When Will Heads Roll?

[Haj]

Trading prospects is beyond dumb.

First of all, which goal scorer is out there that you would trade a prospect for ?

One goal scorer is not going make us cup threat, so whats the point ?

I believe you are overstating the importance of veteran players in developing young talent. Veteran players would be good for helping prospects adjust to what life in the NHL is like (How hard to work, diet, training). It will help in the locker room and on the ice as well, but its not as if Teemu Selanne can teach a young sniper prospect to score goals. It something that a player intrinsically has or doesn't have.

If you want heads to roll it should be Tallon's, He's the one who didn't sign Semin or Nash. But I'm sure he had vaild reason for not signing them (money) or they just didn't want to play here.

 

[CatscratchFever]

Tell me...who did players like Sydney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Alex Ovechkin have for mentors when they were developing? Were there top end players like what you're suggesting we need? As I recall those teams were bottom feeders at the time with no significant big name player. I think the types of players that Tallon has gone out and signed are good quality players (minus these past couple of games), they just don't have the skills to score on a consistent basis like Huberdeau. As long as those top end prospects are surrounded by players with good character, and good leadership, I don't see how said prospects/potential prospects can be run into the ground.

I agree with this. How I believe is, you either have it or you don't. A fanbase like ours who is desperate for winning hockey will grasp straws, make excuses and put blind hope into any player we wish would help us. Dolphin fans are the same way, Tannehill has crap receivers, his line needs to block better and on and on. We want him to be the answer so badly, that we excuse his real shortcomings. It sucks, but it's true. The truth is most of our players and prospects are terrible. I didn't say all. There are outliers, but we lack talent across the board organizationally. Good players will play good no matter the team or situation. We are so desperate we blame George freakin' Parros for our issues. All the losers skating around with no goals and we pick on the fighter. Get 'em out of here! So sad, we've reverted back to the good old crummy Panther days.

 

[Panthers Rock]

Is it a bit harsh to put Versteeg on that list? Considering he has only played one game after being injured.

Yes it is But his first game was not good. Obviously he needs more time. But if your best guys aren't playing their best, look out. Even Campbell has slacked but not to the level of some other guys. The young guys are trying way harder than the vets.

 

[Mogo]

Tell me...who did players like Sydney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Alex Ovechkin have for mentors when they were developing? Were there top end players like what you're suggesting we need? As I recall those teams were bottom feeders at the time with no significant big name player. I think the types of players that Tallon has gone out and signed are good quality players (minus these past couple of games), they just don't have the skills to score on a consistent basis like Huberdeau. As long as those top end prospects are surrounded by players with good character, and good leadership, I don't see how said prospects/potential prospects can be run into the ground.

I guess Mario Lemieux isn't good enough and those guys are no where near the talent we've drafted those are sure fire superstars. We've never had a prospect like that. If Hubs was projected to be anywhere near those guys he'd be able to jump right in and make a difference top talent or not.

 

[Lampshade85]

I guess Mario Lemieux isn't good enough and those guys are no where near the talent we've drafted those are sure fire superstars. We've never had a prospect like that. If Hubs was projected to be anywhere near those guys he'd be able to jump right in and make a difference top talent or not.

The original point that was being made was that we "needed" a proven goal scorer on the ice to help mentor these young prospects. My timeline might be a wee bit off but I don't think Lemieux was still playing when they drafted Crosby. So if you're now going by who's in our organization that could mentor our young prospects, then we have Kevin Dineen, Gord Murphy, Craig Ramsay, Brian Skrudland, and Dale Tallon himself. Sure not nearly the player Lemieux was but they were good players in their own right.

 

[Laus723]

Kopecky was centering the top line, how are the injuries BS? Doesn't make any damn sense that you guys would say that it's not.

Some guys aren't playing well, obviously, but how are heads gonna roll, especially Dineen's, with all these injuries and other teams playing poorly? I could see a trade, but no one's job is on the line.

 

[JPG]

Tell me...who did players like Sydney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, and Alex Ovechkin have for mentors when they were developing? Were there top end players like what you're suggesting we need? As I recall those teams were bottom feeders at the time with no significant big name player. I think the types of players that Tallon has gone out and signed are good quality players (minus these past couple of games), they just don't have the skills to score on a consistent basis like Huberdeau. As long as those top end prospects are surrounded by players with good character, and good leadership, I don't see how said prospects/potential prospects can be run into the ground.

Well to be fair Malkin and Crosby have an owner named Lemieux.

Ovechkin? Well...a little guy you might know, Tomas Fleischman, was on the caps his first year. Taught him everything he knows. Then forgot everything.

