Who's the best goalscoring defenseman ever outside of Bobby Orr?

[seventieslord]

Is that compared to other the league or just other defensemen?

It's just HR's adjusted goals, nothing scientific about it.

It may not give enough credit to D-men from some eras where defensemen didn't score many goals, but also, due to the small samples involved, I'd be pretty cautious about looking at a defenseman from, say, 1950, who had 9 goals when no other had more than 5, and treating that like having 41 goals in 2021.

 

[Dreakmur]

It's just HR's adjusted goals, nothing scientific about it.

It may not give enough credit to D-men from some eras where defensemen didn't score many goals, but also, due to the small samples involved, I'd be pretty cautious about looking at a defenseman from, say, 1950, who had 9 goals when no other had more than 5, and treating that like having 41 goals in 2021.

If they outscores all other defensemen by that much, it should be considered a dominant season.

 

[seventieslord]

If they outscores all other defensemen by that much, it should be considered a dominant season.

But it's not by "that much", it's by four.

Yes, I completely understand that percentage-wise, it's the same as scoring 90 when no one else has more than 50, and if it was 45 vs. 25 I wouldn't say anything, but once those numbers get low enough, the idea of crediting a player for percentage-based dominance starts to really break down. Our degree of confidence that this hypothetical player was really by far the most dominant goal scoring defenseman that season drops significantly.

In these cases it would be much more appropriate to step back and take a wider-angle look at it. Was this performance repeatable? Did he demonstrate a similar level of dominance over a period of three or more seasons?

And I'm not saying this has to be done with every single statistic, but when we're talking about such low-quantity occurrences, such as shutouts, shorthanded goals, pre-1940 defenseman playoff points, O6-era defenseman goals, pre-merger playoff points, we should pump the brakes on what conclusions we jump to just because 8 is greater than 6 by the same relative degree that 80 is greater than 60.

 

[Finster8]

Ian Turnbull scored 5 goals with 5 shots in one game, obviously a record that won't be beat soon. Although Turnbull was good offensively, their are better.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sergei Fedorov.

 

[hypereconomist]

I'm partial to MacInnis, but he arguably had as much help as Coffey did.


Weber was a really effective scorer that almost led the Preds in goals once or twice during his prime. His goal scoring will probably be more highly regarded once he retires and we start looking back at him through the rose-colored lens of history.

 

[Vector]

I'm partial to MacInnis, but he arguably had as much help as Coffey did.


Weber was a really effective scorer that almost led the Preds in goals once or twice during his prime. His goal scoring will probably be more highly regarded once he retires and we start looking back at him through the rose-colored lens of history.

He finished second (23) to Craig Smith (24) in the 2013-14 season. Both played 79 games. He also finished second (23) to Jason Arnott (33) 2008-09 but there's such a big gap and Arnott played 65 games to Weber's 81.

 

[The Panther]

I'm partial to MacInnis, but he arguably had as much help as Coffey did.

Not sure about that, because when MacInnis went to St. Louis -- considering Dead Puck Era stats -- he was still putting up huge numbers. His 61 points in 1996 is more-or-less at Calgary levels of scoring, 66 points in 1999 is crazy, 54 points in 59 games in 2001 is insane (aged 37), and 68 points in 2003 (aged 39) is nuts. Some decent teams there, but not offensively great, and those Blues clubs were scoring 100 fewer goals per season than the Flames' teams he'd starred on.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Not sure about that, because when MacInnis went to St. Louis -- considering Dead Puck Era stats -- he was still putting up huge numbers. His 61 points in 1996 is more-or-less at Calgary levels of scoring, 66 points in 1999 is crazy, 54 points in 59 games in 2001 is insane (aged 37), and 68 points in 2003 (aged 39) is nuts. Some decent teams there, but not offensively great, and those Blues clubs were scoring 100 fewer goals per season than the Flames' teams he'd starred on.

Yeah. Why is his fanfare so comparatively miniscule when he has all the numbers and an excellent resume? 7x All Star and six times top 3 in Norris voting and crazy longevity coupled with really good playoffs as well.

Calgary and Blues don't get the most media attention I guess but still. It is weird. Was he shy with media in general?

 

[FerrisRox]

Coffey once scored 30 goals in half a season. 'Nuff said.

When did Coffey score thirty goals in half a season?

 

[The Panther]

When did Coffey score thirty goals in half a season?

