Who is the third best hockey country?

[JackSlater]

Canada has team full of NHLers any given year.
USA has majority of NHLers any given year.
Sweden, Czechs, Finland, Slovakia have most players from European leagues and MAYBE few NHL players.

Russia is somewhere in between.

How come USA sucks year in and year out against lesser competition? Shouldn't NHL players wipe the floor with players from lesser leagues?

I am sorry, USA is not even close to the number 2 spot unless you consider Olympics only, then they might have a case. USA only played well in Salt Lake City and Vancouver, they suck on the big ice.

Sweden is certainly above USA; a case could be made for Finland, Czechs and Russians too.

Once again, if you actually read you'll see that I have Russia at #2, Sweden at #3 and USA at #4, and I also agree that Czech Republic is close at #5. I'm basing those rankings mainly on the quality of the players those nations have produced since they started playing hockey.

USA performs poorly at the world championships because, as I've said, they do not send teams that are nearly the best that they could. Often times they send NHLers that are mediocre at best. It's not surprising, as I said, that USA's D team loses to a Czech C team, as it's not as if their depth blows them away. Using world championship results will definitely make the nations that have the least interest in the tournament look worse than they actually are.

 

[Scott1980]

I'd say Canada from September 1972 to Feb 2010!

 

[Reds4Life]

Once again, if you actually read you'll see that I have Russia at #2, Sweden at #3 and USA at #4, and I also agree that Czech Republic is close at #5. I'm basing those rankings mainly on the quality of the players those nations have produced since they started playing hockey.

USA performs poorly at the world championships because, as I've said, they do not send teams that are nearly the best that they could. Often times they send NHLers that are mediocre at best. It's not surprising, as I said, that USA's D team loses to a Czech C team, as it's not as if their depth blows them away. Using world championship results will definitely make the nations that have the least interest in the tournament look worse than they actually are.

No top7 country sends the best possible team. That argument is useless.
As for care, don't care - I don't care that USA/Canada/whatever do not care about WHC - it's their problem. WHC definitely says something about hockey prowess of all countries.

 

[jkrx]

Once again, if you actually read you'll see that I have Russia at #2, Sweden at #3 and USA at #4, and I also agree that Czech Republic is close at #5. I'm basing those rankings mainly on the quality of the players those nations have produced since they started playing hockey.

USA performs poorly at the world championships because, as I've said, they do not send teams that are nearly the best that they could. Often times they send NHLers that are mediocre at best. It's not surprising, as I said, that USA's D team loses to a Czech C team, as it's not as if their depth blows them away. Using world championship results will definitely make the nations that have the least interest in the tournament look worse than they actually are.

MÃ…LVAKTER
25 Jacob Markström, Brynäs
35 Anders Lindbäck, Timrå
50 Jonas Gustavsson, Toronto Maple Leafs

BACKAR
3 Oliver Ekman Larsson, Leksand
5 Christian Bäckman, Frölunda
6 Magnus Johansson, Linköping
11 Carl Gunnarsson, Toronto Maple Leafs
65 Victor Hedman, Tampa Bay Lightning
52 Jonathan Ericsson, Detroit Red Wings
77 Erik Karlsson, Ottawa Senators

FORWARDS
9 Tony Mårtensson, Linköping
12 Fredrik Pettersson, Frölunda
20 Andreas Engqvist, Djurgården
21 Mikael Backlund, Calgary Flames
22 Niklas Persson, Neftechimik
23 Linus Omark, Dynamo Moskva
24 Johan Harju, do
26 Marcus Nilsson, Djurgården
51 Rickard Wallin, Toronto Maple Leafs
71 Jonas Andersson, Dynamo Minsk
80 Mattias Weinhandl, Dynamo Moskva
91 Magnus Pääjärvi Svensson, Timrå
92 Michael Nylander, Jokerit

Where do you see the elites in this team for example? I would actually say that this team looks worse than US on paper and yet they perform better.

