Who are the core?

KJ Dangler

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Oct 21, 2006
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For sure. But when you're in cap hell, you let a couple good players go. Guys like Jenner will be gone, and we'll be relying on ELC contracts to step up and fill gaps on the scoring lines (like the Hawks and Pens did). That might result in a dropoff of 10 or 15 goals, but replacing Bob with an average goalie is letting in an extra 20 or 30 goals per year (30 last year).

What was Bob's save percentage in March? .950? If he does that in the playoffs it will mean more to this team than any forward acquisition possibly could.

Your absolutely correct in that resigning bob means that you lose a couple really good young players, especially with what Werenski will most liklely command as well. Maybe that means they cant resign a Jenner, and maybe a Panarin. 8-10 mill is a huge chunk of the cap, and with Korpi, Elvis, Tarasov, one of those 3 is being counted on to take the reigns when Bobs contract is up. Just like what happened in Pittsburgh, with Murray, and Fleury was made available .

Also, as you mention, Bob has been great in the regular season, and a disaster in his playoff appearances. All this of course is just my opinion, but from the front offices actions, I don't see them planning on resigning Bob. They felt it was worth a first round pick to make sure Korpi, and Murray were protected, we easily could have got a serviceable back up to Bob for this coming season. Elvis may be ready to compete for the job as soon as next year, and as mentioned, Tarasov was a first round talent , that fell because of his leg injury, that appears to not be an issue.
 
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major major

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Feb 18, 2013
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Also, as you mention, Bob has been great in the regular season, and a disaster in his playoff appearances. All this of course is just my opinion, but from the front offices actions, I don't see them planning on resigning Bob. They felt it was worth a first round pick to make sure Korpi, and Murray were protected, we easily could have got a serviceable back up to Bob for this coming season. Elvis may be ready to compete for the job as soon as next year, and as mentioned, Tarasov was a first round talent , that fell because of his leg injury, that appears to not be an issue.

If I really felt like there was some skill Bob was missing for the playoffs that he couldn't get I would be more inclined to agree. But in my opinion the couple playoff series we've seen him are either random performance swings or poor mindset (combination of both, likely). That's all stuff that he can fix or is just as likely to swing the other way. If he can do a .967 in March he can do it in April. It's still hockey. It's still goalie. It's still an elite goalie.

I'm excited for some of the young goalies too. We might even get a couple of them who are .915 types, which would be great. But that's still 30 more goals let in on top of what Bob did last year. Nothing short of a real star turn for one of the kids would make me let Bob go with the ease some of you have shown.
 

Forepar

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Nov 6, 2011
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South-Central Ohio
Agree with tenor of posts that Bob is part of the core and that Bob's playoff sample size is not large enough to draw too many conclusions. If Bob had performed in playoffs as average regular season Bob (ignoring injury stints and recovery), then the concern about his salary would be less (conceding that his play contributed to his small sample size, but so did the Pens and our veterans).

IMO the issue is whether Bob's performance (regular season AND playoffs) will be worth the incremental difference between that new salary and a mid- to mid-upper level goalie salary, not whether it's $7-8-9-10M. Sometimes the comments read as if it were his entire salary as the issue. However, there is no legitimate playoff/SC contender with an ELC goalie between the pipes as their Plan A. I haven't done the precise math, but the perceived contenders across the NHL mostly have a G in the $5M-6M-7M range, with only a few with a #1 goalie in the $4M range and a back up at $3-4M. To me the question is whether Bob is worth the difference between his contract price and $6.0M, and whether a lower priced backup (i.e. young as in Korpi or previusly journeyman backup like Curtis) can play well enough for enough games to stem the tide when rest or minor injuries hit. If major injury hits, it's going to be difficult for any team to plug the hole for an entire season, but that's when you have to make a trade if all else is in line for a run and the young G isn't cutting it.
PIT in the playoffs this year might have been an exception, but everyone knew Fleury was on the way out, and likely to VGK. So far, IMO, I'd take the bet on Bob long haul over the tandem of two "middling" goalies or a developing G, recognizing that Bob's playoff performance still tbd - ask again in 2 years.

