White Sox considering leaving Guaranteed Rate Field

[KevFu]

75% of owners have to approve a move.

75% of owners aren't going to concede the whole market to the Cubs.

You'd think that... but that should be the #1 decision on the Athletics leaving Oakland (not conceding the Bay Area to the Giants; just like the owners rejected the Giants moving to St. Pete!

And Houston got a replacement team once they had a stadium.

Right, but Oakland and Chicago won't be able to get "Second teams BACK" because the Giants and Cubs would have territorial rights (which Legally they aren't veto rights, but in practice they are).

Chicagoland has 9.5 million people. Nashville's metro area is just over 2 million

30% of Chicagoland is a bigger market than Nashville.

Don't get me wrong, I think Nashville will be a good expansion market. But no one is buying a team from the 3rd largest market to move them out. Even is bad as they've been for the last 15 years, they're still 15th in Forbes valuations.

I agree with your logic 100% I just want it applied in the Bay Area, too.

Because while Chicagoland is 9.5 million people, if you extend out about 2 hours in every direction for the "Sports Market boundaries" that we don't have good wikipedia tables for...

There's very very few people between Chicagoland and Champagne, Bloomington, Peoria and Iowa added to the market; and Milwaukee's market begins when Chicagoland ends, and Detroit's market begins on the east.

While the same thing for the Giants/A's, brings you to a grand total of like 18-22 million people inn places like Sacramento, San Jose, Stockton, Reno, Modesto, Davis, Monterrey, Santa Cruz, Napa, etc, etc.


This is where MLB needs common-sense leadership to orchestrate the best solution for MLB.
A new Oakland A's with a new owner need to remain in the Bay Area; and probably ditto the White Sox; while current owners are free to take their rosters to new cities with new identities.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

You'd think that... but that should be the #1 decision on the Athletics leaving Oakland (not conceding the Bay Area to the Giants; just like the owners rejected the Giants moving to St. Pete!

100%

Right, but Oakland and Chicago won't be able to get "Second teams BACK" because the Giants and Cubs would have territorial rights (which Legally they aren't veto rights, but in practice they are).

For sure, I said that to prove it's a bad example.

I agree with your logic 100% I just want it applied in the Bay Area, too.

Because while Chicagoland is 9.5 million people, if you extend out about 2 hours in every direction for the "Sports Market boundaries" that we don't have good wikipedia tables for...

There's very very few people between Chicagoland and Champagne, Bloomington, Peoria and Iowa added to the market; and Milwaukee's market begins when Chicagoland ends, and Detroit's market begins on the east.

While the same thing for the Giants/A's, brings you to a grand total of like 18-22 million people inn places like Sacramento, San Jose, Stockton, Reno, Modesto, Davis, Monterrey, Santa Cruz, Napa, etc, etc.


This is where MLB needs common-sense leadership to orchestrate the best solution for MLB.
A new Oakland A's with a new owner need to remain in the Bay Area; and probably ditto the White Sox; while current owners are free to take their rosters to new cities with new identities.

The big difference is the Giants & A's don't have equal rights to the market. If they did, the A's would've been in San Jose 10-15 years ago. The White Sox can go wherever they want in the market.

Also, the 2 hours thing is pretty irrelevant in the White Sox case. Their biggest issue is drawing on school nights, higher population in Champaign isn't helping that.

 

[aqib]

Could they build on the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave?

 

[KevFu]

100%

For sure, I said that to prove it's a bad example.


The big difference is the Giants & A's don't have equal rights to the market. If they did, the A's would've been in San Jose 10-15 years ago. The White Sox can go wherever they want in the market.

Also, the 2 hours thing is pretty irrelevant in the White Sox case. Their biggest issue is drawing on school nights, higher population in Champaign isn't helping that.

I think you and I are really close to the same page on this.

The financial power of sports teams really comes (or came, depending on how RSN stuff plays out) more from TV over the last 30 years than from the ticket sales. The richest teams are the teams with the largest populations within their TV footprint, not their city markets.

