WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
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? How is acknowledging that Forsberg played in a lower scoring league “mythologizing”?This is the kind of "mythologizing" I can do without.
? How is acknowledging that Forsberg played in a lower scoring league “mythologizing”?This is the kind of "mythologizing" I can do without.
? How is acknowledging that Forsberg played in a lower scoring league “mythologizing”?
I’ve never been against era adjusting Crosby stats..It was a backwards comment at using league GPG to "adjust" stats.
BTW, I noticed you didn't give similar acknowledgement to Crosby's career assist per game stats in the discussion of his playmaking ranking.
Great post and analysis as per usual but I wonder how many other people had the same thought in the first sentence that I did?I find Sakic and Crosby are roughly comparable as goal-scorers.
Sakic is a bit ahead in terms of career numbers (625-580), but he's played around 140 extra games. Crosby is slightly ahead per game (0.47 vs 0.45 - and he did it in an era that was, on balance, a bit lower scoring).
Both were in the top ten in goals five times. Crosby has two goal-scoring titles, which is impressive. But in both cases, the best goal scorer of this generation either missed time (2010) or had an off year (2017). Sakic was runner up once (2001). Two RR trophies is impressive, but Sakic has all four of the next best scoring finishes (2nd, 5th, 6th and 6th).
Crosby was on pace for around 60 goals in 2011, which easily would have given him the Rocket Richard trophy. (But it hurts that he only scored 35 goals over his next 82 games after 2011 - was that 60 goal pace sustainable)? Three RR trophies would tie him with Bure, Selanne and even Hull. (On the other hand, Sakic was affected by injuries too - had he not missed nine games in 1999, he was on pace for another 2nd place finish. And obviously Crosby potentially scoring 60 goals in 2011 is more impressive than Sakic finishing runner-up in 1999 - but we're also talking about a 41 game sample vs 73).
Thinking about the "artistry" of it - Sakic has one of the best wrist shots in NHL history. Crosby doesn't have a singular defining skill that we associate with goal-scorers. (If we're strictly talking about output, then this is irrelevant).
Crosby seems to be the better goal-scorer at ES, and Sakic is better with the man advantage. (That's not an argument for or against either player; just a factual description).
Sakic is pretty clearly the better goal-scorer in the playoffs. Through their first 172 PO games (the length of Sakic's career), Sakic is ahead 84-69. (Crosby only scored 2 goals in the 8 extra games, so that doesn't do much for him). Despite making fewer trips to the Stanley Cup finals, Sakic led the playoffs in goals more often, and had that historic goal-scoring run in 1996. Sakic scored as many goals in the 2001 Stanley Cup finals (7 games against the New Jersey Devils at the peak of the Dead Puck Era) as Crosby did in his entire career (25 games). Plus Sakic has the all-time record for most playoff overtime goals.
On balance, Crosby is probably a bit ahead in the regular season, and Sakic is ahead in the playoffs. Overall they're probably roughly equal all-time. Sakic is maybe a top 20 goal-scorer in NHL history. (I've never heard anyone credible rank him in the top ten). I'm not going to put together a full list, but arguing by analogy, Crosby is probably also around 20th all-time.
Assist leaders since Crosby came into League
2005-06: Thornton
2006-07: Thornton
2007-08: Thornton
2008-09: Malkin
2009-10: H. Sedin
2010-11: H. Sedin
2011-12: H. Sedin
2012-13: St. Louis
2013-14: Crosby
2014-15: Backstrom
2015-16: Karlsson
2016-17: McDavid
2017-18: Wheeler/Giroux (tie)
2018-19: Kucherov
2019-20: Draisaitl
2020-21: McDavid
2021-22: Huberdeau
2022-23: McDavid
Cumulative:
Thornton - 3
H. Sedin - 3
McDavid - 3
Assorted - 1
It comes off as manipulative that you try and lump Crosby in with Thornton, H. Sedin and Backstrom in the sense "guys known to be playmakers, not goal scorers, and wow, look at how much he scored even though that wasn't really his thing" to build up his legend a bit more. Crosby was a great goal scorer and a great playmaker and was always known to be both. The years of Crosby-Ovechkin discourse has perhaps clouded your brain on this.
Crosby is a great goal-scorer, I actually like his goal-scoring a lot. He's such a great player with varied talents, and he can adjust and continuously improve his game.
I compare his goal-scoring to Howe, Gretzky, and McDavid. Four of the best hockey players ever, and they were all capable of leading the League in goal-scoring, and all created opportunities to score because of their all-around greatness.
But, were any of them ever the best goal-scorer in hockey? Probably not.
Watching McDavid now....he's good enough to lead the NHL in goals, but he's just not as good as guys like Matthews and Pastrnak. When McDavid is in the high slot, he just doesn't look very dangerous, with respect to shooting the puck. But he is certainly dangerous with his speed.
Howe was pretty nifty around the net, and he was very strong and could shoot from a distance. But he didn't quite have the goal-scoring instincts of Richard or Hull.
Gretzky's goal-scoring was too era-dependent; he didn't have the physical strength to score from a distance, and struggled to score when the League improved.
Crosby's a good goal-scorer, but he's not Ovechkin, Stamkos, Pastrnak, or Matthews.
By the time he retires he should be. Always found him to be very underrated in that departmentFor a player generally considered a playmaker and is arguably is the best playmaker of his generation, he is notching some notable goalscoring milestones.
Where does he rank as a goalscorer?
