Tribute Which Half of Crosby's Career was the Best for his Legacy?

[ChaosAgent]

Well at 31 years old Sid scored 100 points AND had Selke level defensive impacts.. so still better than Toews.

Not to get into this match again, but if you look at the totality of Sid's career post 2015 and era-adjust the scoring rates, it isn't far off of Toews' early career at all.

And yeah, the 2018 playoffs and Sid's 2018-2019 season was incredible. That was peak late-career Sid.

Sid's average level from the first 8-9 years of his career was much higher though. He was 1 or 1A best player in the league almost every year. That means more to me than Penguins team awards, if we're talking about grading the individual.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Not to get into this match again, but if you look at the totality of Sid's career post 2015 and era-adjust the scoring rates, it isn't far off of Toews' early career at all.

And yeah, the 2018 playoffs and Sid's 2018-2019 season was incredible. That was peak late-career Sid.

Sid's average level from the first 8-9 years of his career was much higher though. He was 1 or 1A best player in the league almost every year. That means more to me than Penguins team awards, if we're talking about grading the individual.

He was the consensus best player in the world from 10-11 going into 17-18. The same can't be said pre injury where depending on who you asked you'd get any of crosby malkin or OV

 

[ChaosAgent]

He was the consensus best player in the world from 10-11 going into 17-18. The same can't be said pre injury where depending on who you asked you'd get any of crosby malkin or OV

2 forwards won the Hart in 2016 and 2017. They were Kane and McDavid.

I don't think Sid was the consensus best player from basically the moment McDavid entered the league.

Ovechkin's first 5 seasons are insane, so to even be neck and neck with him is a great achievement. But then he fell off and has been more of a great accumulator since.

 

[TheGuiminator]

He was the consensus best player in the world from 10-11 going into 17-18. The same can't be said pre injury where depending on who you asked you'd get any of crosby malkin or OV

You're stretching the timeframe too far, one could argue Crosby wasn't the consensus best player anymore by 2015 :

2005-06 to 2009-10 : Second to Ovechkin (except for 06-07)

2010-11 to 2014-15 : Consensus best player (i'm being generous with 2014-15)

2015-16 to 2017-18: Top 3 player, Kane was clearly better in 15-16 and by the end of 16-17, McDavid surpassed him

 

[SomeDude]

Half?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

1st for sure. Crosby is not Crosby without coming in and lighting it up immediately, the Red Wings series, all the individual hardware.

 

[Peat]

My admittedly shaky memory is that Sid was still the consensus best player in the world until summer 2017 at least. Yeah, other people had the Hart wins, but the lists and general consensus is that Sid reigned supreme.

Hell, you can go up to 2019 and the players are still saying Sid is the best in the NHL

 

[ChaosAgent]

My admittedly shaky memory is that Sid was still the consensus best player in the world until summer 2017 at least. Yeah, other people had the Hart wins, but the lists and general consensus is that Sid reigned supreme.

Hell, you can go up to 2019 and the players are still saying Sid is the best in the NHL

I tend to think these types of lists are a little overly deferential to the legends/player's idols. You would have had basketball players saying the same thing about Kobe 2-3 years before he retired, or soccer players saying the same thing about Cristiano Ronaldo 2-3 years before he started playing his trade in Saudi Arabia.

Just look at the numbers in A vs. B and then era adjust them. It isn't close.

2018-2019 Sid was magnificent though.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Early career Crosby plays for the All Time Pens. Late Career Crosby plays for the All Time Wings

 

[Peat]

I tend to think these types of lists are a little overly deferential to the legends/player's idols. You would have had basketball players saying the same thing about Kobe 2-3 years before he retired, or soccer players saying the same thing about Cristiano Ronaldo 2-3 years before he started playing his trade in Saudi Arabia.

Just look at the numbers in A vs. B and then era adjust them. It isn't close.

2018-2019 Sid was magnificent though.

Perhaps, but if the question is "who is the consensus best", talking about how the consensus is wrong is besides the point. I'd add that he also came 2nd in the Hart that year, and came 2nd to a blazing individual breakout season and those don't take guys from not in the best player to the world conversation to best in the world just like that. People don't trust the sample size.

So if the press and the players are saying he's the consensus best... like, I could dig for polls here or on reddit I guess?

Also, me, I don't believe in the numbers as the sole judge. Regular season numbers are too much about who you play with, your role, and frankly a player's level of f***s. It was very clear that post-2016, Sid didn't really give a shit about winning any more individual awards and would regularly coast a bit in the regular season once the team was okay.