 

[Mogo]

The original point that was being made was that we "needed" a proven goal scorer on the ice to help mentor these young prospects. My timeline might be a wee bit off but I don't think Lemieux was still playing when they drafted Crosby. So if you're now going by who's in our organization that could mentor our young prospects, then we have Kevin Dineen, Gord Murphy, Craig Ramsay, Brian Skrudland, and Dale Tallon himself. Sure not nearly the player Lemieux was but they were good players in their own right.

They did play together 25+ games.

Also Sid lived his first season in Lemieux house

This isn't about guidance but about who our prospects have around them. Detroit, Philly always had good talented core around there youngsters.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Don't really care if we are injured or don't have a great team. I think Dineen gets fired of we lose the next game. Definetely if we lose the next two.

 

[BeezKnees]

This team lacks offense. A TON of it. Even last year we struggled to score 3 goals a game, does no one remember this?

This team is a joke if they think they can solve offensive woes that have lasted here for over a decade through just the draft. We need to make trades and acquire players that are proven NHL scorers.

Right now, you bring a kid in and he will learn NOTHING because there is no one on this team that can score over 60 points in a season. There's no one to learn from in terms of offensive game.

For so long I've been starved for offence on this team. Every single year I beg and I plead, please get us some goal scorers. Get us a TRUE SNIPER. But the every year it's the same old crap. We struggle to score because we ice a roster of 90% grinders.

Drafting Mackinnon does almost nothing for this team because he won't be an impact player with us if he comes to the NHL and has to play with the ELITE TALENT of Shawn Matthias and Jack Skille.

EDIT-And for the inevitable folks who reply and say "and how do you expect to make those trades". Well I expect to make them with our prospects/roster players. We have built this mass of good prospects. What good teams do is trade some of those prospects. They're chips that can be used to acquire proven NHL talent. Look at what the Blue Jays did in baseball this off-season. Built up a ton of prospects and traded a few for proven talent. I know we won't emulate the Jays it's just an example.

We need to trade some prospects, that's the bottom line. If we continuously wait for guys to develop, we will never be a great team.

This is a joke right?

No, just...no.

 

[Prominence Problem]

Don't really care if we are injured or don't have a great team. I think Dineen gets fired of we lose the next game. Definetely if we lose the next two.

You might not care, but Tallon does. This is his man he brought in. He doesn't want to look stupid and fire a guy he brought in last year, that won him our first division title, then fire him 7 games into the season, after being the MOST injured team in the league to start the year.

Dineen said in his post-game interview after the Flyers game that injuries have nothing to do with this. And he is right. Players should be giving a better effort than they are.

But at some point you have to realize that these injuries are rediculous and that we are continuously dressing a less skilled team then our opponet, and its not even close!

 

[PSLguy]

But at some point you have to realize that these injuries are rediculous and that we are continuously dressing a less skilled team then our opponet, and its not even close!

I agree injuries have hurt the team. However, as others have stated, the lack of effort is very disconcerting. It seems to me that once they fall behind the amount of effort drops off considerably. The battles in the corners are being lost and defensive breakdowns happen with alarming frequency.

Shore has played very well. Others have claimed it is due to his being in mid-season AHL form, but why is he winning so many faceoffs? This does not reflect the games he has already played this year.

Hopefully Dineen is addressing this issue. Players need to be a healthy scratch if they do not produce the expected effort. Rather than a trade for trades sake - sit some guys and let the youngsters play, how much worse could they do?

 

[MillarWithASave]

Don't really care if we are injured or don't have a great team. I think Dineen gets fired of we lose the next game. Definetely if we lose the next two.

Dineen isn't getting fired any time soon, if we lose 15 games in a row then maybe. We have had a bad start, that's all.

 

[homegrizown]

this will end up being a throw away season. trades won't happen till the deadline. they'll play this bad till injuries comeback and then struggle with guys trying to play catch up at that point half the season will be over and this team will be to far back. they'll take the loss turn it into a top 5 pick and try to spend some money in the offseason to fit in with the up in coming draft picks.

i really didn't think this team had a shot at the playoffs this year but i didn't think they'd be this bad. it's almost impossible to watch.

 

[Laus723]

Don't really care if we are injured or don't have a great team. I think Dineen gets fired of we lose the next game. Definetely if we lose the next two.

Lol, not happening.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Lol, not happening.

We'll see.

 

[Laus723]

We'll see.

What's you basis? As I said yesterday, he took the team to the playoffs for the first time in a decade and for the umpteenth time...injuries ARE a reality. Hes not going anywhere in the near future.

 

[p9ers]

If Dineen gets fired this organization is beyond stupid.

Last summer people here were touting him for the Jack Adams and now after 6 games he should be canned? That is ludicrous. There is no reason to panick or do some bold(stupid) move to try to shake things up. The chances of making the playoff are really thin even if we trade all our prospect for some offensive talent.

There should be a sticky about taking two long breath before posting.

