Player Discussion: Who should be the 4th line centre?

[voyageur]

This seems to be the spot up for grabs with the chain of events this year, starting with Little's preseason injury, Letestu being shut down for the year, and now Little injured long-term.

Gustafsson looked strong in preseason, sat for a good while, looked good in some of his early games, but seems to have lost Maurice's confidence, as the ice time is quite low. He is processing the game well for such a young player, and has a future in the NHL. It may be too soon, but I think a good experience in his career. I'd be surprised if he still had a spot in the New Year. I expect him to be loaned for the World Juniors because it could be a breakout opportunity for him, playing in his age group, and having been around such skilled players, and good coaching.

Spacek had a good preseason. Maybe has the best wheels of all the potential centres. And some good hands. No one knows what to expect. He is going through the PB experience which the Jets seem to want their young players to experience as part of the learning curve.

Shaw I added because he has NHL experience at centre, and is probably the best faceoff option out of all of the options.

Suess I thought was the frontrunner in preseason. He has a mucky game, which I think Maurice wants. Looked overmatched in his first NHL game, but it was a long travel, so you don't know if the rythym was off.

Harkins is putting up some good numbers for the Moose. Like Spacek he has shown a good progression in the late stages of his 2nd year, carrying into the 3rd. He has less experience then others playing centre, and I think the Jets organization might want him to play some more in the A first.

Griffith has the most NHL experience. He was good on the draws when playing centre last year. Seems like a career AHL player, with some offensive instincts, not sure he has the defensive side that the Jets want at centre.

I guess Appleton could be an option as well, but hasn't played the position much, and isn't an option at the moment either.

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[JetsUK]

Apples has played centre a ton in the A. He or Spacek are the frontrunners, IMO, but I like Suess too in that spot.

Hard pass on Shaw -- had his chance and has done nothing to keep it. Same for Griffiths, who I like as a scorer but no way Mo trusts him for those crucial 4-6 minutes a game.

Harkins is interesting -- has the smarts, the skill and the strong all-round game and the speed too, now. But doubt they bring him up at this point in the year.

Gus will stay until Apples is back, IMO, and then shift to wing or go home for the WJC.

Bottom line is that Mo has never seemingly found a 4th line he wanted to roll as part of a 4-line team and I don't see him changing now unless he's forced to by circumstance or is blown away by a combo. So while many here think it matters that we have a contributing line I'm not sure he does -- so long as they're eating some minutes without being scored on it's enough at this point. Should Little return this year then I think we have some good options -- but there's no guarantee he will.

 

[cbcwpg]

We have a bigger issue than who's the 4th line center... our issue is we don't even have a 4th line... at least one that Maurice is willing to play.

4th line minutes

Nov 23 - Gust ( 4:15 ) Shaw ( 5:17 ) Luoto ( 5:10 )
Nov 21 - Gust ( 3:18 ) Shaw ( 4:04 ) Luoto ( 3:58 )
Nov 19 - Gust ( 4:35 ) Shaw ( 7:51 ) Luoto ( 3:53 )
Nov 16 - Gust ( 5:25 ) Shaw ( 6:32 ) Luoto ( 6:04 )

Years back people were complaining when the Jets 4th line was getting around 10 minutes per game because even at those minutes, our best players were still being over played and getting burnt out. Now Maurice has our 4th line playing no where near 10 minutes. We might be winning now, but our top lines are going to be gassed by February.

And just for comparison, the Bruins last night, had just ONE player under 10 minutes.

 

[Ducky10]

We have a bigger issue than who's the 4th line center... our issue is we don't even have a 4th line... at least one that Maurice is willing to play.

