect and demand more.

Doug Weight had no intention of sitting out the 01-02 season. Had the Oilers not dealt him when they did, he'd have simply filed for arbitration, got a 1-year deal, played the 01-02 season in Edmonton, and become a UFA. See Bill Guerin's final season in Boston for reference.

 

[dawgbone]

Lowe should have called his bluff IMO. Either find the best deal with a team not on his list or force him to sit out. Sure it would have been difficult but sometimes you have to take a stand even if you take a PR hit right away. The biggest problem was the owners rarely took a hard stance with the players in thing like this. The players knew they could do this and get away with it. Sometimes players act like little kids, if you keep on letting the kid do what they want they'll expect and demand more.

Does Doug Weight's value in the trade market increase during a holdout?

The point is, the Oilers could have had a fantastic deal with a team not on his list, but if they want to sign Weight to a long term deal, Doug doesn't have to.

If Chicago was offering a fantastic package for Weight, but Weight didn't want to sign in Chicago, they aren't going to trade for him. The idea behind trading for a guy like that is so that you can sign him to a long term deal.

Doug Weight still gets his deal on the team he wants to play for, even if he sits out the whole year.

 

[dawgbone]

Doug Weight had no intention of sitting out the 01-02 season. Had the Oilers not dealt him when they did, he'd have simply filed for arbitration, got a 1-year deal, played the 01-02 season in Edmonton, and become a UFA. See Bill Guerin's final season in Boston for reference.

He wouldn't have done that... the Oilers would have gone for a 2 year settlement. His power was in a holdout, not arbitration.

Him being out of the lineup hurt the Oilers more than it hurt him.

 

[copperandblue]

Him being out of the lineup hurt the Oilers more than it hurt him.

This too me is the crux of the problem.

You can make good business decisions.

And you can make good hockey decisions.

For far too many teams, they can't make both.

 

[Emerald City Bruin]

Have you ever been to New Jersey? There might be 20 million people in the general area but they sure aren't within a reasonable driving distance of the Meadowlands. Do you know what New York rush hour is like? Or just New York traffic in general?

They're also competing with three other more established NHL teams in their area.

Just curious. What 3 teams, besides the Devils, are in the NJ area? Uniondale is farther away from NYC than E Rutherford is and no one in No. Jersey would even consider going to a Flyer game.

 

[SENSible1*]

This too me is the crux of the problem.

You can make good business decisions.

And you can make good hockey decisions.

For far too many teams, they can't make both.

Well said!

 

[I in the Eye]

This seems like a good thread to present an excellent book I just finished reading... 'Marketing Outrageously' by Jon Spoelstra... In Chapter 5 (starting on page 73 and ending on page 84 it presents a little story called 'Emergency in Edmonton'...

I wish that I could type out the whole thing for you guys, but I don't think the mods would like it...

To summarize:

- Sports marketing genius Jon Spoelstra got a call from Peter Pocklington of the Edmonton Oilers...

- Peter communicated that he was 'in trouble'... that he didn't want to move the Oilers, but he wasn't sure if they could survive in Edmonton... He wanted Jon to come to Edmonton to see if the Oilers still had a chance...

- The team was in terrible financial shape - since Gretzky left (7 years before), season tickets were down to 5,500 from their peak of 14,000 - etc... But what was surprising is that the first signs of financial trouble was after they one their first Stanley Cup (they won 5 cups in 7 years)... But as soon as they won their first one, they started selling fewer season tickets... THIS was a warning sign - that nobody saw... Everybody in the Oilers brass (including Sather) said that the reason for the decrease in season tickets was 'the fans felt the first Stanley Cup was enough'... After EACH YEAR the Oilers won another Cup, the number of season tickets went down!

- Jon didn't support the Oilers answer for the 'declining season ticket purchases despite their success' dilemma... Jon analyzed the problem (must read in this book for those who find this stuff interesting)...

- Jon's solution was to do two things: (1) for the Oilers to pay him a lot of money to turn the financial ship around; and (2) for Peter NOT to talk to the media for 6 months...

