WC: Which tournament is more important and more interesting?
- Thread starter Bear12Good
- Start date
First of all you probably don't keep up with the world cup of basketball, the only team that doesn't bring it's best is the US. Secondly, it doesn't matter how big hockey is in china, no one cares. Winter sports haven't taken off in china, winter olympics will still be there, it's about the reputation, the venue, and the chance to enter the international scope. You keep speculating that I'm speculating there will be some growth, there won't and there doesn't need to be. If the NHL can prove this tournament is a great venue to build international image, china will host. Hosts never need to qualify so you wasted another statement there. Being Canadian of course you assume that Europeans love the US time frame where an 8 o'clock game might be seen at 3 AM. Plenty of internationals will fill the seats, including some Chinese fans and many Canadian fans would fly to Siberia to see team Canada. Could TV viewership be difficult? Perhaps, but China has 6 times the population of the US where hockey is very very much a niche sport, the market opportunity would outweigh risk, and we live in global times, all corporations are adapting and people must adapt accordingly. If you would rather not watch hockey at all than watch an 8 AM final then good for you. If china hosts, the games will be on CCTV 5 and with limited channel selection there will be 50 chinese viewers seeing this new spectacle for every one stubborn Canadian who doesn't want to wake up. Why is Vegas getting an NHL team and it seems Quebec City isn't? Size of potential markets, they matter, a lot.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Obviously. If the United States doesn't bring close to its best roster, the tournament isn't best on best. Poor effort on your part, unless you consider the World Championships to be best on best prior to the 80s because pretty much every country other than Canada has its best.
And bribes. The Chinese aren't going to bribe the NHL to bring the World Cup there, and they aren't even going to bid. The Olympics brings a certain prestige to the country (in the eyes of many) and people will support it in such a country. The NHL World Cup has no such prestige, and the vast majority don't even know the NHL. Why would a country try to bring in a tournament that its own citizens don't care about?
My speculation is based on having lived in China for years, knowing many Chinese people and living with one today. Yours seems to be based on a fantasy that because there are so many Chinese people they will for some reason be willing to waste money on something that they don't even want.
A massive 'if' that obviously won't work in such a short span. Hockey is only cared about in a small number of countries, and this tournament has already been run seven times with minimal "international image" enhancement. It is cared about in Canada. Not much elsewhere. This won't change significantly in ten years if it hasn't changed significantly since 1976.
Fair enough on your part.
Thank you for not even understanding my point, but then proceeding to make it for me. Europeans don't watch this tournament in decent numbers as is, which shows how timezones will affect viewership.
You don't know Chinese people very well if you think that they will purchase expensive tickets to watch a sport they don't even like. As for Canadians flying in large numbers to China for this tournament, good luck with that. There will always be some, but not enough to make up for the losses the NHL would endure from all of the empty seats not being filled with Chinese people.
Despite being a niche sport, hockey still has millions of American fans, and of course this is after nearly a century of development within the country. Yet World/Canada Cup ratings have never been big to this point, and likely won't be this time. In China the number of hockey fans is certainly in the thousands, probably on the very low end. There can be 1.5 billion Chinese, but that doesn't matter if they are completely uninterested in hockey - which they are.
Once again, there can be many Chinese people in the country, but that has little bearing if they don't actually care about hockey. It's also pretty funny to consider one of the major networks giving up hours of TV time for a sport that citizens don't even know or like. If you want to speculate that the tournament could reasonably be put there in maybe 30 years, sure, there would be a small amount of potential. If you think that it could be there in just over a decade, there are only two factors at play: 1) the NHL is incredibly naive about the Chinese market and just considers it "big", which is what most people who fantasize about the Chinese market do, or 2) the sport undergoes an amazing, unprecedented level of growth. Perhaps #1 is possible at least.
First of all you have a hard time understanding contingencies, my only contingency had nothing to do with growth, it was that the tournament prove itself in the next few editions or even this one to be a prestigious event, nothing to do with development in the country. Why would a country that doesn't ski or skate want to bring in a tournament all about those such sports. Prove yourself to be a valuable venue and you'll get a bid, you may doubt the NHL's ability to do so, that is the definition of a contingency.
