What's with the disrespect of Maurice Richard?

Nerowoy nora tolad

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As an aside, There is that old theory that the NHL suppressed Richards assist numbers and inflated Howe’s. I wonder if an analysis was ever done to test the theory.

Ive never heard of this before. What would the leagues motivation be to do something like that?

- I didn't realize his limitations as a player. Technically, he's the most skilled player in the history of the league up to 1950...perhaps further. He wasn't smartest one though. He played the game fast and worked hard because he had to...you can see in his backchecking and in his playmaking that he wasn't exactly a visionary...but he was better and faster than everyone, so, good luck...

On this topic, Ive always heard it said that the idea that the Rockets chief attribute being speed was wrong; People in the 1940s and 50s thought of chaos and destruction as associated with the term rocket, whereas younger generations assumed it meant speed. Should I take this to mean that your personal eye test of Richard seeemed to indicate that he was fast for his time?

I mean, I have read historical players' takes that the 40s in general (not just the war period) was a 'wilder', freer era of less systematic hockey compared to the 50s/60s. I really don't know how much of that has to do with the war. And why would the League not recover to "quality play" until 1950? I can't think of any reason for that.

This is all coming from memory, so take it with a grain of salt, but I believe its been said that the NHL stars of the 30s and somewhat earlier felt that their era was far superior to the period that came after (roughly the early 40s through to the early 50s?).

In The Game, Dryden has a section where he basically overviews the game in terms of how and why it was played by era from the beginnings of the sport, to the mid 70s. The relevant pages are 243 up to the middle of 256.

According to Drydens research, many felt that the 1930s were significantly more skilled (the passing & playmaking skills of the Cooks for the Rangers are often mentioned), but that in spite of the introduction of the forward pass and the centre red line, (both innovations which were meant to increase offence and creativity) hockey in the 1940s trended strongly towards mindless dump & chase tactics, and issues with relevant parts of the ice being choked with too many bodies are often mentioned. Reading between the lines I get the sense that unmentioned defences got better at defensive skills like covering gaps, positioning, tie-ups.
 

daver

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Because that's where the biased narrative comes from people who want to diminish him and his achievements. That rocket wasn't as talented as we say he was, that he's just lucky to have played in era. He was made and built for his era.

I disrespect current players because they couldn't do what rocket did in terms of playing style in the O6 era.

Why bother responding to narrative that you think is biased? You aren't going to change their minds. Disrespecting other players as a response is no better than "biased narrative".

I think he gets fairly rated in the HOH which is why this thread doesn't make much sense. Any questions about his career would have been talked out in the recent HOH Top 100 project. Sure there may have been an outlier opinion or two but nothing that would make a whole thread about the topic useful.
 

daver

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And if everything got better and faster, leaving Richard behind, why was he still dominating goal-scoring in the post-season up to 1958, just the same as he had in 1944?

This should put to bed any concerns about his numbers from the '40s. He put up dominating #'s in 1950 and 1951 at the age of 29 and 30, had the most goals in 1954 and 1955 at the age of 33 and 34, was still arguably the best after an 11 goal in 10 playoff games in 1958 at the age of 37.

There is a legitimate argument for him being the best goalscorer in the 1950 to 1958 time period. That his competition is Howe at his peak should say a hell of a lot.

With these numbers, I don't think there is any reason to look at his numbers before 1950 when he was in his 20's and go "hmmmm, there just isn't quite right about these numbers, let's dig into them a bit to correct them".
 

The Panther

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The players went to fight in a World War. A world ******* war. That's not like coming home from a long day at the office where you throw your keys down on the counter and pop a couple of Bud Heavies...they went to another continent and faced people trying to kill them in any way possible...you think the players that left there completely unphyscially injured were fine? You think the loss of life was just limited to the NHL...? No minor leaguers? No top prospects? No one quit sports at all after fighting the nazis? Seems unrealistic...I seriously doubt that in 1946, everyone just drove home from Japan and was like, "ok hun, I'm gonna go back on the road for seven months to play a game for a while..."

"K, honey, bring home some milk if you remember!"
Interesting take. I mean, you have to remember this is an era when hockey players didn't make real money. If they wanted their families to eat, they had to play. Players like Milt Schmidt were back in regular form in the autumn of 1945, not missing a beat.

I live in Japan. In Nagasaki in August, 1945, one bank was near the epicenter of the second Atomic Bomb. The windows were of course all blown out, and several employees died. Several survived. The bank re-opened for regular business two days after the bomb.