Per Capfriendly:


PIT - Murray $3.75; Niemi 0.70 (Fleury was at $5.75 last season on 2nd year of 4 yr deal).
WAS - Holtby $6.1; Grubauer 1.5
NYR - Henrik $8.5; Pavalec 1.3
NYI - Halak $4.5; Griess 3.33
PHI - Elliott $2.75; Nuevirth 2.50
NJD - Schneider $6.0; Kincaid $1.25
CAR - Darling 4.15; Ward 3.3
CBJ - Bob 7.425; Korpi 0.9


Even outside the division, the trend seems to be the same - teams in the hunt for playoffs tend to have higher paid (i.e. either better or at least more experienced and thus higher paid) goalies:

TOR - Andersen 5.0; McCurtis 0.85
MTL - Price 10.5
OTT - Anderson 4.2; Condon 2.6
BOS - Rask 7.0; Khudobin 1.2
FLA - Luongo 4.533; Riemer 3.4
TBL - Varlesky 3.5;
DET - Howard 5.3; Mrazek 4.0
BUF - Lehner 4.0; Johnson 2.5

in the West, more of the same:

NSH - Rinne 7.0
CHI - Crawford 6.0
STL - Allen 4.35; Hutton 1.125
CAL - Smith 4.25; Lack 1.375
EDM - Talbott 4.166; Brossoit 0.75, with $54M in contracts for 19-20 on 9 players (no G)
LA - Quick 5.8; Kuemper 0.65 (no contract after this season).
MIN - Dubnykk 4.333; Stalock 0.65
SJ - Jones 5.75
ANA - Gibson 2.3; Miller 2.0 (37 yr old Ryan Miller - when did that happen?)
VAN - Markstrom 3.66; Nilsson 2.5
COL (yes, THAT Colorado) - Varlamov 5.9; Bernier 2.75.
VGK - Fleury at $5.75


I just can't see CBJ letting Bob go unless cost well north of $10M. Other than Price, most of these G contracts have some years already on them, so the prices are going to go up as cap increases. Better analysis is % of cap at the time of the new deal. Bob will be 31 entering the 19-20 season, still several prime years left for G. Key will be term - shorter preferred for CBJ then. The total amount devoted to G position by CBJ seems relatively in range compared to most teams. Now if Bob struggles in the PO's (I assume they make it back), then the question will be whether to go to a B+ goalie, with a strong seasoned backup to insure against injuries or go for it with one stud regular season goalie (i.e. Bob) and younger backup (or older stable but less-talented backup), in hopes that Bob finally cycles right in the PO's. My position assumes Bob answers the bell in the playoffs in the next 2 years at a high level. While Korpi has potential, there is no way IMO that you count on him taking the reins in 1, 2 or even 3 years. I don't want to see anyone but Bob in the net as our #1 for the next 2 years while we still have him under contract - the door is open now, and there actually is cap space to add at TDL if needed.

I very much like the Jenners, Anderson's, etc... on this team, and I understand the concern of losing one or more in order to keep Bob, but I'd rather have to fit a few youngun's in as depth forwards to replace the Jenners on this team (as much as it would hurt to see him go) than count on an unproven or B level G as the #1. Plus, Korpi is not going to get much more than 1.25-1.5 when his contract expires unless he plays significantly more than we anticipate (injury or unlikely coaching decision to balance games) and puts up .920+ numbers for extended period. Korpi will be an RFA, not a UFA.

CHI won 3 cups primarily with Crawford; at least one was during a 3 year bridge, but at least last one and possibly two were on $6.0 AVV. PIT has won 3 with Fleury on the roster, conceding Murray was the man in 2016 PO's, but PIT would not have made it to the SCF without Fleury in 2017. Kings won with Quick in goal 2x, with the second at $5.8 (10 year deal before 8 yr limit imposed). Boston had Tim Thomas on AAV of $5.0M when they won 6 years ago, before any salary inflation, and made it back a few years later. Similar observations for SC runnersup in recent years (Rinne, Jones, Bishop, Henrik, Thomas/Rask?, Broduer).