No I said you were speculating on the meaning of what I was saying. Again the inability to read on your part. You've got a Canadian flag but it seems it might be better for me to post in chinese so you can comprehend what I'm actually saying. And I can post in chinese by the way, I've done everything you've said except marry a Chinese girl(if that's what you mean)...if you again, reading, very hard I know, read what I wrote I said "some" Chinese people will fill the stands because "some" most definitely will. There are, believe it or not, some hockey fans who will travel to games in china, I'm not claiming there will be X amount but for the ones who go it'd be a great experience.
Well I'm sorry but your massive "if" is my contingency, and furthermore the tournament has been held twice, not consistently and definitely not consistently since 1976.
It's not that I don't understand, I disagree. If you read forums around here, most of the Europeans like the idea but not the format. You run it the right way, and do a good job marketing it and people will watch it. You will dismiss this as a impossibility. I say, it's extremely improbable, but it's been done before. I'm not saying it will, but contingent on the idea that it will, I'm saying the aforementioned is possible.
I don't know how to address the next statement because you just kinda rambled...some of the facts aren't pin point but I don't care to nitpick.
If you didn't know, CCTV is state run television. If they spent a lot of money building arenas and hauling in top athletes they will most definitely play it on their TV station. TV space for sports in china is not a ridiculously competitive space, perhaps you'd be competing with NBL games, CBA games, and the newsdesk. Also on CCTV priority goes to national team sports so anything with team china on it will get air time.
Your last 2 contingencies don't match mine. Mine is merely that they prove this tournament to be a valuable asset to international identity. I never said this is likely, I don't think it will happen, nevertheless, if it does, there's also the possibility of partnership with china. Basically, I have a lot of tiao jian (there's your chinese maybe you can comprehend that) to qualify a potential best outcome.
No I said you were speculating on the meaning of what I was saying. Again the inability to read on your part. You've got a Canadian flag but it seems it might be better for me to post in chinese so you can comprehend what I'm actually saying. And I can post in chinese by the way, I've done everything you've said except marry a Chinese girl(if that's what you mean)...if you again, reading, very hard I know, read what I wrote I said "some" Chinese people will fill the stands because "some" most definitely will. There are, believe it or not, some hockey fans who will travel to games in china, I'm not claiming there will be X amount but for the ones who go it'd be a great experience.
Well I'm sorry but your massive "if" is my contingency, and furthermore the tournament has been held twice, not consistently and definitely not consistently since 1976.
It's not that I don't understand, I disagree. If you read forums around here, most of the Europeans like the idea but not the format. You run it the right way, and do a good job marketing it and people will watch it. You will dismiss this as a impossibility. I say, it's extremely improbable, but it's been done before. I'm not saying it will, but contingent on the idea that it will, I'm saying the aforementioned is possible.
I don't know how to address the next statement because you just kinda rambled...some of the facts aren't pin point but I don't care to nitpick.
If you didn't know, CCTV is state run television. If they spent a lot of money building arenas and hauling in top athletes they will most definitely play it on their TV station. TV space for sports in china is not a ridiculously competitive space, perhaps you'd be competing with NBL games, CBA games, and the newsdesk. Also on CCTV priority goes to national team sports so anything with team china on it will get air time.
Your last 2 contingencies don't match mine. Mine is merely that they prove this tournament to be a valuable asset to international identity. I never said this is likely, I don't think it will happen, nevertheless, if it does, there's also the possibility of partnership with china. Basically, I have a lot of tiao jian (there's your chinese maybe you can comprehend that) to qualify a potential best outcome.
It's not a true international tournament, but let's be real: none of the excluded countries had a shot at winning. The same 6 nations have claimed the last 15 Olympic medals.
No but if you want to grow the game, but let's be real even they admit it's about growing the brand not hockey, you don't do it by excluding countries.
Plus you never know when a Belarus upset will happen. And Slovakia and Switzerland have beaten Canada. In 2010 the Slovaks pushed Canada about as hard as anybody.