For me, best player in the world comes down to saying "there's a hockey game (or best of seven) being played and the good thing is you can pick the team that'll represent you, and the bad thing is that if the team loses, they'll kill you. Which player do you pick first?"

To me, in 18-19, that was still unquestionably Sid. No double-thinking. Judging from what I found, that'd maybe be a consensus opinion.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Perhaps, but if the question is "who is the consensus best", talking about how the consensus is wrong is besides the point. I'd add that he also came 2nd in the Hart that year, and came 2nd to a blazing individual breakout season and those don't take guys from not in the best player to the world conversation to best in the world just like that. People don't trust the sample size.

So if the press and the players are saying he's the consensus best... like, I could dig for polls here or on reddit I guess?

Also, me, I don't believe in the numbers as the sole judge. Regular season numbers are too much about who you play with, your role, and frankly a player's level of f***s. It was very clear that post-2016, Sid didn't really give a shit about winning any more individual awards and would regularly coast a bit in the regular season once the team was okay.

For me, best player in the world comes down to saying "there's a hockey game (or best of seven) being played and the good thing is you can pick the team that'll represent you, and the bad thing is that if the team loses, they'll kill you. Which player do you pick first?"

To me, in 18-19, that was still unquestionably Sid. No double-thinking. Judging from what I found, that'd maybe be a consensus opinion.

'18-'19 he was sublime. On a flawed team. No doubting that at all.

I find it difficult to handwave away regular season production:
Per the OPs number's Crosby A had 22% higher PPG. Adjusting just based on G/PG in the eras (NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com) it goes to 25%. And arguably it should be adjusted more since latter goals would be skewed towards guys playing 3-on-3 overtime.

When we are also handwaving away playoff success. We have lost our last 5 playoff series.
And the teams are doing a lot of heavy lifting from 2016-2017. The 2016 Smythe could have just as easily gone to Kessel or Letang. The 2017 Smythe should have gone to Fleury/Murray collectively. And in all honesty the 2008 Pens were better than the 2017 Pens.

But I accept I'm in the minority here, and it's largely clouded by my perception that Sid hasn't been that good post-COVID (post Core Muscle surgery), by his standards.

 

[Peat]

'18-'19 he was sublime. On a flawed team. No doubting that at all.

I find it difficult to handwave away regular season production:
Per the OPs number's Crosby A had 22% higher PPG. Adjusting just based on G/PG in the eras (NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com) it goes to 25%. And arguably it should be adjusted more since latter goals would be skewed towards guys playing 3-on-3 overtime.

When we are also handwaving away playoff success. We have lost our last 5 playoff series.
And the teams are doing a lot of heavy lifting from 2016-2017. The 2016 Smythe could have just as easily gone to Kessel or Letang. The 2017 Smythe should have gone to Fleury/Murray collectively. And in all honesty the 2008 Pens were better than the 2017 Pens.

But I accept I'm in the minority here, and it's largely clouded by my perception that Sid hasn't been that good post-COVID (post Core Muscle surgery), by his standards.

... but I'm not comparing Sid to early Sid, I'm comparing him to his peers in 18-19?

 

[ChaosAgent]

... but I'm not comparing Sid to early Sid, I'm comparing him to his peers in 18-19?

Yes, but the question is a 10 year window. 18-19 was a high water mark for sure. But holistically I find it really difficult to say the "late career Crosby" on average equals the "early career Crosby."

I guess if the question is solely "when did McDavid pass Crosby" then you could say Crosby 18-19 was better. Or maybe they handed the torch back and forth a little.

 

[Peat]

Yes, but the question is a 10 year window. 18-19 was a high water mark for sure. But holistically I find it really difficult to say the "late career Crosby" on average equals the "early career Crosby."

I guess if the question is solely "when did McDavid pass Crosby" then you could say Crosby 18-19 was better. Or maybe they handed the torch back and forth a little.

The question I'm answering is how long was Crosby the consensus best player in the world. I'm not here to compare early Crosby to late Crosby.

And, admittedly with a little bias, my memory of the consensus debate is I don't think McDavid did more than threaten Sid until he took his big leap in 19-20. No torch swapping, just straight up considered better. And when the torch swapped, the idea Sid might take it back was ridiculous (although having core surgery didn't help there either).