T1 most single season playoff goals of his era
#2 goalscorer of his era
T2 all-time Rocket Richard wins
#3 in GPG of his era (min. 800 games)
#3 in playoff goals of his era
T11th in # of 30 goal seasons all-time
#20 in all-time goalscoring
#22 in all-time GPG (min. 800 games)
From a purely goalscoring standpoint, is he Top 20 all-time?
In the Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate, you could certainly point to OV as the player you want on the ice in order to score a goal in the last minute but Crosby was the guy you wanted for the other 59 minutes to give your team a better chance of not being down a goal with a minute left.
Somewhat related...
Crosby has 18 seasons with more assists than goals and 0 seasons with more goals than assists. However, in 2023-2024 he has 6 more goals than assists with 31 games to play.
Will he fall off this list of players who have at least 18 seasons with more assists than goals and 0 seasons with more goals than assists?
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Not sure here, Sakic-Yzerman were good scorer but not bad playmaker and centers (just normal to have more assist than goals, there is like 1.7 assist for every goal in the nhl during their career).Surprised by some of the names on this list. Sakic, Yzerman and Fedorov? Really? Hunter and Brind'Amour... WTF...
That's not what happened.Pretty inconvenient that peak Ovechkin >> Peak Crosby
Not sure of that, with what Crosby was able to do at 5v5 with Pascal Dupuis and Kunitz was special.Pretty inconvenient that peak Ovechkin >> Peak Crosby
Not sure of that, with what Crosby was able to do at 5v5 with Pascal Dupuis and Kunitz was special.
Yes regular Top 6 guy, not special good first liner, Dupuis did not put more than 12 goals in a season from 2006 to 2010.2 good defensively responsible top line players who were 20-25 goal / 50/60 point guys before ever putting on a Pens jersey?
you were probably invovled in a troll fight or do you really think a Penguins fans thought that Chris Kunitz was not an legit nhler ?For years Pens fans told us for years they were AHL caliber players.
Maybe but the little amount Crosby was there, a ridiculous 6.62 goal by 60 minutes were scored when they were on the ice together at 5v5 in 2012.Crosby barely played in Dupuis's best season.
Yes regular Top 6 guy, not special good first liner, Dupuis did not put more than 12 goals in a season from 2006 to 2010.
In that time frame when they were not playing with Crosby, they were not special.
In 2010-2011 Dupuis GF%
With Crosby on the Ice: 68.57%
Without Crosby on the Ice: 27.27%
you were probably invovled in a troll fight or do you really think a Penguins fans thought that Chris Kunitz was not an legit nhler ?
Maybe but the little amount Crosby was there, a ridiculous 6.62 goal by 60 minutes were scored when they were on the ice together at 5v5 in 2012.
Dupuis scored 14G-21A-35 pts in 60 games without Crosby that year, perfectly fine 19G-28A-48 pts by 82 games pace, thats exactly what 2003 Dupuis did.
When Crosby played Dupuis scored 11G-13A-24 pts in just 22 games, a 41 goals, 90 points type of pace.
Crosby was on pace for around 60 goals in 2011, which easily would have given him the Rocket Richard trophy. (But it hurts that he only scored 35 goals over his next 82 games after 2011 - was that 60 goal pace sustainable)?
The irony is that is that when narratives are thrown around and disproved it become clear that Crosby may have had the least talented linemates throughout his career in comparison to the other Top 10 forwards.
It is something that should strengthen his resume when being compared with other similarly productive forwards. From the goalscoring perspective, you can argue that he was able to score goals without a notable playmaker on his line which, again, strengthens his resume and the idea that he "focused" on goalscoring and saw results as opposed to riding the wave of a line that was clicking.
It's been clearly established that Crosby was the #1C and took on the other teams best lines and d-pairings so Malkin could take advantage of the easier matchups.Sure if you ignore how much defensive attention he didn't get because teams also had to stop the other Top 3 player in the league on the team in Malkin.
As much as average at best linemates hurt Crosby, he was helped by having Malkin on the team
It's just variance. Same as Crosby's unsustainable shooting % in 2010-11 pre-concussion. He didn't unlock a secret formula for beating goaltenders, he was just on a heater. As proved by the shooting % regression the rest of his career.Hard to really take his post concussion play as being truly representative of what could have happened.
It is not a popular narrative but it can be reasonably argued that Crosby's unprecedented slow start (to that point in his career) in 2009/10, where he was at a 0.96 PPG and and a 0.46 GPG thru 26 games, was due to Cup hangover.
Through the last 55 games he was at a 1.53 PPG and a 0.71 GPG (a 58 goal pace). It is quite reasonable to assume a 50 goal pace for the rest of the 10/11 season which puts him at 55 goals or so.
It's just variance. Same as Crosby's unsustainable shooting % in 2010-11 pre-concussion. He didn't unlock a secret formula for beating goaltenders, he was just on a heater. As proved by the shooting % regression the rest of his career.
I mean I would reckon he didn't suddenly uncover a newfound holy grail on November 28, 2009 that allowed him to shoot 19.9 % for that 93 game and only that 93 game stretch of his career, never to be replicated either before or after. Rather I would reckon that he was an extremely talented player that was in the prime of his career and experiencing the positive side of variance.He was on a "heater" for 90 games when he got concussed.
I mean I would reckon he didn't suddenly uncover a newfound holy grail on November 28, 2009 that allowed him to shoot 19.9 % for that 93 game and only that 93 game stretch of his career, never to be replicated either before or after. Rather I would reckon that he was an extremely talented player that was in the prime of his career and experiencing the positive side of variance.
Is that an unreasonable position?