They don't even want the fake teams to make the knockouts so it's not about anything other than having as few non NHL players as possible.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
China doesn't care about hosting the World Cup of Hockey. They don't even care about hockey. They care about the Olympics and the prestige it brings. They will absolutely care about Chinese hockey during the 2022 Olympics, and at no other time. There is no prestige at all in hosting a World Cup of Hockey.
If the NHL ever held a World Cup of Hockey regularly every 4 years, the first 20 years (at least) would be spent alternating between NA and Europe, and even then, there would be hockey countries that couldn't host it during that time.
Pleasure of you to join us. A little late isn't, considering that everything you said has already been stated multiple times and addressed multiple times. *yawns* I personally preferred Jack Slater, he at least tried to back things up.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
And Slater is right, no matter how many times you address it. It ain't happening. China only wants events that will either enhance its international reputation, or give its citizens enjoyment in a sport they care about. The Olympics and the FIFA World Cup fulfill the reputation criteria, and tournaments for sports like figure skating, swimming and basketball fulfill the enjoyment criteria.
And the NHL has no reason to give its World Cup to China either. Makes no sense on a million levels. Because the Chinese people don't care in the first place.
So the NHL doesn't want the World Cup in China, and China doesn't want the World Cup. It's not complicated.
The concept of contingencies isn't complicated either. Unfortunately you don't seem to get it.
Nothing is ever complicated when you oversimplify.
Me: Contingency 1, IF the NHL can build an international reputation enhancing event, Result 1, China will want to host it.
Everyone who can't read English: b-b-b-but the likelihood of the NHL succeeding is small!!! b-b-b-but IF IT DOESN'T enhance reputation (hence the contingency) the Chinese people don't care enough about it to make it viable!!!
...I thought the reading comprehension on the KHL forums was bad...
Feel free to reply if you get both my argument and the condition it is contingent on, if you just want to restate the unrelated arguments you have already been making then well, it's your time that's being wasted not mine
BayStreetBully
Registered User
Agreed. Because that reason to invest and promote would be if hockey can produce a gold medal at the Olympics. Otherwise, nope.
China sees Olympic gold medals as a way to enhance its international reputation, much the same way East Germany did back then. The reason China's suddenly become relevant in the Winter Olympics the last 20 years is because they invested in sports that would easily produce medals, preferably gold- short track speed skating, freestyle skiing and figure skating. With some investment, China can produce elite athletes in those sports within a few years.
Hockey is not a sport where you can fast-track your way to greatness. It would take China decades to even get to the level of Germany or Norway, no matter how hard they tried. You can't even produce one great player, as in skiing or skating. You need a whole team of them. It's just not worth the time or money to invest in a sport that will bring China no extra glory.
China will invest in curling, bobsledding, heck every other Winter Olympic sport before it invests in hockey. Even for the 2022 Olympic, I predict they will naturalize a bunch of foreigners to play for their hockey team, as that's the easiest thing to do.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
The concept of contingencies isn't complicated either. Unfortunately you don't seem to get it.
Nothing is ever complicated when you oversimplify.
Me: Contingency 1, IF the NHL can build an international reputation enhancing event, Result 1, China will want to host it.
Everyone who can't read English: b-b-b-but the likelihood of the NHL succeeding is small!!! b-b-b-but IF IT DOESN'T enhance reputation (hence the contingency) the Chinese people don't care enough about it to make it viable!!!
...I thought the reading comprehension on the KHL forums was bad...
Feel free to reply if you get both my argument and the condition it is contingent on, if you just want to restate the unrelated arguments you have already been making then well, it's your time that's being wasted not mine
Your contingency will never happen. Hockey is small potatoes in international sports. Some countries and regions like it, others never will. The NHL may succeed in building a reputational event within the world of hockey- Canada, northern US, Scandinavia and some East European countries. That's not going to interest China.
They want events that have prestige in mainstream Europe- UK, France, Germany, Italy. And events that Asians care about- in Korea, Japan. And all of the USA, not just pockets of it. Events that the whole world cares about and will watch on tv. Not just millions of people, but billions. What events have that prestige? As mentioned- the Summer Olympics, the Winter Olympics, and the FIFA World Cup. (And yes, the Winter Olympics counts, even if half the world doesn't watch. The winter nations just so happen to be the very same countries that China wants to enhance its image in).