IE - #10 MSA Arizona vs #11 Boston. Rest of Arizona is 2.5 million; Rest of NEW ENGLAND is like 13 million. Red Sox are richer because the 13 million on NESN subscribers.

In otherwords, the Chicago market is exactly as big as everyone thinks, but everyone else's market is bigger than everyone thinks because it stretches beyond MSAs and CSAs; every inch is divided into TV territory.

I'm actually living proof of this concept. Rochester is closer to TOR, DET, PIT, and CLE than to New York City. Philly is actually closer, too. But Rochester is the New York TV market, so I got Mets and Yankees games growing up. Because of how congested NYC would be at 5 pm, it would actually be faster for me to drive from my childhood home to a weeknight MLB game in Cincinnati or Baltimore than a Mets home game.


It's because of this (And because of the age of Wrigley) that the Cubs will not become as financially powerful if the Sox left than the Giants would become if the A's left. (And it wouldn't happen overnight, I'm not saying Sox fans will embrace the Cubs. I'm saying their GRANDKIDS would embrace the Cubs not knowing anything else... just like how all of New England is Red Sox fans because the Boston Braves left in 1952.

 

[CTHabsfan]

just like how all of New England is Red Sox fans because the Boston Braves left in 1952.

Connecticut is part of New England. There are more Yankees fans than Red Sox fans in Connecticut.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Aging owner. Kids probably don’t want to keep the team. Club prices are high. Sell and whatever happens it isn’t their issue anymore.

 

[KevFu]

Connecticut is part of New England. There are more Yankees fans than Red Sox fans in Connecticut.

I type enough words without having to add every specific parameter of the estimate...

I'm a sports-first guy, so I don't care about the textbook definition of New England. Half of Connecticut gets NESN, the other half is part of the New York market.

"All of Sports New England"

 

[CTHabsfan]

I type enough words without having to add every specific parameter of the estimate...

I'm a sports-first guy, so I don't care about the textbook definition of New England. Half of Connecticut gets NESN, the other half is part of the New York market.

"All of Sports New England"

Yes, I can understand why typing "most' rather than "all" would be difficult. By the way, I get NESN, YES, and SNY.

 

[JMCx4]

Could they build on the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave?

NBC Sports Chicago is tugging on that thread ,,,

White Sox at Soldier Field? Report says team is exploring Chicago relocation options​

 

[KevFu]

Yes, I can understand why typing "most' rather than "all" would be difficult. By the way, I get NESN, YES, and SNY.

What's blacked out? You get all three baseball teams?

 

[Brodie]

Could they build on the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave?

no because part of what they want are the same additional revenue streams the Bears are chasing but it is not at all coincidental that they are doing this as the Bears prep to leave... they think they have all the leverage with the city now because of it.

When Reinsdorf bought the Sox, you could've made a solid argument that both Chicago MLB teams were equally popular and a truly geographic divide existed between them. If anything, the Sox were more popular because they'd been more successful over the years. In the past 40 years, though, the Cubs have been able to capture more new fans via exposure through WGN as well as selling both the historical romance of Wrigley, the curse, etc. and the unique positionality of Wrigleyville as a secondary entertainment district. Suburbanization has atrophied the strong geographic ties... while your Greatest Gen grandpa and Boomer dad might've walked from Canaryville to Comiskey, both the Sox and the Cubs are equally physically remote to kids from Naperville and there's a strong pull factor toward Cubs fandom. You're only likely to become a big Sox fan if you have strong family connections to the team or to be a bit of a contrarian. Meanwhile those South Side neighborhoods and the adjacent Southland burbs are where most of the population drain in Chicago is coming from, neighborhoods on the North and Northwest sides are booming. It is not like the Sox can just get in on a plot of land in Arlington Heights because there simply aren't enough Sox fans in that vicinity to support them. There may be some argument for the Sox existing in the West burbs, a major growth area in the past 30 years, but the truth is they need the city to make any sense in the market and the loss of the Bears makes this an opportune moment to start in with the threats.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

NBC Sports Chicago is tugging on that thread ,,,

White Sox at Soldier Field? Report says team is exploring Chicago relocation options​

To paraphrase Betteridge, any headline that ends with a question mark can be answered with the word, "no."

