Where does Neidermayer rank?

[FakeKidPoker*]

Yes I know this has done before but with him going into the Hall tomorrow the hyperbole has begun.. maybe it is just where i live where the media will quite stupidly put him into the top 10 or even 5 but whatever.

Now obviously he was a great player worthy of the Hall.. but it is just whenever I see him being brought up all anyone ever talks about is his winning and not his individual play.. I find this funny considering you can quite easily say that on every single Cup team he played on he was always his teams second best d-man.

imo if we are putting him in a list with d-man from the 90s and 2000s he is easily last on a list of guys like Bourque, Lidstrom, Chelios, Pronger, Stevens, Macinnis and Leetch and all time I don't think I have him top 20 at all.



Personally I could easily see the guys of today like Chara and Keith passing him by when it is all done.

Click to read more...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think chara already has, tbh

 

[seventieslord]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1487867

 

[seventieslord]

Chara already has, Keith never will.

 

[getzforfighting*]

Yes I know this has done before but with him going into the Hall tomorrow the hyperbole has begun.. maybe it is just where i live where the media will quite stupidly put him into the top 10 or even 5 but whatever.

Now obviously he was a great player worthy of the Hall.. but it is just whenever I see him being brought up all anyone ever talks about is his winning and not his individual play.. I find this funny considering you can quite easily say that on every single Cup team he played on he was always his teams second best d-man.

imo if we are putting him in a list with d-man from the 90s and 2000s he is easily last on a list of guys like Bourque, Lidstrom, Chelios, Pronger, Stevens, Macinnis and Leetch and all time I don't think I have him top 20 at all.



Personally I could easily see the guys of today like Chara and Keith passing him by when it is all done.

he was better than pronger in 07 and has the conn smythe to prove it

 

[MS]

he was better than pronger in 07 and has the conn smythe to prove it

Pronger was better than Niedermayer in 2007 by a country mile.

But nobody in the media liked Pronger for a) the way he screwed over Edmonton the year previous and, b) a couple cheap hits he threw in that playoffs. So they jobbed Pronger and voted for 'nice guy' Niedermayer instead.

__________

As for Niedermayer, amongst defenders who had their prime post-1980 I'd rate him behind :

Potvin
Robinson
Bourque
Howe
Fetisov
Stevens
MacInnis
Coffey
Chelios
Lidstrom
Chara
Pronger

... and probably Leetch. So maybe the 13-14th best defender of the past 30 years. Maybe 25-30 all time, at best. He was truly elite for all of three seasons from 2003-2007.

But I'm sure we'll be hearing the 'top 5/10 all time' stuff from the media all week, as usual. Most over-rated player of all time. Was considered marginally better than Darryl Sydor when both turned 30, and somehow those three high-level seasons turned him into an all-time great.

 

[tony d]

I have him between 30 and 40 on my defenseman list, the guy had a solid career but his peak came to late for him to be higher on my list.

 

[tjcurrie]

A huge debate went on here between he and Sergei Zubov. Personally I rank Sergei Zubov slightly higher, but they're pretty comparable. The fact that there was such a large back and forth debate on it would actually suggest so. If there was any real difference between them there probably wouldn't be such a debate.

I know the boards did their top 60 list and it's pretty interesting. I found it an atrocity that Niedermayer was ranked somewhere in the 20s and Zubov never even cracked the list...

Anyways, that list included players going back to the early 1900s-1920s and 30s. I know this is a history of hockey forum so when you're talking "all-time", that's exactly what it means.

Me, I prefer to go from about mid 1940s - 1950 and on when considering rankings. Going by that, I probably have Niedermayer somewhere around 15 or so give or take a couple spots. Impossible to be exact but I think anywhere in there is at least fair.

I believe he does get over-hyped by many though. Especially up here in Canada.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A huge debate went on here between he and Sergei Zubov. Personally I rank Sergei Zubov slightly higher, but they're pretty comparable. The fact that there was such a large back and forth debate on it would actually suggest so. If there was any real difference between them there probably wouldn't be such a debate.

I know the boards did their top 60 list and it's pretty interesting. I found it an atrocity that Niedermayer was ranked somewhere in the 20s and Zubov never even cracked the list...

Anyways, that list included players going back to the early 1900s-1920s and 30s. I know this is a history of hockey forum so when you're talking "all-time", that's exactly what it means.

Me, I prefer to go from about mid 1940s - 1950 and on when considering rankings. Going by that, I probably have Niedermayer somewhere around 15 or so give or take a couple spots. Impossible to be exact but I think anywhere in there is at least fair.

I believe he does get over-hyped by many though. Especially up here in Canada.