Just have not seen the committee approach work to win or get to the SCF, with the exception being this past year's injury situation with PIT. Do you need a solid backup - YES, but can be young. I am just not seeing the highest level of ultimate success for teams with a 1a and 1b (PHI and DAL being my poster child teams for that mantra). Split duties may work for developing teams, but not usually for the true contenders. I'd like to think CBJ is in the latter category, or at least on the cusp.
 
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KJ Dangler

Registered User
Oct 21, 2006
8,345
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Columbus
Agree with tenor of posts that Bob is part of the core and that Bob's playoff sample size is not large enough to draw too many conclusions. If Bob had performed in playoffs as average regular season Bob (ignoring injury stints and recovery), then the concern about his salary would be less (conceding that his play contributed to his small sample size, but so did the Pens and our veterans).

IMO the issue is whether Bob's performance (regular season AND playoffs) will be worth the incremental difference between that new salary and a mid- to mid-upper level goalie salary, not whether it's $7-8-9-10M. Sometimes the comments read as if it were his entire salary as the issue. However, there is no legitimate playoff/SC contender with an ELC goalie between the pipes as their Plan A. I haven't done the precise math, but the perceived contenders across the NHL mostly have a G in the $5M-6M-7M range, with only a few with a #1 goalie in the $4M range and a back up at $3-4M. To me the question is whether Bob is worth the difference between his contract price and $6.0M, and whether a lower priced backup (i.e. young as in Korpi or previusly journeyman backup like Curtis) can play well enough for enough games to stem the tide when rest or minor injuries hit. If major injury hits, it's going to be difficult for any team to plug the hole for an entire season, but that's when you have to make a trade if all else is in line for a run and the young G isn't cutting it.
PIT in the playoffs this year might have been an exception, but everyone knew Fleury was on the way out, and likely to VGK. So far, IMO, I'd take the bet on Bob long haul over the tandem of two "middling" goalies or a developing G, recognizing that Bob's playoff performance still tbd - ask again in 2 years.

Per Capfriendly:


PIT - Murray $3.75; Niemi 0.70 (Fleury was at $5.75 last season on 2nd year of 4 yr deal).
WAS - Holtby $6.1; Grubauer 1.5
NYR - Henrik $8.5; Pavalec 1.3
NYI - Halak $4.5; Griess 3.33
PHI - Elliott $2.75; Nuevirth 2.50
NJD - Schneider $6.0; Kincaid $1.25
CAR - Darling 4.15; Ward 3.3
CBJ - Bob 7.425; Korpi 0.9


Even outside the division, the trend seems to be the same - teams in the hunt for playoffs tend to have higher paid (i.e. either better or at least more experienced and thus higher paid) goalies:

TOR - Andersen 5.0; McCurtis 0.85
MTL - Price 10.5
OTT - Anderson 4.2; Condon 2.6
BOS - Rask 7.0; Khudobin 1.2
FLA - Luongo 4.533; Riemer 3.4
TBL - Varlesky 3.5;
DET - Howard 5.3; Mrazek 4.0
BUF - Lehner 4.0; Johnson 2.5

in the West, more of the same:

NSH - Rinne 7.0
CHI - Crawford 6.0
STL - Allen 4.35; Hutton 1.125
CAL - Smith 4.25; Lack 1.375
EDM - Talbott 4.166; Brossoit 0.75, with $54M in contracts for 19-20 on 9 players (no G)
LA - Quick 5.8; Kuemper 0.65 (no contract after this season).
MIN - Dubnykk 4.333; Stalock 0.65
SJ - Jones 5.75
ANA - Gibson 2.3; Miller 2.0 (37 yr old Ryan Miller - when did that happen?)
VAN - Markstrom 3.66; Nilsson 2.5
COL (yes, THAT Colorado) - Varlamov 5.9; Bernier 2.75.
VGK - Fleury at $5.75


I just can't see CBJ letting Bob go unless cost well north of $10M. Other than Price, most of these G contracts have some years already on them, so the prices are going to go up as cap increases. Better analysis is % of cap at the time of the new deal. Bob will be 31 entering the 19-20 season, still several prime years left for G. Key will be term - shorter preferred for CBJ then. The total amount devoted to G position by CBJ seems relatively in range compared to most teams. Now if Bob struggles in the PO's (I assume they make it back), then the question will be whether to go to a B+ goalie, with a strong seasoned backup to insure against injuries or go for it with one stud regular season goalie (i.e. Bob) and younger backup (or older stable but less-talented backup), in hopes that Bob finally cycles right in the PO's. My position assumes Bob answers the bell in the playoffs in the next 2 years at a high level. While Korpi has potential, there is no way IMO that you count on him taking the reins in 1, 2 or even 3 years. I don't want to see anyone but Bob in the net as our #1 for the next 2 years while we still have him under contract - the door is open now, and there actually is cap space to add at TDL if needed.