GOALKEEPERS

BISHOP Ben
CLEMMENSEN Scott
LEGGIO David

DEFENCEMEN

GREENE Matt Los Angeles Kings
JOHNSON Jack Los Angeles Kings
GREENE Andy New Jersey Devils
HILLEN Jack New York Islanders
LUNDIN Mike Tampa Bay Lightning
CHORNEY Taylor Edmonton Oilers
YANDLE Keith Phoenix Coyotes
GILROY Matt New York Rangers

FORWARDS

KENNEDY Tim Buffalo Sabres
POTULNY Ryan Edmonton Oilers
DUBINSKY Brandon New York Rangers
GALIARDI TJ Colorado Avalanche
KREIDER Chris Boston College
HANSON Christian Toronto Maple Leafs
OKPOSO Kyle New York Islanders
CARTER Ryan Anaheim Ducks
NYSTROM Eric Calgary Flames
MOSS David Calgary Flames
FOLIGNO Nick Ottawa Senators
OSHIE TJ St. Louis Blues

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not saying that the USA is the only nation that sends weak teams. I'm saying that the teams they send are proportionately weaker compared to their own strength than those of most European nations year after year. As far as that Swedish team not having stars it isn't surprising. Sweden isn't Canada, it can't put out an all star team if the Olympic players don't go. The same can be said for USA. American teams have absolutely performed poorly at this tournament yearly, however given the low quality of their teams year after year it isn't surprising.

 

[jkrx]

I'm not saying that the USA is the only nation that sends weak teams. I'm saying that the teams they send are proportionately weaker compared to their own strength than those of most European nations year after year. As far as that Swedish team not having stars it isn't surprising. Sweden isn't Canada, it can't put out an all star team if the Olympic players don't go. The same can be said for USA. American teams have absolutely performed poorly at this tournament yearly, however given the low quality of their teams year after year it isn't surprising.

It is surprising compared to that other nations bring low quality teams and perform significantly better.

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

It's pretty strange that people are using the World Championships to judge how good of a country is at hockey. Even using the Olympics is a little silly, a short tournament held every 4 years and since only '98 have the pros been playing anyways. If you need to rank them I would base it on how many NHL players they have, how many great NHL players they have and how many great players they have in other leagues. Russia has never had a great Olympic performance since the pros entered the games, but I think most still believe they produce better players than Finland does. Yet Finland does very well at the Olympics. Also depth doesn't factor in to these tournaments, Canada and USA have a ton of depth in every position but that doesn't help much in a 7 game tournament.

 

[JackSlater]

It is surprising compared to that other nations bring low quality teams and perform significantly better.

... are you serious. I'm saying that the other nations are bringing higher quality teams, while obviously not their best. Once again, it's similar to the Czech/Swedish/Finnish C team vs the USA D team. I've been saying that the whole time.

It's pretty strange that people are using the World Championships to judge how good of a country is at hockey. Even using the Olympics is a little silly, a short tournament held every 4 years and since only '98 have the pros been playing anyways. If you need to rank them I would base it on how many NHL players they have, how many great NHL players they have and how many great players they have in other leagues. Russia has never had a great Olympic performance since the pros entered the games, but I think most still believe they produce better players than Finland does. Yet Finland does very well at the Olympics. Also depth doesn't factor in to these tournaments, Canada and USA have a ton of depth in every position but that doesn't help much in a 7 game tournament.

That pretty much nails it on the head.

 

[jkrx]

... are you serious. I'm saying that the other nations are bringing higher quality teams, while obviously not their best. Once again, it's similar to the Czech/Swedish/Finnish C team vs the USA D team. I've been saying that the whole time.



That pretty much nails it on the head.

How is the Swedish team a C-team? They dont even have the most prominent SEL players in the team. US have regular NHLers or are you saying that the average NHL player has less qualities than a SEL player?

It's pretty strange that people are using the World Championships to judge how good of a country is at hockey. Even using the Olympics is a little silly, a short tournament held every 4 years and since only '98 have the pros been playing anyways. If you need to rank them I would base it on how many NHL players they have, how many great NHL players they have and how many great players they have in other leagues. Russia has never had a great Olympic performance since the pros entered the games, but I think most still believe they produce better players than Finland does. Yet Finland does very well at the Olympics. Also depth doesn't factor in to these tournaments, Canada and USA have a ton of depth in every position but that doesn't help much in a 7 game tournament.