4th line minutes

Nov 23 - Gust ( 4:15 ) Shaw ( 5:17 ) Luoto ( 5:10 )
Nov 21 - Gust ( 3:18 ) Shaw ( 4:04 ) Luoto ( 3:58 )
Nov 19 - Gust ( 4:35 ) Shaw ( 7:51 ) Luoto ( 3:53 )
Nov 16 - Gust ( 5:25 ) Shaw ( 6:32 ) Luoto ( 6:04 )

Years back people were complaining when the Jets 4th line was getting around 10 minutes per game because even at those minutes, our best players were still being over played and getting burnt out. Now Maurice has our 4th line playing no where near 10 minutes. We might be winning now, but our top lines are going to be gassed by February.

And just for comparison, the Bruins last night, had just ONE player under 10 minutes.

As much as I would like to see the 4th line get more ice, I can't imagine our 4th line playing 10 minutes a game .

Based on his play so far, and it is a limited sample, it looks as if keeping Wheeler at C when Little comes back, and keeping Little at C as well. Little on a line with a healthy Apples and possibly K-Ves if he can get his game going would give the Jets way more balance.

 

[voyageur]

Apples has played centre a ton in the A. He or Spacek are the frontrunners, IMO, but I like Suess too in that spot.

Hard pass on Shaw -- had his chance and has done nothing to keep it. Same for Griffiths, who I like as a scorer but no way Mo trusts him for those crucial 4-6 minutes a game.

Harkins is interesting -- has the smarts, the skill and the strong all-round game and the speed too, now. But doubt they bring him up at this point in the year.

Gus will stay until Apples is back, IMO, and then shift to wing or go home for the WJC.

Bottom line is that Mo has never seemingly found a 4th line he wanted to roll as part of a 4-line team. Don't see him changing now unless he's forced to by circumstance or is blown away by a combo. So while I think it matters that we have a contributing line I'm not sure he does -- so long as they're eating some minutes without being scored on it's enough at this point. Should Little return this year then I think we have some good options -- but there's no guarantee he will.

I don't see Apples as a long term solution as centre. I think he is the next guy up to the checking line, as a winger, similar to Roslovic, I think that is his niche.

I agree that we have not been able to roll 4 lines except for the last 2 playoff runs. If Little came back at the deadline, we would have all our parts.

Short term I am looking at Suess. I was impressed with his TC. I think a 4th line of Vesalainen-Suess-Appleton would get more minutes. There is chemistry with Ves and Suess, and Ves and Apples. I think part of what is wrong with the 4th line is that no one has any experience or familiarity with each other. Even in limited minutes, Petan and Roslovic showed chemistry, as did Roslovic-Appleton, that allowed them to play synchronistically, which in turn gave the coach a bit more confidence in them. Well not so much Petan. But Suess and Apples could also be legitimate options as a decent 3rd pairing PK.. Thing is though I don't think Ves gets a call to the 4th line. That's a big downturn in his development. You want him to get some PP minutes when he does get a look. So maybe Chibisov jumps him on the callup list. However Chibisov and Suess weren't great together on the Moose, so maybe Spacek or Harkins would get the call instead. As Shaw has already got 9 games and has to go on waivers to go back, I think he might be the 13rd forward for the year, or maybe the Jets keeps someone on the roster to push Gus. I don't want to see him as a winger, that was the mistake we made with Petan, in his development. He did his best with Perreault and Bourque as his wingers, so maybe he gets another chance with them down the road. Unlikely though. I'd also like to see what Spacek can bring. Chibisov-Spacek-Apples would be a different looking 4th line. A lot more speed and talent with the puck.

 

[ThinIce61]

We have a bigger issue than who's the 4th line center... our issue is we don't even have a 4th line... at least one that Maurice is willing to play.

4th line minutes

Nov 23 - Gust ( 4:15 ) Shaw ( 5:17 ) Luoto ( 5:10 )
Nov 21 - Gust ( 3:18 ) Shaw ( 4:04 ) Luoto ( 3:58 )
Nov 19 - Gust ( 4:35 ) Shaw ( 7:51 ) Luoto ( 3:53 )
Nov 16 - Gust ( 5:25 ) Shaw ( 6:32 ) Luoto ( 6:04 )

Years back people were complaining when the Jets 4th line was getting around 10 minutes per game because even at those minutes, our best players were still being over played and getting burnt out. Now Maurice has our 4th line playing no where near 10 minutes. We might be winning now, but our top lines are going to be gassed by February.