This again? You keep posting that Niedermayer ended up in the 20s, but he ended up 33rd, which I think is completely reasonable.

 

[tjcurrie]

This again? You keep posting that Niedermayer ended up in the 20s, but he ended up 33rd, which I think is completely reasonable.

Yes this again. Is that okay?

My mistake. I thought he was about 27th.

Regardless, that doesn't change anything really. I'm not saying 27th or 33rd is unreasonable. I'm saying 30+ spots between he and Zubov is. It's 100% ridiculousness.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes this again. Is that okay?

My mistake. I thought he was about 27th.

This has to be the 7th or 8th time I've corrected you on this.

Regardless, that doesn't change anything really. I'm not saying 27th or 33rd is unreasonable. I'm saying 30+ spots between he and Zubov is. It's 100% ridiculousness.

Post-1980 defensemen on the list after Niedermayer:

Alexei Kasatonov
Zdeno Chara
Rob Blake
Larry Murphy
Doug Wilson

Chara is probably ahead of Niedermayer if we did the list today, but I think it's reasonable to have Kasatonov, Blake, Murphy, and Wilson below Niedermayer but ahead of Zubov.

Funny that we only had 5 post-1980 defensemen between spots 34 and 60, but had 6 of them between spots 18 and 29.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Post-1980 defensemen on the list after Niedermayer:

Alexei Kasatonov
Zdeno Chara
Rob Blake
Larry Murphy
Doug Wilson

Chara is probably ahead of Niedermayer if we did the list today, but I think it's reasonable to have Kasatonov, Blake, Murphy, and Wilson below Niedermayer but ahead of Zubov.

Funny that we only had 5 post-1980 defensemen between spots 34 and 60, but had 6 of them between spots 18 and 29.

which sounds about right to me. at this point chara is probably ahead of niedermayer, and i'd have niedermayer and blake 1a and 1b. very very close, but both a little above wilson and murphy. not really sure where/how to place kasatonov.

Yes this again. Is that okay?

My mistake. I thought he was about 27th.

Regardless, that doesn't change anything really. I'm not saying 27th or 33rd is unreasonable. I'm saying 30+ spots between he and Zubov is. It's 100% ridiculousness.

i can see an argument that zubov should be close to, maybe if we're being very generous even with, doug wilson. but he was at the very bottom of the list.

with a straight face, tell me why zubov belongs in the same sentence as larry murphy.

 

[Big Phil]

Chara already has, Keith never will.

That's hard to say about Keith. Considering Niedermayer himself was 30 before he really took off. Keith is 30 right now. He's got two Cups, a Gold Medal, a Norris and a Conn Smythe worthy run. We'll see how he faes in his 30s. But yeah I agree Chara has surpassed him by now.

Other defensemen such as Doughty I can see pass him on an all-time list for sure. Niedermayer was NOT as good as him at the same age at all.

As for Niedermayer on the all-time list. He constantly gets overrated to the point of nausea. There is no way he is more of a headliner in this class than Chelios. That being said, he's no better than top 25 all-time. He's behind the likes of Horton, MacInnis, Stevens and I'll even say Pronger. I remember in 2007 Pierre Maguire was in top form rating him as the 7th best defenseman when he announced his retirement (which was a temporary retirement). I was in shock. I can't remember if it was Robinson or Potvin that he put Niedermayer ahead of but he was so sure of this. Nieds was ahead of Coffey, Chelios, Park, etc. Unbelievable. I am not sure I have seen a player so overrated collectively by the media.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Keith is ahead of where Niedermayer was at the same age, that's for sure.

 

[tjcurrie]

This has to be the 7th or 8th time I've corrected you on this.

Really??

Try once. Dont recall if it was you or not but I do recall having to be corrected once. Not twice. Not thrice. Not 7 or 8 times as you ridiculously suggest. Once. Again, my mistake. For some reason I have 27th stuck in my head. I'll tattoo 33 on my arm so it doesnt happen a 2nd time.

I dont care if Niedermayer is placed ahead of Zubov. It's not crazy to do so at all and there's certainly an argument for that. But 30+ spots is just crazy. It suggests that Niedermayer is far superior to him, and that's just wrong.

 

[tjcurrie]

with a straight face, tell me why zubov belongs in the same sentence as larry murphy.

How is Larry Murphy so far ahead? How is he on some other level than Zubov? Because he's Canadian? Because he played on a couple powerhouses and won a few Cups? Because he wracked up a lot of points in the 1980s? Because his rookie card is worth more $?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I dont care if Niedermayer is placed ahead of Zubov. It's not crazy to do so at all and there's certainly an argument for that. But 30+ spots is just crazy. It suggests that Niedermayer is far superior to him, and that's just wrong.