Although for early Crosby vs late Crosby...

a) no shit, it's early Crosby, that's just how athlete ageing works
b) but that's not the question in terms of legacy. Legacy is about performance vs expectations, and because it's no shit that early Crosby would beat late Crosby, it's going to be different expectations.

And I do think that's a dead heat. Almost uncanny really how he absolutely met expectations for what he could do in both periods, and maybe exceeded them, while still leaving huge amounts of meat on the bone due to severe bad luck.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I voted second half only because of injuries.

It's honestly criminal what those did to what we could have seen. Those peak seasons were something special.

 

[pistolpete11]

The question isn't which version was better. The question is which is more important for this legacy.

Early career Sid was otherworldly, but the best player in the game is almost always going to be someone in that age range where guy's scoring usually peaks. Sid being a point-per-game every year into his mid-30's (and counting) is something else.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

You're stretching the timeframe too far, one could argue Crosby wasn't the consensus best player anymore by 2015 :

2005-06 to 2009-10 : Second to Ovechkin (except for 06-07)

2010-11 to 2014-15 : Consensus best player (i'm being generous with 2014-15)

2015-16 to 2017-18: Top 3 player, Kane was clearly better in 15-16 and by the end of 16-17, McDavid surpassed him

No. After his second straight smythe I remember clearly the hockey world having him at 1. This was the apex of his career and his stature was never higher. You don't have to win the hart every year to be the best player. See McDavid

 

[canadianguy77]

I tend to think these types of lists are a little overly deferential to the legends/player's idols. You would have had basketball players saying the same thing about Kobe 2-3 years before he retired, or soccer players saying the same thing about Cristiano Ronaldo 2-3 years before he started playing his trade in Saudi Arabia.

Just look at the numbers in A vs. B and then era adjust them. It isn't close.

2018-2019 Sid was magnificent though.

He’s also never had the class of linemates that everyone else in the conversation has had. That should count for something; always having to do more with less.

 

[Turin]

No. After his second straight smythe I remember clearly the hockey world having him at 1. This was the apex of his career and his stature was never higher. You don't have to win the hart every year to be the best player. See McDavid

Yea I would say he was widely viewed as the best player from 2011-2017.

 

[tom_servo]

Early years.

He scored 100 points at 18 on a bad team. Scoring title at 19 on a playoff team. Stanley Cup Finals one season later. Stanley Cup victory directly after.

That's what established him as a special player, or, to coin a new term, a "generational" player.

Add in his peak scoring pace years and comebacks, I think he established his legacy as early as 2011. The flameouts from then through 2014 actually take away a bit (Hart notwithstanding).

 

[Lara Emily]

My left, or your left?

Yes

 

[Night Shift]

Do you work for Tip of the Iceburgh Podcast OP?

 

[Hockey 4 everyone]

it still pisses me off that crosby only has 2 art rosses. a guy of his talent should have a much more impressive individual trophy case. those years he lost the art ross to jamie benn and sedin still bother me.

thank goodness he won 3 cups. that's super great.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Crosby/Pens lost about a year and a half + 1 playoffs of absolute peak Sid which should slide his projection first half. Which should include 15/16 for me.

Multiple trophies were awarded to others due to him not being there. A couple Harts, ART's and at least 1 more Rocket. Who knows what else.

1st half was peak Sid.

Kind of strange to ask which half is best for his legacy knowing what we know.

If not for Kessel they'd still be in the hunt for #2/#3.

 

[TheGuiminator]

it still pisses me off that crosby only has 2 art rosses. a guy of his talent should have a much more impressive individual trophy case. those years he lost the art ross to jamie benn and sedin still bother me.

thank goodness he won 3 cups. that's super great.

Crosby’s peak seasons, robbed by injuries, do leave a hole in his resume, especially when you compare him to other all-time greats.

What makes a bigger hole in Crosby’s career is losing Art Ross’s in his prime that he had no business losing : 2010 to Henrik Sedin, 2015 to Jamie Ben, 2016 to Patrick Kane and 2017 to sophomore McDavid (which bothers me too a lot).

Having won these scoring titles when he was relatively healthy, the hole of 2010-13 wouldn’t look as big as it is.

At this stage of his career, he ain’t winning anymore Hart or Art Ross. However, putting up another 100 pts season, retiring with a perfect record (example 20 straight ppg seasons) and winning a really strong Conn Smythe ( & 4th Stanley Cup) later on in his career could still be possible and would compensate for the robbed peak years.