Who is the third best hockey country?

[Crazyhorse]

I don't create alot of threads on this forum, but i am interested to know what you think about this one...

It is generally acknowledged that Canada and Russia are the hockey super powers, ahead of everyone else in terms of merits. What country would you put at third place?(forget about the Canada/Russia debate, please).

I figure that it would be a close call between Czechoslovakia(or Czechs) and Sweden, but US success in the World Cup 96 and in some olympics maybe can get them some attention aswell?

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[jkrx]

I don't create alot of threads on this forum, but i am interested to know what you think about this one...

It is generally acknowledged that Canada and Russia are the hockey super powers, ahead of everyone else in terms of merits. What country would you put at third place?(forget about the Canada/Russia debate, please).

I figure that it would be a close call between Czechoslovakia(or Czechs) and Sweden, but US success in the World Cup 96 and in some olympics maybe can get them some attention aswell?

1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. US
5. Czech
6. Finland
7. Slovakia
8. Swiss
9. Denmark
10. Germany

 

[CoupeStanley]

Canada
USA

Russia
Sweden

Czech Republic
Finland
Slovakia
Swiss

 

[jkrx]

Canada
USA

Russia
Sweden

Czech Republic
Finland
Slovakia
Swiss

1 Finland 3 5:6 6
2 Germany 3 5:3 5
3 Denmark 3 7:5 5
4 USA 3 4:7 2

and still #2 on your ranking... optimistic..

 

[Chadstudsky]

1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. US
5. Czech
6. Finland
7. Slovakia
8. Swiss
9. Denmark
10. Germany

I agree with this.

 

[Hrad]

1. Canada
2. Russia
3. United States of America
4. Sweden
5. Czech Republic
6. Finland
7. Slovakia
8. Swiss
9. Denmark
10. Belarus

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

A devil's advocate could ask, what has Russia actually achieved to be a super power? The Soviet Union was a super power but Russia has 3 golds 1 silvers 2 bronzes at WCs since 1992, one silver and one bronze at Olympics. Sweden has 3 golds, 5 silvers and 5 bronzes at WCs and 2 Olympic golds in the same time frame. Sweden's record easily superior over the last 18 years.

 

[Badger36]

Russia is #3. Canada and the USA are #1 and #2.

 

[NMF78]

A devil's advocate could ask, what has Russia actually achieved to be a super power? The Soviet Union was a super power but Russia has 3 golds 1 silvers 2 bronzes at WCs since 1992, one silver and one bronze at Olympics. Sweden has 3 golds, 5 silvers and 5 bronzes at WCs and 2 Olympic golds in the same time frame. Sweden's record easily superior over the last 18 years.

over the last 18 years yes but all-time no, looking at all the Olympics & IIHF-tournaments its:

1 Canada
2 Russia
3 Czech Rep
4 Sweden
5 USA
6 Finland

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Sweden is a close 3rd not far behind Russia IMO. Sweden never fails to produce top end two-way players.

 

[Reds4Life]

IMHO Sweden is better than Russia, most of the Russian players are one dimensional floaters.
in terms of player quality:
Canada
Sweden
Russia

USA is probably fourth.

Though, if you want to go by population to hockey players ratio, Finland should be pretty high too.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

over the last 18 years yes but all-time no, looking at all the Olympics & IIHF-tournaments its:

1 Canada
2 Russia
3 Czech Rep
4 Sweden
5 USA
6 Finland

You don't seem to understand the point of what I said, namely the distinction between the Soviet Union of which Russia was one part and the independent country Russia which didn't exist for about 70 years until 1992.

Russian players made up the majority of the Soviet elite hockey players but not all of them. Furthermore the Soviet system of sport promotion has more or less died with the breakup of the Soviet Union and therefore Russia as a country can't really take credit for it.

 

[jkrx]

Seriously.. US get a second place in one olympics and some people rank them as #2... they didnt even make it to the playoffs in the WC against team who are supposed to be weaker.

Might add that since 1990 US has 2 silvers and 2 bronze in the WC and Olympics. To compare Russia has 3 golds 2 silver 2 bronze.