I very much like the Jenners, Anderson's, etc... on this team, and I understand the concern of losing one or more in order to keep Bob, but I'd rather have to fit a few youngun's in as depth forwards to replace the Jenners on this team (as much as it would hurt to see him go) than count on an unproven or B level G as the #1. Plus, Korpi is not going to get much more than 1.25-1.5 when his contract expires unless he plays significantly more than we anticipate (injury or unlikely coaching decision to balance games) and puts up .920+ numbers for extended period. Korpi will be an RFA, not a UFA.

CHI won 3 cups primarily with Crawford; at least one was during a 3 year bridge, but at least last one and possibly two were on $6.0 AVV. PIT has won 3 with Fleury on the roster, conceding Murray was the man in 2016 PO's, but PIT would not have made it to the SCF without Fleury in 2017. Kings won with Quick in goal 2x, with the second at $5.8 (10 year deal before 8 yr limit imposed). Boston had Tim Thomas on AAV of $5.0M when they won 6 years ago, before any salary inflation, and made it back a few years later. Similar observations for SC runnersup in recent years (Rinne, Jones, Bishop, Henrik, Thomas/Rask?, Broduer).

Just have not seen the committee approach work to win or get to the SCF, with the exception being this past year's injury situation with PIT. Do you need a solid backup - YES, but can be young. I am just not seeing the highest level of ultimate success for teams with a 1a and 1b (PHI and DAL being my poster child teams for that mantra). Split duties may work for developing teams, but not usually for the true contenders. I'd like to think CBJ is in the latter category, or at least on the cusp.

What you posted is exactly my thought process. Of all the goalies you listed, we are probably looking at an average salary around 4-5 mill. The outlier ofcourse is Montreal. Think about this, we resign Werenski for 8 mill season, Bob 10 mill a season, that's nearly 1/4 of your cap , right there. Don't remotely see that happening. The situation will play itself out of course, but I expect Korpi to get a lot more work this year, compared to last season, and I expect Elvis to make his move to North American Hockey. On top of that , we will have one of the best defenses in the league, and if need be, we could easily bring in a pretty good goalie for 5 mill per season. Like I said, we will see how it plays out, I just don't see any teams really built for the long term, with tons of young assets maturing, paying their goalie 10 mill per season.
 

Forepar

Registered User
Nov 6, 2011
1,236
703
South-Central Ohio
What you posted is exactly my thought process. Of all the goalies you listed, we are probably looking at an average salary around 4-5 mill. The outlier ofcourse is Montreal. Think about this, we resign Werenski for 8 mill season, Bob 10 mill a season, that's nearly 1/4 of your cap , right there. Don't remotely see that happening. The situation will play itself out of course, but I expect Korpi to get a lot more work this year, compared to last season, and I expect Elvis to make his move to North American Hockey. On top of that , we will have one of the best defenses in the league, and if need be, we could easily bring in a pretty good goalie for 5 mill per season. Like I said, we will see how it plays out, I just don't see any teams really built for the long term, with tons of young assets maturing, paying their goalie 10 mill per season.

I had to laugh, TBM, in that you used my listing of salaries to come to the opposite conclusion I reached - that they keep Bob if AAV is $10M or less.

Not laughing at your conclusion, just at the irony that the same set of numbers can be interpreted so differently. There seems to be reasonable support for both interpretations. You are right, most teams are in the $4-5M range, and if you can find a young rising G who is cost-controlled, that leaves more cap space to fill other positions. And a young rising G could be hot enough to make a playoff run.
Conversely, I think I see a trend that recent primary contenders (for the sake of brevity, SC finalists) had significantly more cap space invested in the G position than $4-5N (whether it be a Rinne, a Murray/Fleury tandem, Crawford, Thomas/Rask or Henrik).