The UC-adjacent West Side option might hold some water.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

So what is this now? 6 new cities (including 2 expansion cities) for baseball if the locals won't pay up for a new/refurbished stadium. Pretty easy to call the owners' bluff when there aren't enough new cities willing to pony up. Oakland, Tampa Bay, Milwaukee and Chicago - where will they all move to...I know Oakland is probably moving to Las Vegas...and major league baseball wants to add expansion cities?! Good luck with that!

 

[Melrose Munch]

So what is this now? 6 new cities (including 2 expansion cities) for baseball if the locals won't pay up for a new/refurbished stadium. Pretty easy to call the owners' bluff when there aren't enough new cities willing to pony up. Oakland, Tampa Bay, Milwaukee and Chicago - where will they all move to...I know Oakland is probably moving to Las Vegas...and major league baseball wants to add expansion cities?! Good luck with that!

If this continues, they will be the least popular sport at the end of the decade. You now see why Bettman is fighting so hard for Phoenix.

 

[CTHabsfan]

What's blacked out? You get all three baseball teams?

Nothing is blacked out, I get all three teams.

 

[aqib]

no because part of what they want are the same additional revenue streams the Bears are chasing but it is not at all coincidental that they are doing this as the Bears prep to leave... they think they have all the leverage with the city now because of it.

Assume the Bears leave what is the plan for the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave? We know the plan to get a second NFL team isn't going to happen. Are they going to tear it down and reuse the site or try and turn it into something else?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Assume the Bears leave what is the plan for the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave? We know the plan to get a second NFL team isn't going to happen. Are they going to tear it down and reuse the site or try and turn it into something else?

Nobody knows, essentially. Refurbishment ideas were floated by Lightfoot that basically elicited a universal lolnope reaction, and Johnson I don't think has really delved too deep on the issue as he's got bigger issues on his plate compared to a giant and soon-to-be-empty empty flying saucer on the lakefront.

It'll probably be a rarely used concert venue.

 

[KevFu]

Assume the Bears leave what is the plan for the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave? We know the plan to get a second NFL team isn't going to happen. Are they going to tear it down and reuse the site or try and turn it into something else?

The current proposal is to remove the front half of all the field-level sections, raise the level of the field and make it a soccer-specific stadium for the Chicago Fire...

Obviously the Chicago Fire plan hasn't been "approved" like definitely what would happen. That's just one proposal.

 

[KevFu]

So what is this now? 6 new cities (including 2 expansion cities) for baseball if the locals won't pay up for a new/refurbished stadium. Pretty easy to call the owners' bluff when there aren't enough new cities willing to pony up. Oakland, Tampa Bay, Milwaukee and Chicago - where will they all move to...I know Oakland is probably moving to Las Vegas...and major league baseball wants to add expansion cities?! Good luck with that!

As someone in favor of MLB expansion (and a creative solution for four leagues of 8-teams each, returning to what baseball used to be in the 1950s but with a Western and Southern league)...

I'm worried about whining teams complaining about stadiums now and reducing the demand from expansion cities.

The lack of leadership from MLB makes me think that they WON'T be smart enough to orchestrate musical chairs for the betterment of all franchises and current cities...

A's owner wants to leave Oakland for Vegas, LET HIM but use that as one expansion slot and find an owner Oakland will work with for Howard Terminal (And negotiate a branding deal so the A's roster becomes the Las Vegas _________s; and the Oakland A's get a new roster).

Now you've got Nashville, Montreal, Charlotte, Portland for one expansion team, the Chicago White Sox and or Milwaukee Brewers.

 

[Teemu]

NBC Sports Chicago is tugging on that thread ,,,

White Sox at Soldier Field? Report says team is exploring Chicago relocation options​

I, for one, welcome the Arlington Heights White Sox

 

[aqib]

As someone in favor of MLB expansion (and a creative solution for four leagues of 8-teams each, returning to what baseball used to be in the 1950s but with a Western and Southern league)...