 

[Dread Clawz]

If Dineen gets fired this organization is beyond stupid.

Last summer people here were touting him for the Jack Adams and now after 6 games he should be canned? That is ludicrous. There is no reason to panick or do some bold(stupid) move to try to shake things up. The chances of making the playoff are really thin even if we trade all our prospect for some offensive talent.

There should be a sticky about taking two long breath before posting.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

If Dineen gets fired this organization is beyond stupid.

Last summer people here were touting him for the Jack Adams and now after 6 games he should be canned? That is ludicrous. There is no reason to panick or do some bold(stupid) move to try to shake things up. The chances of making the playoff are really thin even if we trade all our prospect for some offensive talent.

There should be a sticky about taking two long breath before posting.

Thank you. Agreed.

 

[Madhatter73]

Fatigue, Injuries, lack of pre-season, lack of full training camp, new linemates, one of the most brutal opening schedules in the conference. Whatever it is doesn't matter.

I am not a fan of Dineen's handling of the practices, (35 minutes and 1.5 hours wont do much for getting timing down) but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for two very simple reasons.

1 - This year, no matter who does what, will forever have an asterisk next to it as an anomalous season. Even if we had a miraculous turnaround and made it to the EC finals again, people will stull say "Yeah, but it wasn't a real season. The Panthers still suck."

2 - The next two years are to be the BIG turn-around years for us. This has been Tallon's plan from the beginning. It's when the timing comes together to bring up the talent. It's when the placeholder contracts expire.

It's called playing the long game. It's how true dynasties are born. We tried the coach/GM/player swapping method for the last 10+ years. We all know how that worked out.

In Tallon I trust.

 

[Lampshade85]

Well to be fair Malkin and Crosby have an owner named Lemieux.

Ovechkin? Well...a little guy you might know, Tomas Fleischman, was on the caps his first year. Taught him everything he knows. Then forgot everything.

I don't know if I would consider Fleischman to be that mentor type.

They did play together 25+ games.

Also Sid lived his first season in Lemieux house

This isn't about guidance but about who our prospects have around them. Detroit, Philly always had good talented core around there youngsters.

I find you're argument to be contradicting you first said we needed a top notch player or we'll run prospects like Huberdeau and MacKinnon into the ground and then turn around and say it's not about guidance. The whole point of having a talented core, which we do have, is to guide our young players to be the superstars they are capable of becoming for the future. They don't have to have top notch player to do that, just quality players that have the experience and know-how of what it takes to make the playoffs and win the cup. Which we have.

In any case I don't think I don't think any heads will roll yet after 6 games of a 48 game season. It's too short of a season to have such an overreaction.

 

[ProjectPanthers]

This is a joke right?

No, just...no.

REALLY? REALLY??!?!

So you're telling me every single successful franchise in this league never traded ANY of their top prospects, and built their entire team through the draft before they won the cup? THAT IS A JOKE, RIGHT?!?!

Prospects are for development, but some are also to be used as trade chips. How can you not see that? Every team does it, yet us Panther fans are ****ING OBSESSED with keeping all of our prospects and just praying and hoping they turn out to be great. Well the big news is that NOT ALL PROSPECTS TURN OUT.

I'll give you the Matthias trade for example. We acquired Shawn Matthias when he was still a prospect for Todd Bertuzzi. Well since that trade, Todd Bertuzzi has gone on to score 67 goals and add nearly 200 points since then. Matthias has scored 25 goals and added 60 points total since entering the NHL. Now I know Bert is old and all that but don't you think those 200 points would've been a little bit more of a contribution than Matthias' 60?

Now don't take this literally and think I'm saying we should trade all of our prospects, because that is incredibly dumb. BUT, we have to consider moving a couple of prospects. When you have an abundance of something, you use that strength to help strengthen up weak parts of your game, such as our terribly slow/old defense or our total lack of scoring.

All the great teams do it, ALL OF THEM.

 

[SeasonTicket]

I understand the point you are making regarding some prospects don't turn out and should be used to make the team better if possible. I agree with you.
However you can not go back and compare trades because you really do not know what the managements expectations are for the future of a player.
In the case you mentioned you based your results on total points but you failed to mention that Burt has played 379 games since that trade were Matty has only played 211. Makes a big difference in your comparison. Not to mention that Burt plays on a Great team with great players were Matty plays with the Panthers. Big difference.
But I did agree that you use your assets to improve the team. Prospects are assets to GM's just as roster players are. You use both to make improvements were you can.

Biggest obstacle for the Tallon is that we are not a Cap team but a budget team.

 

[angry_treefrog]

You trade blue chip prospects for players when you have a strong playoff team that you want to push over the top.

You don't trade blue chip prospects for players when you are a bubble team that is counting on the blue chip prospects to become the core that makes you a strong playoff team.