People were tough then, by necessity.
Weird to pick and choose around to 1958. From 1952 to 1957, he scored a rate worse than Boom Boom, Beliveau, and Lindsay...he did out-goal Floyd Curry by 5 in that time, so...that's something. We can all cherry pick. Is this case it favors my stance.
The fact remains, for the 10 seasons after WWII, Maurice Richard led the NHL in scoring (and in goals by a country kilometer). He was also probably the NHL's best playoff performer of the 1950s (I guess you can argue about Sawchuk).
Sounds good. When in doubt, blame an agenda...an agenda that they must have gotten over so incredibly fast given the Richard and Bouchard voting of 1947...but yeah, '45, the historic season, that was bias...checks out.
I mean, it's pretty obvious there was an anti-French bias in a lot of the NHL's management in the 40s and 50s, particularly after Montreal started getting really good in the early/mid-1940s. There are a lot of stories about "phantom" assists being awarded to Chicago players of that era -- you'll note that Max Bentley won the scoring title over Richard in 1947 by one point. That season, btw, Richard had 50% more goals than the second-best guy in the League. This is two years after the war.

Re: Hart voting, I don't think what I'm suggesting is ridiculous. It's quite common for a younger player, after his first season or two break-out, to be undervalued by voters and fans. Especially in that era. Then, after a few years of the player being elite, opinion changes and the player gets the respect deserved. My guess is that if Richard had scored 50 goals in 50 games in, say, 1948, he would have won the Hart even if Lach had the scoring title.

Anyway, it's not like Richard is lacking in hardware or accolades in a retrospective fashion -- he'd have 5 'Richard' awards (ha,ha), and probably two Conn Smythes. Take away the Chicago phantom assists and the suspension of Richard with three games left in '55 and he has two scoring titles.

Let's look at the playoffs from 1949 to 1958 -- this period encompasses Gordie Howe's prime years on the powerful Detroit team. In goals-per-game, Richard is basically in a dead-heat for these years with the younger Jean Beliveau, and is quite a bit ahead of Gordie Howe. (Howe, of course, produces more points per game.)

It's clear that Maurice Richard was one of the handful of most elite players between 1950 and 1958... Do you agree that this period is after WWII...?
 
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Michael Farkas

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The ones that died or were otherwise maimed, did not return to work two days after their country was melted. You can cite a couple examples of players immediately stepping back into the league after a long time away and being great - which might speak to the greatness of that player or the weakness of the league, take your choice. Still no account for farm system players and prospects has been given here either. Nor, how much account we have for a team that largely stayed together and did not have any acclimation process as a unit.

I'm not here to suggest that Maurice Richard was Evander Kane. You asked a question, this is the answer as I see it.

"Take away the Chicago phantom assists" suggests that we know for a fact that they had been added in the first place. How one can add a conspiracy theory to the mix and then remove it to their own benefit is banana land haha

Yes, I would agree that the period roughly after 1950 is post-War time...I wish there was a little more footage of the 40's available to be even more sure, but from what I have seen, the league is still messy and unkempt throughout most of the 40's...
 

JackSlater

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It really shouldn't need to be discussed that much that the NHL was weaker during the latter stages of WW2 and also in the years that followed. You had players who actually served in the war like Schmidt, other players like Hextall and Abel who were in Canada but unable to play in the NHL, who missed significant time in an era where training opportunities outside of playing and practicing with your NHL team were far rarer than they would be today. You can see what happened with a lot of these players when they rejoined the NHL and weren't as good. I'm not sure that the NHL was ever weaker than it was in 1944 and 1945. I also imagine that development opportunities for young players were hindered somewhat as resources and coaches (or other personnel) were devoted to WW2, at least for the players who were nearing NHL age who weren't sent to actually fight. 10% of Canada's population was involved with the military during WW2, disproportionately young men who would have been around prime hockey playing age. It's beyond a stretch to think that this wouldn't have significantly impacted the NHL at the time and in the years that followed.

None of this makes Richard better or worse because a player is a player regardless of who they play against, but it is the context surrounding some of his achievements in the early stages of his career. I'm sure that various biases existed, as they always do, but when it comes to things like Lach winning the Hart after handily outscoring Richard and likely providing better defence as well I'm not sure that anyone can confidently suggest that Lach didn't deserve to win.
 

Neutrinos

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I've actually been thinking about Richard quite a bit recently as a prime example of how flawed the process is when it comes to ranking players all-time

Richard is often considered a top 10 player all-time, whereas Bure can't even crack the top 100

But if Richard and Bure were to have swapped places, I'm far more confident that Bure would have duplicated or surpassed Richard's totals than I am of Richard's ability to produce 60 goal seasons during the 90's
 
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The Macho King

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I've actually been thinking about Richard quite a bit recently as a prime example of how flawed the process is when it comes to ranking players all-time

Richard is often considered a top 10 player all-time, whereas Bure can't even crack the top 100

But if Richard and Bure were to have swapped places, I'm far more confident that Bure would have duplicated or surpassed Richard's totals than I am of Richard's ability to produce 60 goal seasons during the 90's
...