And just for comparison, the Bruins last night, had just ONE player under 10 minutes.

This is the crux of it right here. If this is the ice time the 4th line will get then the answer of who should be 4C is a vet that we aren't trying to develop but will just give us steady error less play as much as possible.
All prospect types should be in the A playing max minutes. A Letestu with a little bit more jump would be fine.
If we were healthy it would look something like
MP-Little-Bourque who would obviously get more minutes so that should be our guide.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

Until you have 4th line wingers that can play at the NHL level, it doesn't really matter much who your 4th line centre is.

 

[pucka lucka]

Nic Petan

 

[Atoyot]

Spacek I guess? I don't know but something has to change there.

 

[Atoyot]

As much as I would like to see the 4th line get more ice, I can't imagine our 4th line playing 10 minutes a game .

Based on his play so far, and it is a limited sample, it looks as if keeping Wheeler at C when Little comes back, and keeping Little at C as well. Little on a line with a healthy Apples and possibly K-Ves if he can get his game going would give the Jets way more balance.

As a defense for the fourth line, I can't imagine how hard it is for them to get in any sort of groove playing so few minutes, not to mention coming into the game ice cold for 30-45 second bursts 8 times a game. Given more ice time they'd likely look a little better.

 

[Ducky10]

As a defense for the fourth line, I can't imagine how hard it is for them to get in any sort of groove playing so few minutes, not to mention coming into the game ice cold for 30-45 second bursts 8 times a game. Given more ice time they'd likely look a little better.

Agreed, more time would give them a better feel for the game. The talent level is only getting so high though, they look pretty awful at times.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Hard to answer this poll. I'm going to have to think about this some more (as if I haven't been thinking about it already ).

I know it shouldn't be Shaw. I don't understand why his name is even on the list. I don't think it should be Harkins. Five min TOI/gm will stunt his growth.

I have similar concern about Gus on the one hand and on the other I think that 4C might be the right landing spot for him if he just had a couple of better wingers than Shaw and Luoto. Give him 2 of Appleton, Bourque and Chibisov and he may be OK now and better next year, if he works on his skating in the off-season. If 3/4C is his ceiling then his growth is not being affected.

Spacek and Griffith may be more offensively oriented and might not do well in a 4th line role. Or, again with the proviso of decent wingers, either might be good there matched up against the oppositions weaker lines.

So far, Suess is doing less this year then he did last year. I'm not quite there yet but considering his age, I am just about ready to write him off.

That leaves just other on this list. For right now I'm going with Appleton under other. He has played C before and I want to get him back in the lineup. I like Bourque and Chibisov on the wings. Start by bringing up Chibisov now and feed the other 2 in when they are fit.

My guess is that it is only the language barrier that is keeping Chibisov out of the lineup. He is reported to be making good progress with his English. Bring him up now while Kulikov is still available to translate.

Send Gus down now, play Spacek in his place or bring up Griffith and give him a shot.

 

[Whileee]

Bryan Little? Adam Lowry?

I think Gus would be okay, but he needs more speed and skill on his wings to cut off time and space. Shaw has been a disaster in his own zone, with a ton of turnovers. Luoto skates fast but thinks slow. I think the 4th line would be okay with Suess-Gus-Appleton.

 

[Whileee]

I voted Spacek, based on the available forwards today. He's faster than Gus and is smart with the puck.

 

[sipowicz]

Copp gets my vote!

 

[KingBogo]

My bold prediction that in the playoffs Little will be our 4th line center and being able to overmatched 4th line matchups will be one of our biggest advantages over other teams.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

We have a bigger issue than who's the 4th line center... our issue is we don't even have a 4th line... at least one that Maurice is willing to play.

