jetsmooseice
Let Chevy Cook
- Feb 20, 2020
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WHL-BCHL Merger. Could It Happen?
- Thread starter jetsmooseice
- Start date
I worked in the BCHL for 3 years and I can confidently say that league has absolutely ZERO desire to be affiliated with the WHL in any way, shape or form.
They want to draw players AWAY from the WHL, which they have done so with regularity in recent years. There has been some high-end talent that has gone the BCHL/NCAA route after being high WHL draft selections.
The BCHL decoupled itself from Hockey Canada because they want to create a "super" Junior A League. They want to compete with USHL teams. They also want to be able to recruit players from coast to coast, something that is difficult, but not impossible, right now.
Players have to have residency in BC to play in the BCHL at age 16. Alex Newhook is from Newfoundland, but he was able to play in Victoria because he had a family member (aunt? Grandma? Can't remember) that lived in Victoria. Otherwise kids can't come to the BCHL from other provinces until they are in their 18-year-old season.
They want to draw players AWAY from the WHL, which they have done so with regularity in recent years. There has been some high-end talent that has gone the BCHL/NCAA route after being high WHL draft selections.
The BCHL decoupled itself from Hockey Canada because they want to create a "super" Junior A League. They want to compete with USHL teams. They also want to be able to recruit players from coast to coast, something that is difficult, but not impossible, right now.
Players have to have residency in BC to play in the BCHL at age 16. Alex Newhook is from Newfoundland, but he was able to play in Victoria because he had a family member (aunt? Grandma? Can't remember) that lived in Victoria. Otherwise kids can't come to the BCHL from other provinces until they are in their 18-year-old season.
Skinnyjimmy08
WorldTraveler
- Mar 30, 2012
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Ya it's definately both ways for what the OP is asking... BCHL wants nothing to do with WHL and the WHL wants absolutely nothing to do with BCHL... Let them keep doing their own thing. Both have been successful leagues
Junior A is still a step down. The Vees would never be able to compete with the upper echelon dub teams.
.Hard pass.
.Hard pass.
The Vees do not want to join the WHL. They are a dominant force at the Junior A level and they want to keep it that way. I can understand why people would think that Penticton would be a great spot, but I can assure you it will never, ever happen.
BE Friend
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2021
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Minds can change quickly with the lure of extra profits being dangled. Unless the contract with the city arena precludes any other hockey users, never ever is a hard statement to make. VIC PG and KEL have BCHL teams already. Does the WHL and BCHL have a gentlemans agreement to stay away? BCHL have certainly become more professional with the skills and education road they've picked vs the old days. Owners love that expansion fee money.
Profits aren't an issue for the Vees. They averaged 3,100 fans a game this season. Their owner is also stupidly rich, he doesn't need any extra money in his pocket. Contrary to the vast majority of extremely wealthy people, their owner isn't greedy. He's genuinely a great human.
As for Kelowna/Victoria/PG, the Kelowna BCHL team is in West Kelowna. Whereas the Rockets arena is right downtown Kelowna. The Victoria Grizzlies arena is basically in Langford, whereas the Royals arena is downtown Victoria. The Spruce Kings arena is downtown-ish, but it's also very small. Not that the Cougars have done well with attendance in their history.
There isn't another rink in Penticton where a WHL team could play, or where the Vees could play if they got kicked out of the SOEC. Fans love their team in Penticton. They dominate every year. That wouldn't happen in the WHL because you can't recruit whoever you want like you can in the BCHL.
I am as confident as can be in saying that the WHL will not expand to Penticton.
Isaac Nootin
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2017
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What did I tell you? The BCHL is now an independent league, and can recruit players from across the country. I can forsee a lot of Eastern-Canada kids moving to the BCHL at 16-years old now.
superdeluxe
NAFO
What did I tell you? The BCHL is now an independent league, and can recruit players from across the country. I can forsee a lot of Eastern-Canada kids moving to the BCHL at 16-years old now.
Would BCHL kids have an option of playing in the whl?
I wonder if this is actually going to help the WHL get more BC-born players.