In 1985-86. He'd scored 40 goals in 1983-84, and 37 (plus 12 in the playoffs!) in 1984-85. In the first half of 1985-86, he had 18 goals, and then he scored 30 in the final 40 games, which is crazy! In fact, he scored 33 goals in the final 44 games. Both are more than Gretzky scored over the same period.

 

[hypereconomist]

Not sure about that, because when MacInnis went to St. Louis -- considering Dead Puck Era stats -- he was still putting up huge numbers. His 61 points in 1996 is more-or-less at Calgary levels of scoring, 66 points in 1999 is crazy, 54 points in 59 games in 2001 is insane (aged 37), and 68 points in 2003 (aged 39) is nuts. Some decent teams there, but not offensively great, and those Blues clubs were scoring 100 fewer goals per season than the Flames' teams he'd starred on.

The Blues were consistently in the top quartile when it comes to offense:

94-95: 4th in goals for with Hull, MacInnis, Shanahan, Duchesne, and Tikkanen leading the offense
97-98: 1st in goals for with Hull, MacInnis, Turgeon, Duchesne, and Demitra leading the offense
98-99: 7th in goals for with MacInnis, Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
99-00: 3rd in goals for with MacInnis,Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
00-01: 8th in goals for with MacInnis, Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
02-03: 4th in goals for with MacInnis, Demitra, Tkachuk, Stillman, and Weight, and leading the offense

MacInnis was a great player and a primary reason why those Blues teams were good, but he also always had a solid supporting cast, especially on the powerplay where he was putting up 52-60% of his points (consistent with his PP points percentage in Calgary)

 

[YippieKaey]

I think Phil Housley should be mentioned here no?

 

[The Panther]

The Blues were consistently in the top quartile when it comes to offense:

94-95: 4th in goals for with Hull, MacInnis, Shanahan, Duchesne, and Tikkanen leading the offense
97-98: 1st in goals for with Hull, MacInnis, Turgeon, Duchesne, and Demitra leading the offense
98-99: 7th in goals for with MacInnis, Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
99-00: 3rd in goals for with MacInnis,Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
00-01: 8th in goals for with MacInnis, Turgeon, Demitra, and Pronger leading the offense
02-03: 4th in goals for with MacInnis, Demitra, Tkachuk, Stillman, and Weight, and leading the offense

MacInnis was a great player and a primary reason why those Blues teams were good, but he also always had a solid supporting cast, especially on the powerplay where he was putting up 52-60% of his points (consistent with his PP points percentage in Calgary)

Sure, but in the specific seasons I mention -- 1996, 1999, and 2001, which I identify as MacInnis's top offensive seasons there -- the Blues were (respectively): 24th (i.e., 3rd worst), 7th, and 8th in offense.

And in the season they were 7th, they were tied for the fewest PP opportunities in the NHL, yet MacInnis had a big season. Their offense was maybe a bit more solid by 2000-01, but by now MacInnis is getting ancient, yet he outscored Chris Pronger and all but two Blues.

In the seasons they were higher-ranking in offense, MacInnis actually had less impressive statistical seasons, so it would appear his offense was not dependent on being on a top-scoring team.

 

[Bryce Newman]

If you're talking goals that's one thing but if you're talking best offensive Defenseman I'd go with Brian Leetch on this. Lead the league in points per game for the entire decade of the 1990s and was 2nd in points per game in the playoffs for the decade.

Coffey was an offensive machine but he played on some really stacked teams while Leetch played on a lot of terrible Ranger teams. Leetch also lead the league in scoring in 2001 playing on an awful Rangers team that didn't make the playoffs. If we're talking pure offensive goal scoring I guess it's Coffey but he was horrible defensively.

 

[James Walker]

I'm not going to rank them, or even say these guys are the best.....but here are 5 star defensemen from the '70s, '80s and '90s who were good goal-scorers (in chronological order):

Al MacInnis - MacInnis grew up playing RW, so that experience never hurts a scoring defenseman. Obviously one of the very best and most effective slapshots in the history of hockey. Extremely hard and accurate. A smart player with good instincts.

This is a smart post...MacInnis could barely skate backwards until his late teens. Not a criticism, just an observation on how hard he must have had to work to make the NHL.

 

[Perennial]

I remember Kevin Hatcher potted 34 goals one season...

 

[Professor What]

Leetch also lead the league in scoring in 2001 playing on an awful Rangers team that didn't make the playoffs.

Did you mean led defensemen in scoring?

 

[Spirit of 67]

(I'll just take for granted that we all agree on Orr being the best)

Here are the raw numbers since the expansion in 1967 to date:

NHL Stats

Who'd you advocate for?

