Whose Hart-Winning Seasons Are Better: McDavid's Or Crosby's?

[nowhereman]

Unlike Sidney Crosby, Patrick Kane wasn't a defensive liability in 2013. Winning as a minus player is quite odd.

And yeah, I may have gone with Krejci - although the difference between him and Kane was far less than the difference between Couture and Crosby.

Okay, now you're just spouting bullshit at this point. Patrick Kane better than Crosby defensively? It's like you've never even watched a game from either player. Kane is one of the most one-dimensional, defensively irresponsible wingers in the game and Crosby has finished top 5-10 in Selke voting multiple times. This incredibly weird agenda you have in trying to prove that Crosby is poor defensively is getting pretty damn old.

Your hate is clouding your logic (or your glasses).

No. Objectively and statistically - remove the names and Crosby's Conn Smythe is probably the weakest of all time.

Kane had a higher PPG, a significantly higher GPG, and unlike Crosby he wasn't a defensive liability. The Hawks were winning with Kane on the ice. The Pens were losing with Crosby on the ice.

If you think Crosby's Conn Smythe is "objectively" the weakest of all time, that speaks more to your lack of historical hockey knowledge than it does Crosby's play. You may want to look back at Stevens (00), Crozier (56), Goring (81), Gainey (79), Lemieux (95), Hall (68) and especially Kane (13).

But it's nice to see Crosby is still living rent free in that head of yours. Anyway, back on topic...

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I'm the first one to jump on the "stop overrating Crosby defensively" wagon but Kane is not a name I'd ever put above him lol

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I'm the first one to jump on the "stop overrating Crosby defensively" wagon but Kane is not a name I'd ever put above him lol

Precisely. Crosby is no selke candidate like some people like to pretend but to cite defensive play as a argument for Kane over him is absurd

 

[Midnight Judges]

Okay, now you're just spouting bullshit at this point. Patrick Kane better than Crosby defensively? It's like you've never even watched a game from either player. Kane is one of the most one-dimensional, defensively irresponsible wingers in the game and Crosby has finished top 5-10 in Selke voting multiple times. This incredibly weird agenda you have in trying to prove that Crosby is poor defensively is getting pretty damn old.

I didn't say Kane was better defensively (although the difference is negligible), I said Kane wasn't a defensive liability. When Kane was on the ice, the Blackhawks were outscoring their opponents. This is also true for the other weak Smythes you listed. Not so for Crosby - who outscored the Pens 3C by a whopping 1 point despite Bonino taking on far more difficult minutes and penalty killing duties and playing very little on the power play.

Crosby has an entire country's media willing to lie or exaggerate for him - and that is the ONLY reason Sid has ever received any Selke votes. One of the 2016 Conn Smythe voters published an article on TSN claiming that Sid deserved the award over Kessel because Sid kills penalties. Sid PK'd for all of 10 seconds per game in the 2016 postseason. -That's hopping over the boards for 3-5 seconds at the end of a PK after the guys who did the real work got a clear.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Well, no. I mean the numbers you bring up - that's fine, but when in history has a forward won a conn smythe in a losing cause?

One time - Reggie Leach in 1976.

 

[Gurglesons]

I didn't say Kane was better defensively (although the difference is negligible), I said Kane wasn't a defensive liability. When Kane was on the ice, the Blackhawks were outscoring their opponents. This is also true for the other weak Smythes you listed. Not so for Crosby - who outscored the Pens 3C by a whopping 1 point despite Bonino taking on far more difficult minutes and penalty killing duties and playing very little on the power play.

Crosby has an entire country's media willing to lie or exaggerate for him - and that is the ONLY reason Sid has ever received any Selke votes. One of the 2016 Conn Smythe voters published an article on TSN claiming that Sid deserved the award over Kessel because Sid kills penalties. Sid PK'd for all of 10 seconds per game in the 2016 postseason. -That's hopping over the boards for 3-5 seconds at the end of a PK after the guys who did the real work got a clear.

So Williams - Kuznetsov - MoJo was the Caps best line in 15-16?

 

[nowhereman]

I didn't say Kane was better defensively (although the difference is negligible), I said Kane wasn't a defensive liability. When Kane was on the ice, the Blackhawks were outscoring their opponents. This is also true for the other weak Smythes you listed. Not so for Crosby - who outscored the Pens 3C by a whopping 1 point despite Bonino taking on far more difficult minutes and penalty killing duties and playing very little on the power play.

Crosby has an entire country's media willing to lie or exaggerate for him - and that is the ONLY reason Sid has ever received any Selke votes. One of the 2016 Conn Smythe voters published an article on TSN claiming that Sid deserved the award over Kessel because Sid kills penalties. Sid PK'd for all of 10 seconds per game in the 2016 postseason. -That's hopping over the boards for 3-5 seconds at the end of a PK after the guys who did the real work got a clear.

This is what it's come to, MJ? Your hate for Crosby has blinded you so much that you've actually resorted to using +/- to try and claim that he's a defensive liability compared to one of the least defensively responsible players in the game? Or rewriting history to try and claim that Nick Bonino played "far more difficult minutes" in the 2016 run, even though it is widely acknowledged that the success of the HBK line was largely due to them dunking on softer match-ups? That's where we're at?

 

[Regal]

This is what it's come to, MJ? Your hate for Crosby has blinded you so much that you've actually resorted to using +/- to try and claim that he's a defensive liability compared to one of the least defensively responsible players in the game? Or rewriting history to try and claim that Nick Bonino played "far more difficult minutes" in the 2016 run? That's where we're at?

He used to make some good points against Crosby but lately it's throwing nonsensical ideas based on a gross misunderstanding of what statistics are relevant in assessing individual defensive play.