Tournaments is just a variable in the equation ofcourse but it is still important. If we go purely on Elites, prospects and depth my guess would be that US barely cracks top5... Canada, Sweden, Russia and the Finns wins in that department. The czechs and US competes for the last top5 spot with the swiss knocking on the door.

If you have tons of depth it should help in a 7 game tournament... I fail to see how other teams including Canada can do well in such tournaments with depth players but US cannot.

 

[JackSlater]

How is the Swedish team a C-team? They dont even have the most prominent SEL players in the team. US have regular NHLers or are you saying that the average NHL player has less qualities than a SEL player?



Tournaments is just a variable in the equation ofcourse but it is still important. If we go purely on Elites, prospects and depth my guess would be that US barely cracks top5... Canada, Sweden, Russia and the Finns wins in that department. The czechs and US competes for the last top5 spot with the swiss knocking on the door.

If you have tons of depth it should help in a 7 game tournament... I fail to see how other teams including Canada can do well in such tournaments with depth players but US cannot.

I don't know what you're getting at regarding NHL players vs SEL players. Clearly there are some players in the SEL that are better than some of the mediocre American NHL players at this year's tournament. This year their team is simply playing very poorly. I can't claim to know why. Historically they almost never get their best players to go, which most of the European nations do every few years.

There is no way the Americans are behind the Finns in any of those fields you mentioned. Sweden and Russia are ahead of the Americans in terms of elite players, but in terms of depth I think it's somewhat debatable. In terms of prospects over the last few years I am more impressed with the Americans, particularly compared to Russia. It's ridiculous to claim that he Swiss are even close in this regard as well.

As far as Canada's results in the world championships, I would consider them nearly as disappointing as American results when the depth of the natiopns is taken into account. I think both countries send teams that are roughly equal in terms of how weak they are compared to their depth. Canada still does well because they have by far the best depth of any hockey nation. USA does poorly because they are possibly only 4th best in this area. To me, world championship results prior to Europeans in the NHL are valuable in this discussion as a comparison between European nations. After they left for the NHL I think that there are too many changing variables from year to year for the tournament's results to yield any conclusions regarding each nation's quality or depth of players.

 

[Ilyeu]

Modern times: Russia is third. They use to be fourth, but the Czechs worked their way down to fourth or fifth in my opinion.
All Time: Sweden is third.

Sorry to say, but Czechs have done way more impressive things since 1990 than the US has. Even Finland, with the most number of medals at the Olympics and then World Championship finishes.

 

[Bonzai12]

You guys are ALL wrong!

It's MEXICO! That's where we are headed next!

 

[jkrx]

I don't know what you're getting at regarding NHL players vs SEL players. Clearly there are some players in the SEL that are better than some of the mediocre American NHL players at this year's tournament. This year their team is simply playing very poorly. I can't claim to know why. Historically they almost never get their best players to go, which most of the European nations do every few years.

There is no way the Americans are behind the Finns in any of those fields you mentioned. Sweden and Russia are ahead of the Americans in terms of elite players, but in terms of depth I think it's somewhat debatable. In terms of prospects over the last few years I am more impressed with the Americans, particularly compared to Russia. It's ridiculous to claim that he Swiss are even close in this regard as well.

As far as Canada's results in the world championships, I would consider them nearly as disappointing as American results when the depth of the natiopns is taken into account. I think both countries send teams that are roughly equal in terms of how weak they are compared to their depth. Canada still does well because they have by far the best depth of any hockey nation. USA does poorly because they are possibly only 4th best in this area. To me, world championship results prior to Europeans in the NHL are valuable in this discussion as a comparison between European nations. After they left for the NHL I think that there are too many changing variables from year to year for the tournament's results to yield any conclusions regarding each nation's quality or depth of players.

USA with 4th best depth and yet finishes well outside top4 every year.