 

[NMF78]

You don't seem to understand the point of what I said, namely the distinction between the Soviet Union of which Russia was one part and the independent country Russia which didn't exist for about 70 years until 1992.

Russian players made up the majority of the Soviet elite hockey players but not all of them. Furthermore the Soviet system of sport promotion has more or less died with the breakup of the Soviet Union and therefore Russia as a country can't really take credit for it.

I disagree, Russia is accepted as the legal successor of the Soviet Union not just in sports (for example the Soviet Union permanent seat in the UN security council and veto-right was given to Russia), and most if not all of the Soviet Union sports records were transfered to Russia, for example the IIHF says that Russia has 25 world championships overall not 3. The same thing applies to the Czech Republic after the collapse of Czechoslovakia. Furthermore the Soviet Hockey teams were always dominated by Russians unlike for example the football teams where it was more mixed but even if this wasn't the case they would still be the legal successor and hold the USSR record & history.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I disagree, Russia is accepted as the legal successor of the Soviet Union not just in sports (for example the Soviet Union permanent seat in the UN security council and veto-right was given to Russia), and most if not all of the Soviet Union sports records were transfered to Russia, for example the IIHF says that Russia has 25 world championships overall not 3. The same thing applies to the Czech Republic after the collapse of Czechoslovakia. Furthermore the Soviet Hockey teams were always dominated by Russians unlike for example the football teams where it was more mixed but even if this wasn't the case they would still be the legal successor and hold the USSR record & history.

Yeah that's legal terms, there always needs to be a legal successor for purposes of administration etc. but this is a subjective ranking on a forum and for argument's sake a distinction can clearly be made. I mean the drop from the Soviet success to the Russian struggles was pretty steep, wasn't it?

 

[Rizer]

in terms of player quality:
Canada
Sweden
Russia

USA is probably fourth.

Though, if you want to go by population to hockey players ratio, Finland should be pretty high too.

I agree with this.

Finland is also very impressive if you consider the entire country is not even as big as most US states population wise. The amount of quality hockey players, rally and f1 drivers they have is very surprising.

 

[VanIslander]

In terms of hockey HISTORY (this is the Hockey forum after all)...

Russians in the USSR weren't into ice hockey until the 1950s.

USA won Olympic silver in 1920, 1924, 1932, second to Canada each time. There are several American players in the Hockey Hall of Fame from the early era of professional hockey, like Shorty Green, Hobey Baker, Moose Goheen, and Frank Brimsek.

So, in the first half of professional hockey history it was clearly #1 Canada and #2 USA.

USA won Olympic gold in 1960 and 1980 but took a back seat to the Soviets and the Czechoslovakians clearly between the 1950s-1980s in all arenas of professional hockey.

The Czechoslovakians were clearly better than the Soviets up to 1948 (winning the 1933 and 1947 World Championships, 1948 Olympic gold) and for some years in the 1970s with World Championship golds and a Canada Cup silver but the ranking between them in the 50s, 60s and 80s favours the USSR bya wider margin.

The Swedes were a close second to the Czechoslovakians for much of the first half of the 20th century.

So it clearly was Canada, then USA, Soviets, Czechoslovakians, Swedes up to and not including the 1980s.

What has happened in the last quarter or so century to shift the historical ranking of hockey powers?

(I'll leave that to those who prefer to look at recent decades of hockey.)

 

[Franck]

1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. US
5. Czech
6. Finland
7. Slovakia
8. Swiss
9. Denmark
10. Germany

I agree fully with this list.

 

[JackSlater]

1. Canada
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. Usa
5. Czech Republic
6. Finland
7. Slovakia

I think that the gap between Sweden and USA is very small, with the Americans poised to surpass them within the next few years due to superior player development in recent years, which isn't to say that Sweden has been poor in this regard.

Seriously.. US get a second place in one olympics and some people rank them as #2... they didnt even make it to the playoffs in the WC against team who are supposed to be weaker.