4th line minutes

Nov 23 - Gust ( 4:15 ) Shaw ( 5:17 ) Luoto ( 5:10 )
Nov 21 - Gust ( 3:18 ) Shaw ( 4:04 ) Luoto ( 3:58 )
Nov 19 - Gust ( 4:35 ) Shaw ( 7:51 ) Luoto ( 3:53 )
Nov 16 - Gust ( 5:25 ) Shaw ( 6:32 ) Luoto ( 6:04 )

Years back people were complaining when the Jets 4th line was getting around 10 minutes per game because even at those minutes, our best players were still being over played and getting burnt out. Now Maurice has our 4th line playing no where near 10 minutes. We might be winning now, but our top lines are going to be gassed by February.

And just for comparison, the Bruins last night, had just ONE player under 10 minutes.

Right now Mau is going with a 4th line so weak - compared to the available options - that it almost appears as if he is deliberately going with a very weak 4th line. Obviously he is not doing that. Just saying that is how it looks.

It is somewhat influenced by injuries. Bourque and Appleton on the wings would be a big improvement over Luoto and Shaw. But so would Chibisov and Lipon and probably several other combinations.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

As much as I would like to see the 4th line get more ice, I can't imagine our 4th line playing 10 minutes a game .

Based on his play so far, and it is a limited sample, it looks as if keeping Wheeler at C when Little comes back, and keeping Little at C as well. Little on a line with a healthy Apples and possibly K-Ves if he can get his game going would give the Jets way more balance.

I'd like that - but I'm giving zero thought to what happens with Little back. He didn't just have a concussion. He had a brain bleed. Sounds much more serious to me. No medical expert, but I think that if Little wants to see his grandchildren grow up he should quit hockey. Heck, never mind growing up, if he just wants to see them at all he would be wise to get out of the game.

So, if he ever comes back, I will welcome him and figure out a lineup after he gets here.

 

[TheGovernment]

I'd like that - but I'm giving zero thought to what happens with Little back. He didn't just have a concussion. He had a brain bleed. Sounds much more serious to me. No medical expert, but I think that if Little wants to see his grandchildren grow up he should quit hockey. Heck, never mind growing up, if he just wants to see them at all he would be wise to get out of the game.

So, if he ever comes back, I will welcome him and figure out a lineup after he gets here.

It sounds worse than it is.

 

[voyageur]

Right now Mau is going with a 4th line so weak - compared to the available options - that it almost appears as if he is deliberately going with a very weak 4th line. Obviously he is not doing that. Just saying that is how it looks.

It is somewhat influenced by injuries. Bourque and Appleton on the wings would be a big improvement over Luoto and Shaw. But so would Chibisov and Lipon and probably several other combinations.

I think True North is calculating though, and there are a lot of things that go into making a team. Relationships with players off the ice impacts the team on the ice. I almost believe Luoto is up here to keep Laine positive about hockey. Same reason I think Dahlstrom was brought here to help Gustafsson integrate. We have a good Scandanivan/Baltic contingent this season. Shaw is up here for areas of fundamentals: faceoffs/PK but I don't think he has enough to play in the NHL. But you know a kid from Cape Breton, playing in the bigs, that's the dream, so I hope he enjoys his time. Its certainly true that Gustafsson's confidence has not grown with these wingers though. Bourque and Appleton will both likely reintegrate into the 4th line, and then the organization has to make decisions. Does Luoto stay up? There is a learning curve that comes with playing regularly. I think a mucking centre like Suess, who he played with in preseason, would make him more effective, as he does have some Armia-like tracking skills. Spacek deserves a shot at some time, to see where he fits. And if you are trading borderline prospects at the deadline, othersteams need to see what they are getting too.