Actually it doesn't.

Once you get past the easy to distinguish top players it gets very muddy very quickly.

You end up splitting hairs pretty finely.

30 spots out of all the defensemen who have ever played hockey is not that many.

 

[Evincar]

he was better than pronger in 07 and has the conn smythe to prove it

Mike Vernon was better than Nick Lidstrom in 97 and he has the smythe to prove it.

Giguere was better than Brodeur and Niedermayer in 2003 and he has the smythe to prove it.

Patrick Kane was better than Crawford and Keith last playoffs and he has the smythe to prove it.

See what I did there?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Giguere was better than Brodeur and Niedermayer in 2003 and he has the smythe to prove it.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Evincar]

Not sure if serious.

Giguere definitely deserved it imo but you missed my point entirely.

 

[McXLNC97]

Niedermayer gets overrated because the "he won all the championships" card gets played a lot. Statistically he's not even in the top 20 for d-men all time in goals or points.

 

[Sens Rule]

Pronger was better than Niedermayer in 2007 by a country mile.

But nobody in the media liked Pronger for a) the way he screwed over Edmonton the year previous and, b) a couple cheap hits he threw in that playoffs. So they jobbed Pronger and voted for 'nice guy' Niedermayer instead.

__________

As for Niedermayer, amongst defenders who had their prime post-1980 I'd rate him behind :

Potvin
Robinson
Bourque
Howe
Fetisov
Stevens
MacInnis
Coffey
Chelios
Lidstrom
Chara
Pronger

... and probably Leetch. So maybe the 13-14th best defender of the past 30 years. Maybe 25-30 all time, at best. He was truly elite for all of three seasons from 2003-2007.

But I'm sure we'll be hearing the 'top 5/10 all time' stuff from the media all week, as usual. Most over-rated player of all time. Was considered marginally better than Darryl Sydor when both turned 30, and somehow those three high-level seasons turned him into an all-time great.

I would say definitely Leetch. Also definitely Pronger in 2007. And as a Sens fan I HATE Pronger, and hated him blatantly elbowing our guy in the head and getting only 1 game.

Beuchemin-Pronger with niedermeyer-Pahlsson-Moen absolutely owned the Sens that series. I woulda given Pahlsson the Smythe... But probably Pronger should have won it. Those 5 just owned the Pizza line who had dominated the East and the NHL all season, caused them to be split up, utterly eliminated Heatley and Spezza's effectiveness.

Niedermeyer was good, but not the reason the Ducks won the Cup.

In 06 and 07 Pronger was probably the best player in the world. He took a weak Edmonton team withon a game of the Cup and was the decisive member of the best regular season and Cup winning Ducks. He might not even have got the Norris trophies or the Smythe's but those are two of the most dominant years by a defenceman in recent memory. Back to Pronger in 01 or Bourque in the 87-90. Or Chelios at hos peak on Chicago. Pronger was a monster. A crazy dangerous monster of a player. But like me... The media and many fans hate him with a passion. And liked Lidstrom and loved Niedermeyer for some reason.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

How is Larry Murphy so far ahead? How is he on some other level than Zubov? Because he's Canadian? Because he played on a couple powerhouses and won a few Cups? Because he wracked up a lot of points in the 1980s? Because his rookie card is worth more $?

Actually it doesn't.

Once you get past the easy to distinguish top players it gets very muddy very quickly.

You end up splitting hairs pretty finely.

30 spots out of all the defensemen who have ever played hockey is not that many.

bravecanadian basically said it for me. but just so we don't have this infuriating conversation yet again, the difference between 1 and 2 is enormous. the difference between 2 and 5 is significant, but smaller. so the difference between 35 and 55 isn't all that big at all. the difference between 250 and 350 is probably almost nothing.

 

[Terry Yake]

i love scott niedermayer and everything he did for the ducks but at best he's top 30 all time. in terms of d-men who played into the new millenium, i'd easily put guys like bourque, coffey, lidstrom, pronger, and stevens above him.

his accomplishments, skating ability, and smoothness of his game goes without question but in terms of his offensive game, it didn't really take off until later in his career. he eclipsed 50 points only twice with the devils while he eclipsed 60 twice with the ducks. i'd say that has a lot to do with the devils defense-first style of the 90s and early 2000s but had he peaked earlier or played in a different system, his numbers would probably have been a lot higher

 

[Plural]

Keith is ahead of where Niedermayer was at the same age, that's for sure.

Yeah. But Nieds had a pretty darn good season's after turning 30. I can't see Keith keeping the pace with Niedermayer there. I guess he can, but he needs to get significantly better to do that.