Might add that since 1990 US has 2 silvers and 2 bronze in the WC and Olympics. To compare Russia has 3 golds 2 silver 2 bronze.

The USA win at the 1996 World Cup goes a long way, and is more impressive than anything Russia has done since 1990.

 

[jkrx]

The USA win at the 1996 World Cup goes a long way, and is more impressive than anything Russia has done since 1990.

Why?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Seriously.. US get a second place in one olympics and some people rank them as #2... they didnt even make it to the playoffs in the WC against team who are supposed to be weaker.

Might add that since 1990 US has 2 silvers and 2 bronze in the WC and Olympics. To compare Russia has 3 golds 2 silver 2 bronze.

On the other hand, what has Russia done to show that they can even compete at best-on-best tournaments? And no, the World Championships are not best-on-best.

Edit: I'm obviously making a distinction between Russia and the USSR.

 

[jkrx]

On the other hand, what has Russia done to show that they can even compete at best-on-best tournaments? And no, the World Championships are not best-on-best.

Edit: I'm obviously making a distinction between Russia and the USSR.

Russia has 1 silver and one bronze in olympics and USA have 2 silvers. Both being at home advantage sort of. The point is that USA has been out of the competetion for so long that need to climb a bit. before you can say that they are number 2.

Theres never such thing as a best on best tournament. Theres always ome excuse. "he was injured" "he had a slump" and so on

What we are seeing right now is that Team USA might be out of the WC A group again and that doesnt qualify them to a second place in the world ranking.

 

[SuburbanArgyle]

It amazes me that Germany is not more competitive on the world scale, and that they don't contribute more players to the NHL. There is so much hockey being played over there.

 

[Theokritos]

Considering 'best on best' tournaments (yes, there IS such a thing) in the more recent past (World Cup 1996, 2004 + Olympic Games 1998, 2002, 2006, 2010), Canada walks away with the Nr.1 spot:

1996: Final, Nr. 2 overall.
1998: Semi final.
2002: Final, Nr. 1 overall.
2004: Final, Nr. 1 overall.
2006: Quarter final.
2010: Final, Nr. 1 overall.

The second spot goes to the United States:

1996: Final, Nr.1 overall.
1998: Quarter final.
2002: Final, Nr.2 overall.
2004: Semi final.
2006: Quarter final.
2010: Final, Nr.2 overall.

The third best is more difficult to determine. I tend to say that Finland's record looks pretty good compared to Sweden and the Czech Republic:

1996: Quarter final.
1998: Semi final.
2002: Quarter final.
2004: Final, Nr.2 overall.
2006: Final, Nr.2 overall.
2010: Semi final.

A gold medal is lacking though. The same circumstance weakens Russia's stance:

1996: Semi final.
1998: Final, Nr.2 overall.
2002: Semi final.
2004: Quarter final.
2006: Semi final.
2010: Quarter final.

Czech Republic:
1996: Eliminated in group stage.
1998: Final, Nr.1 overall.
2002: Quarter final.
2004: Semi final.
2006: Semi final.
2010: Quarter final.

Sweden:
1996: Semi final.
1998: Quarter final.
2002: Quarter final.
2004: Quarter final.
2006: Final, Nr.1 overall.
2010: Quarter final.

It's one out of Finland, Russia and the Czech Republic, can't really say which one. If you take the last couple of World Championships into account, Russia makes the race.

1) Canada, 2) USA, 3) Russia, 4) Finland, 5) Czech Republic, 6) Sweden

Of course, if you talk about the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's as well, the ranking looks different. Probably: 1) Canada, 2) USSR, 3) Sweden, 4) CSSR. Or: 3) CSSR, 4) Sweden.

 

[JackSlater]

Why?

It's more impressive than anything Russia has done since 1990 as it's a victory in a best on best tournament. In best on best tournaments since 1990 Russia has 1 second place and 2 third places. USA has 1 first, 3 seconds and 1 tie for third in 2004. Clearly USA has a better record in best on bests since 1990. World Championship results are worthless as a measure of best on best results.