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Crying that your ridiculous speculation is a contingency doesn't make it exempt from criticism, particularly when it's so obviously flawed. Someone can come and speculate that the NHL will hold the 2020 World Cup on Mars if humans can reach Mars by 2020 and if the Martians have lots of money, and they should expect the same reaction. "If" isn't some magical word that excuses a poorly thought out idea from examination. Your speculating on essentially an impossibility, and absolutely nothing that has been put forward, including whining about how the poorly thought out idea is prefaced with "if", changes that.
I do agree that the ridiculous idea of the NHL holding the World Cup in China has little to do with comparing this ridiculous edition of the tournament with the IIHF's tournament, so on my end this will be left for another thread.
Wow this reading comprehension...My argument is not the contingency. Also, the contingency in your example would be on the NHL, not the martians. Again, reading comprehension...or even just reading...
It's a 2 step proposition
1. Build a prestigious tournament
2. Extend to non-traditional markets, earning Daly's "next billion"
To build a prestigious tournament happens to be the NHL's goal, a goal backed up by the analysis of many executives. You think it's a money grab, you think it will be unsuccessful, that's irrelevant. If they succeed, an obvious first market to expand to is China. Anything about growth rate of Chinese hockey is completely irrelevant, and I honestly don't know why you keep bringing it up but I guess that's what you do when you post arguments before reading what you're replying.
BayStreetBully
Registered User
The World Cup of Hockey will NEVER be a prestigious tournament in Chinese eyes. So the Chinese will never want to host it. Does the NHL plan on forcing China to host it? No? Then your point is moot.
If you believe this, I won't try to convince you otherwise. It does not seem however that Gary Bettman figures his product will forever be irrelevant in China or he wouldn't even think to risk millions of dollars in 2022.
World Cup in China in 2020? If they really figured China is a market, why would they do it like this when they can just piggyback the 2022 event?
His product? That dude really must've been busy 40 years ago for at least 20 years
The NHL also isn't investing into China, it would just give its players an opportunity to participate. But more importantly, the Olympics aren't about the host country, it's a global event. Actually, the chinese could all hate this sport and it would still make sense.
Anyway, the NHL has some serious work to do before that invitational pre-season tournament has enough prestige again for a country like China to go out and try to host it.
1Gold Standard
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The next World Cup, if it happens, will again be in N. America. It will not be in Asia, it will not be in Russia or anywhere else but in N. America. I just hope next time it is without the gimmicky teams. My guess is that it will be split between 2 U.S. cities in spitting distance of the Canadian border. The exact same approach USA Hockey takes when hosting the World Junior tournament.
A product is something to be sold not something created.His product? That dude really must've been busy 40 years ago for at least 20 years
The NHL also isn't investing into China, it would just give its players an opportunity to participate. But more importantly, the Olympics aren't about the host country, it's a global event. Actually, the chinese could all hate this sport and it would still make sense.
Anyway, the NHL has some serious work to do before that invitational pre-season tournament has enough prestige again for a country like China to go out and try to host it.
Uhh...no the NHL has explicitly stated that the bid going to china changes the dynamic of discussions. I'm not sure you've been keeping up with NHL news because it's been talked about 100 times around here. The NHL loses millions every Olympics without a chance at making a dime there. It's not as simple as "letting the players go" as you say, in fact you're the first person to say that, so congrats.
This is very true, but the same is always true when you're looking to make the next billion.
1Gold Standard
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not in spitting distance, but Pittsburgh and Philly is not too far out of the way for a lot of Canadians. So, a Pennsylvania World Cup might be a decent option. Expand it to 10-12 teams that are true traditional National Teams, then I'll be back on board. The teams ranked in the top 12 at the conclusion of the 2019 World Hockey Championship are in.
This entire nonsense the NHL gave us about no time for qualifiers, therefore we get gimmicky teams is just laughable.
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