Some of what I think is a trend can be attributed to the fact that elite G play all year long will get you to the playoffs - so those teams are more likely to get in the PO's in the first place.

Some of it is timing. Elite G's tend to be very stable from game to game, so no big ups or downs in PO's. Unfortunately my theory has not held up with Bob's performance (although the sample size is too small). Even elite G's have a bad game or two or three in a row at some point in the season (Bob didn't seem to). A 3-game stretch of 4 GAA doesn't get noticed much in an 82-game regular season, and/oror gets attributed to bad overall team play. However, even a 2-game stretch of mediocre play from your G in the PO's stands out like a sore thumb and the series is over (e.g. Bob and CBJ in 2017). No doubt a young G could step up and be hot for a series or two or even three, but is that same G able to sustain a high level of play over 82 games to get you into the dance? At least so far, our CBJ have needed that level of G play to just get there...last season they were much better on D, a tad bit better up front, and great PP for 2/3 of the year. So last year elite G play got them to 108 points and threatening the President's Cup for a good portion of the season, beyond just getting in. But turn 5 wins into 5 losses, and they would have been in a dogfight for the last spot.


Interesting stuff...glad no decision needs to be made this year. While I would like to see CBJ extend his contract next summer, they probably will need to make that decision next summer one way or the other - otherwise he's a UFA and he could leave with CBJ getting nothing in return.
 

major major

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
14,598
1,669
@ forepar: I finally got around to reading your "tome". I obviously agree, but I'll admit I didn't know that:
1. elite teams were much more likely to have an expensive elite G.
2. teams with bargain tandems are much more likely have terrible goaltending.

So interesting research (the kindest words in my field).
 

Privet

Registered User
Sep 25, 2015
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39
Victoria, BC
Vitaly has to be part of the core. I think this guy will be an absolute beast. I think he will be similar to Kucherov, but faster... holy jumpin!
 

Forepar

Registered User
Nov 6, 2011
1,236
703
South-Central Ohio
@ forepar: I finally got around to reading your "tome". I obviously agree, but I'll admit I didn't know that:
1. elite teams were much more likely to have an expensive elite G.
2. teams with bargain tandems are much more likely have terrible goaltending.

So interesting research (the kindest words in my field).

Are you pecking at me or being serious? LOL, I am paranoid on here some times.
Thanks.
And truth be told, one may have reason to peck at me (see my own pecking, below).
Sorry for the tome - that paranoia doesn't completely stop me from posting - but it does cause me to over-research stuff before I put an opinion out there, and to over-analyze, and to other times lurk more than post.

I'm not sure that my opinion on this one holds all the water - there seems to be a definite trend, I put it out there, but there are other possible explanations and views.

It could just be that because several of those SCF teams have made repeat appearances in the SCF, with the same G in net, that their G ends up getting paid higher $ on their next contract AS A RESULT OF prior SCF appearances/wins by the TEAM with serviceable goal tending, but not because of stellar overall G talent/play. Thus while there may be correlation between expensive/elite G and SCPO success, the causation may not be there.

For example, I am skeptical of Crawford being "elite" or meriting $6M when comparing him to other G's extended performance/talent level. Without looking it up, it seems every time I watch CHI over the years, even in a few PO games, Crawford gives up 4 or more goals, and he appears to be all over the place. His regular season stats aren't bad but not great either, and his PO statistics appear to be up and down from game to game. But that isn't a completely fair analysis, as I don't watch him play regularly (other than NBC's love affair with CHI), and CHI's run and gun style likely contributes to his GAA and my perception. AND HE HAS 3 RINGS, so what do I know? :)
 

CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
42,418
24,354
Vitaly has to be part of the core. I think this guy will be an absolute beast. I think he will be similar to Kucherov, but faster... holy jumpin!

A guy who hasn't played one minute for the team isn't part of the 'core'. Not by my definition anyways. That's why I refused to put Panarin on my list, because nobody knows how he will fit. I'm sure alot of people who put him in the core list would have also put Gaborik on the core list before the 2013-14 season.
 

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