Not this shit again. Every thread about an old player is "put him in the 90s and see how he does".

Bure wouldn't play in the NHL in the 40s because he was in the Soviet Union, likely would have been drafted into the military, and might have died at Stalingrad or during Barbarossa. There. Richard wins.
 

daver

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...

Not this **** again. Every thread about an old player is "put him in the 90s and see how he does".

Bure wouldn't play in the NHL in the 40s because he was in the Soviet Union, likely would have been drafted into the military, and might have died at Stalingrad or during Barbarossa. There. Richard wins.

I see Pavel as joining the Communist Party early on and craftily making his way up the ranks where he wouldn't be drafted but does get caught up in Stalin's purge. Again, Richard wins.
 

MXD

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"Take away the Chicago phantom assists" suggests that we know for a fact that they had been added in the first place. How one can add a conspiracy theory to the mix and then remove it to their own benefit is banana land haha

From what I remember, assists were given very generously in Chicago (to the BlackHawks at least). 1949 was the most egregious season (like, it's really obvious), and 1947 and 1948 were problematic, too. Richard was nowhere close to the Art Ross in 1949, and neither in 1948 mind you, but it's not a stretch at all to suggest that, had the Blackhawks assist count would've been more in line with the reminder of the NHL, he could've finished T-4th (he ended up T-7th), due to M. Bentley, D. Bentley and B. Poile being in really close range. Also, keep in the mind that the Blackhawks scored A LOT of goals for a team ranked last in the league.

In 1947, well... The Blackhawks were awarded 1.35 assists/goal, while the Habs were awarded 1.26. That might seem insignificant... but, putting the Hawks assist count on par with the Canadiens assist count would result in 17 less assists for the Hawks.

Max Bentley, who won the Art Ross, had 16,5% of the Hawks assists in 1947. 16,5% of those 17 substracted assists equals to 2,8 assists.

Let's be kind to Bentley, and only substract 2 assists.

End result : Maurice Richard wins the Art Ross.
 
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The Macho King

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From what I remember, assists were given very generously in Chicago (to the BlackHawks at least). 1949 was the most egregious season (like, it's really obvious), and 1947 and 1948 were problematic, too. Richard was nowhere close to the Art Ross in 1949, and neither in 1948 mind you, but it's not a stretch at all to suggest that, had the Blackhawks assist count would've been more in line with the reminder of the NHL, he could've finished 4th, due to M. Bentley, D. Bentley and B. Poile being in really close range. Also, keep in the mind that the Blackhawks scored A LOT of goals for a team ranked last in the league.

In 1947, well... The Blackhawks were awarded 1.35 assists/goal, while the Habs were awarded 1.26. That might seem insignificant... but, putting the Hawks assist count on par with the Canadiens assist count would result in 17 less assists for the Hawks.

Max Bentley, who won the Art Ross, had 16,5% of the Hawks assists in 1947. 16,5% of those 17 substracted assists equals to 2,8 assists.

Let's be kind to Bentley, and only substract 2 assists.

End result : Maurice Richard wins the Art Ross.
TBF there could be reasons for getting more assists/goal based on how teams played. I could see a team that relied more on a guy just streaking down the wing and beating the goaltender getting fewer assists than a team that relies more on cycling/puck movement, for instance.

Do we have the numbers for assists/goal per team today? What sort of spread is there from most/least?
 

MXD

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TBF there could be reasons for getting more assists/goal based on how teams played. I could see a team that relied more on a guy just streaking down the wing and beating the goaltender getting fewer assists than a team that relies more on cycling/puck movement, for instance.

That would mean that more "credit" would be given following Blackhawks goal for all of these seasons (... and they were also scoring LOTS of goals for such an awful team).

As for the assists/goal number... I'm QUITE certain @seventieslord did something about this. Not to mention, there are legit reasons to be skeptical here (due to reports of phantom assists - strictly talking about the Hawks here). When the numbers aligns with the reports, it probably means the report is at least grounded on something.
 
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MXD

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To be honest, this Richard/Bentley situation is basically why winning an Art Ross is, in and of itself, of extremely little value at the very best. Maurice Richard could easily have ended up with 2 Art Ross, and that wouldn't change a single thing to what he was as a player.
 