On the farm I think there are certain dynamics. Chibisov seems to be growing into North America with Berdin. Niku may be someone motivating Vesalainen. On the ice I am watching the prospect combos like Chibisov-Harkins, Suess-Mc Kenzie. Lipon with Vesalainen seems to have the kid playing a bit bigger. You know I would be happy if Lipon played a game for the Jets. He can definitely kill penalties. He is kind of like our Jason Jaffray of the day. Just a guy you appreciate.

 

[ulf]

Try all of them till someone impresses. Gustafson not yet. The rest are maybes

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It sounds worse than it is.

Its not like that was his first head injury. It wasn't even his first this year.

 

[Gm0ney]

I don't think we're doing Gus any favors by playing him 4 minutes a night. He should be getting big minutes and developing properly somewhere. Crazy for a 19-year-old to be handled like this. What happened to the the NHL not being a developmental league and the Jets being a draft and develop team?

Seuss is probably a better choice for the role than Spacek (who I voted for). Neither are probably the ultimate answer.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think True North is calculating though, and there are a lot of things that go into making a team. Relationships with players off the ice impacts the team on the ice. I almost believe Luoto is up here to keep Laine positive about hockey. Same reason I think Dahlstrom was brought here to help Gustafsson integrate. We have a good Scandanivan/Baltic contingent this season. Shaw is up here for areas of fundamentals: faceoffs/PK but I don't think he has enough to play in the NHL. But you know a kid from Cape Breton, playing in the bigs, that's the dream, so I hope he enjoys his time. Its certainly true that Gustafsson's confidence has not grown with these wingers though. Bourque and Appleton will both likely reintegrate into the 4th line, and then the organization has to make decisions. Does Luoto stay up? There is a learning curve that comes with playing regularly. I think a mucking centre like Suess, who he played with in preseason, would make him more effective, as he does have some Armia-like tracking skills. Spacek deserves a shot at some time, to see where he fits. And if you are trading borderline prospects at the deadline, othersteams need to see what they are getting too.

On the farm I think there are certain dynamics. Chibisov seems to be growing into North America with Berdin. Niku may be someone motivating Vesalainen. On the ice I am watching the prospect combos like Chibisov-Harkins, Suess-Mc Kenzie. Lipon with Vesalainen seems to have the kid playing a bit bigger. You know I would be happy if Lipon played a game for the Jets. He can definitely kill penalties. He is kind of like our Jason Jaffray of the day. Just a guy you appreciate.

So play bad players to babysit other players? I'm glad you only almost believe Luoto is here to keep Laine positive. Hire a Finn friend for him if necessary but don't make that Finn try to play hockey.

If Dahlstrom is here for Gustafsson then send both to the Moose.

Shaw is not good enough at anything hockey to justify his being here.

Of course there is something to be said for finding compatible pairs of players and that goes double for some of the European players whose English is limited. But I think some of the things being done right now with prospects and bottom 6 players are hurting both the players and the team. We have plenty of options to build a better 4th line. At least some of those options would also be better for player development.

Chibisov looks like he could be a very valuable player, at least by 4th line standards of value. If we don't bring him up soon we are going to lose him. He is a pending UFA. Both his TC and his play with the Moose say that he should be playing in the NHL.

Gustafsson has a lot of potential but that is not going to be developed by having him over-matched for 5 minutes a game.

With the injuries we have right now Lipon should probably be playing on the 4th line. When we are healthy, he might be the best option in the PB. Certainly better having him sit than Spacek sitting. WTF?

Our bottom 6 is actually getting crowded, if we were healthy right now. But we are playing 3 guys who should not be there.

 

[voyageur]

I don't think Gustafsson can last much longer. He probably had his worst game tonight. He needs to get some confidence. Looks like Shore will be in the lineup sooner or later. It's interesting how Maurice talked about practice being important to getting in the lineup.

I'd like to see Luoto-Shore-Apples as a 4th line right now. Just to see something different.