Not even IIHF believes you...

1
Canada
4105
+1
2
Russia
3965
-1
3
Finland
3880
+1
4
Sweden
3855
-1
5
United States
3825
0

 

[JackSlater]

USA with 4th best depth and yet finishes well outside top4 every year.

Not even IIHF believes you...

1
Canada
4105
+1
2
Russia
3965
-1
3
Finland
3880
+1
4
Sweden
3855
-1
5
United States
3825
0

Having the fourth best depth doesn't mean that you will send the fourth best team year after year, since countries don't send teams that are equally proportionate to their own strength. The Americans may be better than fourth in this regard anyway. Also, IIHF rankings make me laugh.

 

[Young A]

Finland is underrated

USA is overrated

 

[jkrx]

Having the fourth best depth doesn't mean that you will send the fourth best team year after year, since countries don't send teams that are equally proportionate to their own strength. The Americans may be better than fourth in this regard anyway. Also, IIHF rankings make me laugh.

Its not like US is in the top 4 one year and out of it the next. They are constantly outside the top6 year after year. If a national team is going to be ranked above top4 you have to perform at that level.

Take sweden theyve not been the best team every tournament and have had slumps even in major tournaments BUT they average a spot on the top5 in every tournament they play. So does Canada, Finland and Russia. The czechs has fallen off a bit the last 3 years or so but still average around the top5 spot.

 

[Young A]

It's more impressive than anything Russia has done since 1990 as it's a victory in a best on best tournament. In best on best tournaments since 1990 Russia has 1 second place and 2 third places. USA has 1 first, 3 seconds and 1 tie for third in 2004. Clearly USA has a better record in best on bests since 1990. World Championship results are worthless as a measure of best on best results.

you forgot that russian players didn't cared much about the russian national team in the 90's.they went to the nhl in the early 90's and gave a s*** about russia.nowadys the players who grew up in russia in the 90's play with full energy and pride for their country again

and don't count that world cup 96 thing ... whether the world cup is a best on best tournament or not you can't take it serious..it's a NHL promo tournament..

would you rather as a player let usa and canada win in a tournament nobody in the world cares about or take the nhl's attention away and with that your multi million dollars ..think about that!!!

 

[Vladsky]

The answer depends on the measurement period.

All time (God knows when - to date):
1. Canada
2. US
3. USSR/Russia
4. Czechoslovakia/C/S
5. Swe
6. Fin

Post-1972 (Sep 1972 - to date):
1. Canada
2. USSR/Russia
3. Czechoslovakia/C/S
4. US
5. Swe
6. Fin

Post-USSR (СС 1991 - to date):
1. Canada
2. US
3. Czech
4. Swe
5. Russia
6. Fin
7. Slovakia

Post-lockout (2005 - to date):
1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Swe
4. US
5. Czech
6. Fin
7. Slovakia

Edit: Today:
1. Canada
2. US
3. Russia
4. Swe
5. Czech
6. Fin
7. Slovakia

Note: The only period of time in the hockey history when Canada was not a clear #1 was approx 1978-1987.

 

[barneyg]

My European dad is better than your American dad.

 

[JackSlater]

you forgot that russian players didn't cared much about the russian national team in the 90's.they went to the nhl in the early 90's and gave a s*** about russia.nowadys the players who grew up in russia in the 90's play with full energy and pride for their country again

and don't count that world cup 96 thing ... whether the world cup is a best on best tournament or not you can't take it serious..it's a NHL promo tournament..

would you rather as a player let usa and canada win in a tournament nobody in the world cares about or take the nhl's attention away and with that your multi million dollars ..think about that!!!

I don't see how NHL involvement makes the tournament less significant.

The Russian roster in 1996 looks very good to me. As far as I can tell all the best Russian players of the time played. As far as those guys not caring about representing Russia, look at Fedorov and Bure, probably the two best players on that team. Fedorov is still representing Russia in 2010 and Bure has remained very involved in Russian hockey since his retirement. If the other players at the time didn't care about Russia or that tournament I doubt they would have gone.