- Jon started with the ticket sales staff - increasing the number of staff members (from 2 to 15); injected enthusiasm by giving the sales staff something popular to sell (even though the current team wasn't good, they developed a ticket plan that was very popular)... Unlike most teams, many of the Oilers' season ticket holders were fans, not corporations... Most of the time, these fans used to share these tickets with other fans... When they couldn't find another 'season ticket partner', they stopped buying season tickets... The fans love hockey, but they can't afford the whole season ticket package... The new season ticket package solved this problem - the new season ticket package found the extra partners they needed to share the cost for season tickets... Now, every hockey fan in Edmonton could afford to go to the games... The ticket staff was overjoyed!; Improved training of the salespeople; Made a lot more sales calls on new leads...

- Season ticket sales went quickly and easily from 5,500 season tickets to 13,000... By increasing this much, the Oilers reached an attractive target - they now qualified for the NHL financial assistance package for Canadian teams (because of the difference in $ values between the Canadian and US dollar)...

So, the Oilers used to market themselves as 'if you win the fans will come'... But that ended up being wrong... The rule is really 'if you win, the fans may or may not come...

Although the Oilers had one of the greatest products in the history of the NHL (the 80's dynasty)... the number of season ticket renewals fell each time they won another cup!

A lot of that had to do with rising ticket prices, but if the Oilers had built and trained a sales staff the way that Jon Spoelstra did, over the years, the Oilers would have kept themselves very financially strong...

A team like the Oilers can adapt and be successful, dispite being a small market team with escalating salaries... It just takes a bit more creativity... I assume that ticket prices are at an all-time high... How about if the Oilers raised the prices for season tickets, but shared them amongst more 'season ticket holder partners' (i.e. 5-game packs that the salespeople could sell)?...

I'm all for changes in the CBA (anything but a hard cap!), but I do think that the Oilers basically put themselves in their financial position... Over the years, the Oilers didn't have the creativity and insight to adapt...

 

[YellHockey*]

Which proceeds to further diminish the return...

Doug Weight did the same thing in Edmonton...

I never knew that Weight threatened to retire.

 

[gary69]

I can think of several good reasons:
.

4) European players will gravitate to large cosmopolitan centres where there are Russian or Slovakian or Whatever communities. They would also probably prefer Eastern cities because it is much easier to get home at the Christmas or All star break.

Tom

Just to ebolarate on this, to what I've learned and heard, most Europeans find the east coast to be more to their liking, more European so to speak. They just believe that outside hockey they and their families have almost nothing in common with conservative midwest and south.

 

[dawgbone]

I in the Eye...

You won't have a single Oiler fan disagree with you that Pocklington didn't run the franchise properly... especially when it comes to integrating the team into the community.

However, with the EIG, and under the leadership of Cal Nichols, that has changed drastically over the past 7 years. Where before, the Pocklington/Sather group felt that if you build it they will come, Nichols and the new group felt you had to go out and get them.

They've completely sold this team to the city. The players are everywhere, they have one of the most interactive relationships between the fans, management and the players.

They've come up with countless innovative way to generate revenue (i.e. the HC). They make sure they are always in the public eye, and are far more public and forthcoming than the Pocklington era ever was. They've made it so being an Oiler fan is part of being from Edmonton.

And at this point, they're at almost 100% capacity every night. The Oilers management are probably the most creative and insightful group in the NHL. Granted, it wasn't always the case, but if you compare it to 10 years ago, it's night and day.

It went from a closed door team (like Chicago), to just about the most transparent organization in sports.

As for raising the prices for more mini-packs, they do have those already. I am not sure to what degree, or how they sell them or anything like that, but it is the major focus of their marketing campaign.

 

[YellHockey*]

Just curious. What 3 teams, besides the Devils, are in the NJ area? Uniondale is farther away from NYC than E Rutherford is and no one in No. Jersey would even consider going to a Flyer game.

Philly is less then 2 hours from East Rutherford.

 

[dawgbone]

I never knew that Weight threatened to retire.

He severely limited the potential trading partners for the Oilers (much like Hasek did for the Sabres)... which if you had bothered to use even a minute amount of intelligence, you would have seen that is what I was referring to.

Stop nit-picking, and start focusing on what's actually being said.

 

[YellHockey*]

He severely limited the potential trading partners for the Oilers (much like Hasek did for the Sabres)... which if you had bothered to use even a minute amount of intelligence, you would have seen that is what I was referring to.

But you said he did the same thing as Hasek did which was threaten to either retire or be traded to a select group of teams. At Hasek's age and previous comments about returning to Europe his threat of retirement is a lot more serious then a 30 year old Weight threatening not to play. What is he going to do if he was traded to New Jersey? Throw away the rest of his career, including the most lucrative years of his life?