 

[Varan]

He used to make some good points against Crosby but lately it's throwing nonsensical ideas based on a gross misunderstanding of what statistics are relevant in assessing individual defensive play.

Defensive play is harder to assess statistically though. Not defending MJ at all, but it’s not as cut and dry as offense.

One might have to resort to different, distinct, and less frequently-used evaluations (like MJ)

 

[Regal]

Defensive play is harder to assess statistically though. Not defending MJ at all, but it’s not as cut and dry as offense.

It's not, no, but just looking at goals against or plus minus is a poor way of doing it. And especially looking at goals against when on the PP or the the empty net, which MJ has also done to discredit Crosby. Crosby dominated the shot, chance and expected goals share when on the ice 5v5, but was let down by awful .880 goaltending behind him. He didn't score enough 5v5 either and that's on him, but he didn't get outscored 5v5 because he was a liability. I do think Crosby's Smythe was one of the worst, because his 5v5 production was so poor, but adding liability to it is ridiculous.

Kane interestingly did have quite good 5v5 numbers both in terms of his own scoring and controlling the play when he was on the ice. His totals are weak because the PP was awful that playoffs.

 

[Varan]

It's not, no, but just looking at goals against or plus minus is a poor way of doing it. And especially looking at goals against when on the PP or the the empty net, which MJ has also done to discredit Crosby. Crosby dominated the shot, chance and expected goals share when on the ice 5v5, but was let down by awful .880 goaltending behind him. He didn't score enough 5v5 either and that's on him, but he didn't get outscored 5v5 because he was a liability. I do think Crosby's Smythe was one of the worst, because his 5v5 production was so poor, but adding liability to it is ridiculous.

Kane interestingly did have quite good 5v5 numbers both in terms of his own scoring and controlling the play when he was on the ice. His totals are weak because the PP was awful that playoffs.

I agree with your main points and I also believe that it was a rough year for CS voting because Crosby’s production wasn’t the typical “Sidney Crosby scoring at insane rates” during the playoffs. It was hard to gauge him. It’s also why the CS voting was so close between him and Kessel.

I believe the MAIN issue people have is that the narrative shifted to “2-way play” and things of that nature. So people took an issue with how much of an impact he actually had, and the fact that it was enough to win the Smythe outside of lower production.

People couldn’t really quantify his on-ice impact on the defensive end. Crosby wasn’t deployed or known as a prototypical “2-way player” like a Bergeron or Toews up until that point of his career. That made assessing his role even harder because it finally came, but at the cost of his offense.

It was the turn of his career in my opinion.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Well, no. I mean the numbers you bring up - that's fine, but when in history has a forward won a conn smythe in a losing cause? That's never happened, or if it has I don't remember.

For the record - it happened once, in 1976. Reggie Leach won the Conn Smythe. He won because:

1. He set the all-time record for goals with 19 (something that, 45 years later, still hasn't been topped by Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Bossy, etc - even though the playoffs were only three rounds back then. Of course, nobody knew at the time that the record would stand for 45+ years).
2. He decisively led the playoffs in scoring (24 pts vs 19)
3. There was probably vote-splitting on the winning Habs (Lafleur, Dryden and Savard all probably got serious consideration)
4. Leach played well in the SC finals despite his team losing

All that being said, I agree with @Midnight Judges - Crosby's 2016 Smythe was one of the weakest in the history of the trophy.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree with your main points and I also believe that it was a rough year for CS voting because Crosby’s production wasn’t the typical “Sidney Crosby scoring at insane rates” during the playoffs. It was hard to gauge him. It’s also why the CS voting was so close between him and Kessel.

I believe the MAIN issue people have is that the narrative shifted to “2-way play” and things of that nature. So people took an issue with how much of an impact he actually had, and the fact that it was enough to win the Smythe outside of lower production.

People couldn’t really quantify his on-ice impact on the defensive end. Crosby wasn’t deployed or known as a prototypical “2-way player” like a Bergeron or Toews up until that point of his career. That made assessing his role even harder because it finally came, but at the cost of his offense.

It was the turn of his career in my opinion.

I don’t remember the narrative at the time shifting to two way play. The narrative was Crosby was the captain and the # 1C. Everyone in the room knew who their most consistent player was and he was absolutely dominate in the wins that lead to the ECF come back and SCF win. While Kessel was on L3 and Letang had a rough ECF.

I think people are just extrapolating the argument that Crosby was a better two way player than his comparables during his career in Malkin, Kane, and Ovechkin.

The two way play argument came into effect in 18-19. Once again I ask why are we discussing Conn Smythes in a thread about Harts.

 

[IPS]

just like Crosbys Conn Smythe winning effort scoring an incredible 19 points in 24 games in his prime.

Lol you really wanna go there?

How did Crosby's first few playoff performances stack up against McDavid's again?

 

[Varan]

I don’t remember the narrative at the time shifting to two way play. The narrative was Crosby was the captain and the # 1C. Everyone in the room knew who their most consistent player was and he was absolutely dominate in the wins that lead to the ECF come back and SCF win. While Kessel was on L3 and Letang had a rough ECF.

I think people are just extrapolating the argument that Crosby was a better two way player than his comparables during his career in Malkin, Kane, and Ovechkin.

The two way play argument came into effect in 18-19. Once again I ask why are we discussing Conn Smythes in a thread about Harts.

I don’t recall anything about him being the captain or 1C because it didn’t need to be explained. The issues people mainly had was his lack of production.

I don’t think anyone has an issue with saying Crosby was a better 2-way player than OV/Malkin/Kane throughout their careers. It’s true.

For me I felt he started to round out his game after that 2016 season.

MJ and @nowhereman were discussing the 2016 CS and MJ was attacking Crosby’s defensive game.