Paul Coffey.

Easily.

 

[Spirit of 67]

You'd have to say Coffey based purely on the stats. The thing with Coffey is that he skated so effortlessly and did things so smoothly that you figure somewhere that has to be a defenseman who was more skilled at putting the puck in the net. I am not sure who that is. But let's put it this way, if this is a shootout and you need a goal who else do you put in over Coffey?

Marek Malik.

 

[The Panther]

If you're talking goals that's one thing but if you're talking best offensive Defenseman I'd go with Brian Leetch on this. Lead the league in points per game for the entire decade of the 1990s and was 2nd in points per game in the playoffs for the decade.

I dunno. I mean, Leetch finished top-5 in Norris voting 7 times and in 6 of those seasons the Rangers were anywhere from "competitive" to "1st overall" (twice). They weren't terrible in any of those first 6 seasons he was a top-5 D.

Only in 2001, as you point out, did he get a lot of Norris votes while the team kind of sucked. But offensively, they still had Nedved, Fleury, Messier (old), Kamensky, and Graves to help him, so it wasn't like he was on an island.

It is true, though, that Paul Coffey played with a lot of skilled players all throughout his prime years.

 

[The Panther]

Ray Bourque had nine 20-goals seasons in the NHL. That's crazy.

What's even crazier is that in four other seasons, he scored 19. So, he was one goal away, four times, from having thirteen 20-goal seasons.

He had fifteen seasons of 18 or more goals.

So, what D have the most 20-goal seasons?
Potvin: 9
Bourque: 9
Coffey: 8
Orr: 7
MacInnis: 7
Leetch: 5
Park: 3
Wilson: 3
Burns: 3
Blake: 2
Karlsson: 2
Chelios: 1
Lidstrom: 1

18-goal seasons?
Bourque: 15
Potvin: 10
Coffey: 8
MacInnis: 8
Orr: 7
Leetch: 5
Park: 4
Wilson: 4
Blake: 4
Green: 3
Karlsson: 3
Burns: 3
Robinson: 2
Lidstrom: 2

(Let me know if I missed anyone.)

So, it's one of those things -- Coffey and Orr were clearly unique offensive talents from the back-end, and could skate to score a lot in high volumes. But Orr had the short career and Coffey the defensive gambles.

If you want the D-man who would consistently bag a goal every three or four games, and do it consistently, for 22 years, you want Bourque.

(But damn, Potvin looks impressive here, too.)

 

[cupcrazyman]

Reed. Larsen

Man he was on some terrible Detroit teams with a whopping -128 +/-

 

[cupcrazyman]

If you go by career points as a dman

Bourque
Coffey
MacInnis
Housely
Murphy
Lindstrom
Potvin
Leetch
Robinson
Chelios

 

[Nick Hansen]

Ray Bourque had nine 20-goals seasons in the NHL. That's crazy.

What's even crazier is that in four other seasons, he scored 19. So, he was one goal away, four times, from having thirteen 20-goal seasons.

He had fifteen seasons of 18 or more goals.

So, what D have the most 20-goal seasons?
Potvin: 9
Bourque: 9
Coffey: 8
Orr: 7
MacInnis: 7
Leetch: 5
Park: 3
Wilson: 3
Burns: 3
Blake: 2
Karlsson: 2
Chelios: 1
Lidstrom: 1

18-goal seasons?
Bourque: 15
Potvin: 10
Coffey: 8
MacInnis: 8
Orr: 7
Leetch: 5
Park: 4
Wilson: 4
Blake: 4
Green: 3
Karlsson: 3
Burns: 3
Robinson: 2
Lidstrom: 2

(Let me know if I missed anyone.)

So, it's one of those things -- Coffey and Orr were clearly unique offensive talents from the back-end, and could skate to score a lot in high volumes. But Orr had the short career and Coffey the defensive gambles.

If you want the D-man who would consistently bag a goal every three or four games, and do it consistently, for 22 years, you want Bourque.

(But damn, Potvin looks impressive here, too.)

Shea Weber. Four relevant seasons here: 19, 20, 23 and 23.

Shea Weber Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Oliver Ekman-Larsson has two seasons of 21 and 23 goals as well.

Oliver Ekman-Larsson Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I am also very impressed by Potvin. I never saw him play but from what I've read and heard he was outstanding in basically every other facet of the game as well. Several of the other guys are or were kind of icky defensively at times. That wasn't at all the case with Potvin as far as I know. He also has the second most goals by a defensemen in the playoffs all time behind, you guessed right, Coffey.