I'm worried about whining teams complaining about stadiums now and reducing the demand from expansion cities.

The lack of leadership from MLB makes me think that they WON'T be smart enough to orchestrate musical chairs for the betterment of all franchises and current cities...

A's owner wants to leave Oakland for Vegas, LET HIM but use that as one expansion slot and find an owner Oakland will work with for Howard Terminal (And negotiate a branding deal so the A's roster becomes the Las Vegas _________s; and the Oakland A's get a new roster).

Now you've got Nashville, Montreal, Charlotte, Portland for one expansion team, the Chicago White Sox and or Milwaukee Brewers.

I remember 20+ years ago Peter Gammons was on ESPN he said the plan was to eventually have 4, 4 team divisions in each league. Not sure if that's still on the radar.

Regarding Oakland, if there was a deal that MLB liked or an owner ready to buy the team and make a deal they wouldn't let the A's move. They would do what they did with the Giants and reject the move and force a sale to a local group.

 

[KevFu]

I remember 20+ years ago Peter Gammons was on ESPN he said the plan was to eventually have 4, 4 team divisions in each league. Not sure if that's still on the radar.

That's likely, but not great. Zip code being the biggest factor in the pennant race is dumb.

The history of baseball was two 8-team leagues and everyone was cool with it. It was a fair pennant race because you played the same schedule (22 vs everyone).

Divisions came about because of adding teams and more than two time zones. So have three leagues that are ETZ/CTZ combined, and one league for the West and everyone wins. 22 is too many to play against 7 teams only, but 16 or 18 isn't. And that leaves 48 or 36 games to play 24 different opponents, aka half of them in one series (either 4 or 3 games, take your pick).

A lot more games in your time zone and a lot more games that matter to your pennant race. Everyone is happy.

Regarding Oakland, if there was a deal that MLB liked or an owner ready to buy the team and make a deal they wouldn't let the A's move. They would do what they did with the Giants and reject the move and force a sale to a local group.

I think that's a lot of misplaced trust in Manfred, who's done a ton of very stupid things and like three things well/correctly.

The A's don't have a stadium in Oakland because the A's kept moving the goalposts and asking for more and more. They want a $12 BILLION project in Oakland, but a $1.5 billion project in Las Vegas.

And the City and team are only $36m apart NOW, with a deadline set by MLB of January of 2024.


Manfred wants out of Oakland because he sees the CITY as a dying market, but the market isn't just the city, it's all of the Bay Area, and leaving the Giants alone in that mega-region is a huge mistake he's too stupid to see.

(Every indication is that he wants to do neither the "Gammons" plan you mentioned or my four-league intelligent solution, but to organize baseball like the NBA, with Eastern/Western radical realignment; which is also a really dumb idea and bad for business).

 

[Voight]

Assume the Bears leave what is the plan for the Soldier Field site once the Bears leave? We know the plan to get a second NFL team isn't going to happen. Are they going to tear it down and reuse the site or try and turn it into something else?

They should tear it down to erase the hack job monstrosity they did on it 20 years ago.

As for OP I doubt the MLB would OK a Sox relocation.

 

[Brodie]

Soldier Field is a totally illogical place for a baseball team to play anyway, you'd have all the same issues with the site that the Bears do amplified by ten because you'd need to use it 80 times a year instead of 9. The best use-cases for it is either letting it stay as an occasional concert/special event venue as it was for the first half of its existence or renovating it into a smaller venue that can accommodate the Fire while still remaining viable as an alternative to the Bears stadium for the top end musical acts coming into town.

As for the Sox, I increasingly think this is all just part of a long term plan by Reinsdorf to get funding for a stadium near the United Center that can then be developed into a faux-Wrigleyville entertainment district, creating a new megadevelopment on the scale of Lincoln Yards and the 78 while also securing a sports book for the new Sox park. Get all of this permitted and funded today and then his heirs can offload the teams when he dies and retain the real estate investment for maximum profit.

 

[daver]

I would be leaving a place called Guaranteed Rate Field too. How soon before a team plays out of BetRivers Park where kids under 12 can bet on the over/under for free!