The Macho King

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To be honest, this Richard/Bentley situation is basically why winning an Art Ross is, in and of itself, of extremely little value at the very best. Maurice Richard could easily have ended up with 2 Art Ross, and that wouldn't change a single thing to what he was as a player.
I mean - same with Bourque losing the Hart to Messier by like... one vote or something.

I agree - trophy counting is a pointless exercise. Some seasons that don't get a top 3 Hart finish or a top 3 scoring finish are better than seasons that win Harts/Rosses outright. Would anyone say that McDavid's season last year (I think he ended up third in scoring after Kucherov and Kane, but if I'm wrong just swap the comparison with Kane) wasn't better than Benn's Art Ross year?
 

seventieslord

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If there's real reason to believe that one team was getting more assists than the rest, or that one was getting fewer, that's something that really is worth considering. Whether a difference of 0.28 assists per team per game is significant or worthwhile or not, needs more context. For example, for the rest of the 6-12 team era (1926-1970) what was the typical spread in assists per goal from the most to the least? Is it always super tight or were variances this wide common? If so, was it always the same teams getting shafted or getting phantom points? If there was a pattern it can be proven. But it could also just be the way a team played, and/or statistical variance explaining it.
 

Michael Farkas

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I did a quick broad sweep, someone else with better abilities can probably do faster/better/more detailed...

1929-30 to 1965-66 (I don't know why that last date, probably should have cut it sooner...I don't know when the alleged Richard bias died out for everyone)...

Chicago Home: 3102 goals / 1.60 assists per goal
Chicago Road: 2672 goals / 1.42 assists per goal

Montreal Home: 3776 goals / 1.56 assists per goal
Montreal Road: 2717 goals / 1.38 assists per goal
 

MXD

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I did a quick broad sweep, someone else with better abilities can probably do faster/better/more detailed...

1929-30 to 1965-66 (I don't know why that last date, probably should have cut it sooner...I don't know when the alleged Richard bias died out for everyone)...

Chicago Home: 3102 goals / 1.60 assists per goal
Chicago Road: 2672 goals / 1.42 assists per goal

Montreal Home: 3776 goals / 1.56 assists per goal
Montreal Road: 2717 goals / 1.38 assists per goal

It seems to me that the numbers might be very close if the 2nd part of the 40'ies was to be removed from this calculation...
 

seventieslord

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I did a quick broad sweep, someone else with better abilities can probably do faster/better/more detailed...

1929-30 to 1965-66 (I don't know why that last date, probably should have cut it sooner...I don't know when the alleged Richard bias died out for everyone)...

Chicago Home: 3102 goals / 1.60 assists per goal
Chicago Road: 2672 goals / 1.42 assists per goal

Montreal Home: 3776 goals / 1.56 assists per goal
Montreal Road: 2717 goals / 1.38 assists per goal

Good point, I never thought about home/road splits, that probably (though not definitely, depending on how thorough the conspiracy was) tells the story.

I would have been very surprised to find out Chicago had 0.18 more assists per goal at home over such a long sample, and very suspicious of them, if the numbers hadn't also shown Montreal to be subject to the same phenomenon. This is very strange - any legit reason for this to be happening? And was it across the board? as in not just Montreal and Chicago? is it still happening today? (I highly doubt it)
 

Sentinel

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Now let me ask you this: can / will Ovechkin pass Richard?

Ovechkin has 3 Harts to Richard's 1, 1 Art Ross to Richard's 0, and 8 (possibly 9), well, Richards to Richard's 5.

Sure, Richard beats Ovechkin in playoff goalscoring, but we all know Ovy was / is no slouch in that department either. That leaves... what, Cups?
 

The Macho King

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Now let me ask you this: can / will Ovechkin pass Richard?

Ovechkin has 3 Harts to Richard's 1, 1 Art Ross to Richard's 0, and 8 (possibly 9), well, Richards to Richard's 5.

Sure, Richard beats Ovechkin in playoff goalscoring, but we all know Ovy was / is no slouch in that department either. That leaves... what, Cups?
Richard is where he is because of his consistency of excellence in the playoffs while not being a negative defensively. Ovi is a net negative defensively with basically two good playoff runs over his entire career.

I'm fairly low on the Rocket myself, but I don't think Ovi has passed him.
 

MXD

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Now let me ask you this: can / will Ovechkin pass Richard?

Ovechkin has 3 Harts to Richard's 1, 1 Art Ross to Richard's 0, and 8 (possibly 9), well, Richards to Richard's 5.

Sure, Richard beats Ovechkin in playoff goalscoring, but we all know Ovy was / is no slouch in that department either. That leaves... what, Cups?

I don't think he passed him (but he can absolutely do so)... But that starts with playoffs.
 

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