Say you're a relatively-high draft pick in the WHL, like a late second rounder. You want to go the NCAA route and had plans on playing in the BCHL. As of now, BCHL teams can only have two 16-year-olds on their roster. What if these not-quite top tier level of BC-born players are now pushed out of the BCHL because teams are looking to Ontario/Quebec/Maritimes for elite 16-year-olds?
jetsmooseice
Let Chevy Cook
- Feb 20, 2020
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What did I tell you? The BCHL is now an independent league, and can recruit players from across the country. I can forsee a lot of Eastern-Canada kids moving to the BCHL at 16-years old now.
Why would they move across the country at 16 to play in the BCHL, though? What does the BCHL give them that they can't get from leagues closer to home, including the USHL?
Also, I'm curious about this super junior-A league trajectory that the BCHL is headed towards. It sounds kind of like a junior A WHL that that they want to establish.
I take it that the BCHL wants to entice some teams in the region (I'm assuming Alberta is a lock, but possibly even MB/SK?) to break away from their existing leagues and join in. But that seems like a hard sell. A team like Brooks in the AJHL already has the pick of the litter when it comes to recruitment, it's hard to see what's in it for them to break away and go to the BCHL. Or would it be the also-ran AJHL teams that feel like they'd have an advantage by switching to the BCHL? e.g. Drayton Valley switches leagues and suddenly it has access to a calibre of player from outside Alberta that it never had access to before?
BE Friend
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2021
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Big news. So another dagger for Hockey Canada / BC Hockey but thankfully not for the usual crappy news lately. Very illuminating FAQ doc here , BCHL FAQ
Was unaware of the Pay to Play issue. They will phase this out going forward.
I might think this would break what ever off the record or gentlemen agreement was in place between BCHL and CHL. Education heavy marketing might sway alot of parents with talented kids making a decision.
HF - MODS might need to add another tab to the OTHER LEAGUES.
Was unaware of the Pay to Play issue. They will phase this out going forward.
I might think this would break what ever off the record or gentlemen agreement was in place between BCHL and CHL. Education heavy marketing might sway alot of parents with talented kids making a decision.
HF - MODS might need to add another tab to the OTHER LEAGUES.
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jetsmooseice
Let Chevy Cook
- Feb 20, 2020
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It's interesting to see how tempted people are by the Jr. A-NCAA model.
The CHL has a pretty good value proposition, you play junior and go pro, but if you don't make it to the next level, you get a year of post-sec (I assume Canadian, but does it have to be?) for every year in junior. The idea is you go to school after your pro hockey aspirations have ended.
So what exactly is it about the Jr. A-NCAA model that is more appealing? The idea that you go to school while you are still in the hockey developmental system of NCAA hockey? I guess that is nice, so if you finish a few years of college hockey you have a degree at 23 or whatever and move on to the workforce if you don't make it to the pros. You get to pick which college you play for so that's a plus if you don't want to move 1,500 km away to whichever WHL team happened to draft you. Is it one of those things, or is it something else that I'm missing?
I believe the CHL Education Package is roughly $8500 per year that can be used towards schooling. Whether that's tuition, books, residence, etc. It does expire 18 months after that player is out of the WHL, so they have essentially one season where they can try and play pro to see if they want to go that route, or if pro hockey isn't right for them (at that time) so they can go to school for x amount of years.
As for why the NCAA route is appealing, the education is a big part of it. Let's not pretend like a four-year degree from Yale isn't extremely attractive on a resume. But from a hockey perspective, it gives players an additional four years to develop their on-ice skill. I'm going to preface this as someone who prefers the CHL route.
Say Player A was drafted out of the WHL in their first draft-eligible season, so in 2023's sake it would be an 05-born player. He's a 6th round pick after a solid but not spectacular season. Because he's drafted out of the CHL, the NHL team that picked him would have two seasons to decide if they want to give him an ELC. Of course, it's not as if his NHL dreams are finished if he doesn't get one by then, but the pressure is on for that player to perform over the next two seasons to try and get one. If he doesn't get one within those two years, he needs to have a huge 20-year-old season and hope that another NHL team gives him a shot with an ELC, or else he has to grind his way through on AHL/ECHL contracts, or go to a Canadian University. There have not been a lot of players to make it to the NHL from Canadian Universities.
Now Player B was taken a few picks later, out of the BCHL. He almost certainly has an NCAA commitment already, but unless he exploded offensively that season there's a solid chance he would be back playing in the BCHL again in his 18-year-old year so he could be the go-to guy for his team. Now he goes to the NCAA in his 19-year old season and performs just fine. Decent minutes, decent production, nothing huge. While Player A is sweating at this time, hoping he gets a contract from his draft team, Player B has three more seasons to keep playing and try to earn that contract. There's likely other players on his NCAA team that graduate or sign professionally to create bigger opportunities for him, and by the team he's finished his third year in the NCAA, he might be ready to play professionally. That's four years after he's been drafted, and the team that took him still has his rights, whereas Player A is now graduated from junior hockey, and either on an AHL/ECHL contract, or finishing his first year at a Canadian University.
Player B may not have been ready to play professional two years after he was drafted, but with two (or three) additional years to get stronger in the NCAA, now he's ready. While Player A needs to show his draft team within two seasons that he's ready.
Both routes have their merits. I firmly believe that elite, elite talent should go to the CHL. I think the CHL better prepares kids for a professional schedule. But kids who aren't high-end talents at that same age can be better suited by going to the NCAA, because it gives them additional time to get to that level.
There is also the fact that players drafted out of Junior A can go play professionally immediately after signing. For example, a guy who was a first-round pick out of the BCHL can go to the NCAA for one season and then sign with his NHL team, and is eligible to play in the AHL at 19 years old. But players drafted out of the CHL have to return to junior for their 19-year-old season if they aren't ready for the NHL.
jetsmooseice
Let Chevy Cook
- Feb 20, 2020
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Thank you for that excellent and thorough explanation, it certainly illuminates some of the issues at play for those players who have to decide on their path.
JUSTGIROUXIT
Registered User
- Apr 16, 2020
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What's up with PG attendance? I went to a few camps there in my hay day (from MB) The rink was fairly new at the time, and seemed like a decent facility to me, esp in comparison to some out this way. I didn't really get a chance to get a feel for the city or to get used to the smell lol, but always thought it should be a hockey hotbed.
PG is historically bad and really far away from other WHL teams so it's hard for say Kamloops or Kelowna fans to drive up there for a weekend game.
Also they have 72000 people but no one else close by.
Not only have they been historically bad, but the club went 10+ years blowing off their fans. The original owner was an arrogant jerk who had his son and daughter-in-law in senior positions of the club, and they soured relationships with the local business community and the fans. People got out of the habit of going to games and that just never changed.
It's a case study of what happens when the community doesn't feel a close connection to a team. There was a time when not going to a hockey game was unthinkable. In PG, in the late 90s, the Cougars were not just the talk of the town, they were the embodiment of the town. Team owners forget that connection at their peril.
It’s definitely got better over the past decade. We were last in attendance about ten years ago with several game with less than 1000 people. With a new ownership group around Dan Hamhuis, decent marketing and new management, there was decent growth, but even the new management struggled to make the team competitive, so the small spark never turned into real hype around the team. Still, pre-Covid attendance was at 2700, which is roughly 50% of capacity. What’s encouraging is that we’ve already reached that number again in 2022-23, while other markets (and leagues around the world) are still below pre-Covid levels. That shows that people do start to show up once the team is somewhat competitive and there’s some draft talent to see. Bedard even sold out the arena.
So I haven’t given up hope because I know people in the city do care about hockey. But it’s tough for an organization that struggles to convince prospects to play for them, doesn’t get visiting fans and has to compete with the BCHL.
BE Friend
Registered User
- Jul 16, 2021
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Should be a good market. Shows how well KEL and KAM are managed to have the consistant winning years vs PG. Yes coming up on 30yrs and pretty much bupkis for success. Player success- yes, def gems in the bigs. Once a team gets a rep in a city it takes a LONG time to get rid of it,
Will be curious to see what will happen this year. They got to beat up on VIC and SPO weak teams that skewed the numbers at bit in 23. Those teams will be better, plus 5 heavy games with a decent Wenatchee team so nothing will be easy.
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