OT: What's so great about Nathan Horton?

[mukluks]

Because you're the only one who watches hockey games outside of the Wings?

Nathan Horton:

2012/13 - 43 GP, 41 hits
2011/12 - 46 GP, 32 hits
2010/11 - 80 GP, 74 hits
2009/10 - 65 GP, 34 hits

Johan Franzen:

2012/13 - 41 GP, 43 hits
2011/12 - 77 GP, 60 hits
2010/11 - 76 GP, 143 hits
2009/10 - 27 GP, 46 hits

So Horton's more physical than Franzen?

In the past four years alone, Franzen's been producing at a rate of over a hit per game, where Horton has never accomplished that in the past four years. So, please enlighten me.

Horton goes to the dirty areas more, plays a tougher game, uses his size really well to control the puck, battles harder than Franzen to keep it too. I guess my definition of a physical player is different than yours. Hits are nice and all but hardly the only indicator.

p.s. your reaction to my original post was a little over the top, chill out a little.

 

[Dats Y]

Horton goes to the dirty areas more, plays a tougher game, uses his size really well to control the puck, battles harder than Franzen to keep it too. I guess my definition of a physical player is different than yours. Hits are nice and all but hardly the only indicator.

p.s. your reaction to my original post was a little over the top, chill out a little.

Admittedly, I am quite drunk, just got back from the bar and lost $500 in betting money for my pool. I didn't mean to offend you - that was a general comment to anyone suggesting Horton was a "physical" player, built up after days of hearing people go on about him.

Horton elevates his game in the playoffs, it's not a good indicator of his typical play. In the regular season, he's more of a passenger who is inconsistent in going into the dirty areas and doesn't battle nearly as often. However, he does use his size well to control the puck. Franzen is no slouch either though, perhaps he's lost a bit of his edge in the last couple years, but he still goes into the corners battling for the puck and does a decent job of controlling it as well.

 

[mukluks]

Admittedly, I am quite drunk, just got back from the bar and lost $500 in betting money for my pool. I didn't mean to offend you - that was a general comment to anyone suggesting Horton was a "physical" player, built up after days of hearing people go on about him.

Horton elevates his game in the playoffs, it's not a good indicator of his typical play. In the regular season, he's more of a passenger who is inconsistent in going into the dirty areas and doesn't battle nearly as often. However, he does use his size well to control the puck. Franzen is no slouch either though, perhaps he's lost a bit of his edge in the last couple years, but he still goes into the corners battling for the puck and does a decent job of controlling it as well.

Bold = good thing.

Like I said he is not overly physical but I believe he would be a good addition to the team for a multitude of reasons.

All's good.

 

[Brick Top]

As mentioned several times in this thread, Horton at 5.5-6 mil/year will be a poor investment relative to Franzen at below 4 mil/year (if we're comparing the two only).

Gotta keep in mind when the respective contracts were/are signed, and the cap limits and rules in place at the time. Horton can't get the cap-circumventing deal that Franzen got, so I think $5.5-$6M is comparable b/c you can't add the throw-away years on the end of a deal for Horton that Franzen got.

Admittedly, I am quite drunk, just got back from the bar and lost $500 in betting money for my pool.

Honesty is always appreciated on this board! And granted, your BAC may be a tad over the legal limit right now, but I sincerely hope that you only lost some $$ playing pool and didn't somehow lose your pool in a bet (must be above ground, and would seem to be a real pain in the ass to pay that bet off).

 

[Flowah]

Because you're the only one who watches hockey games outside of the Wings?

Nathan Horton:

2012/13 - 43 GP, 41 hits
2011/12 - 46 GP, 32 hits
2010/11 - 80 GP, 74 hits
2009/10 - 65 GP, 34 hits

Johan Franzen:

2012/13 - 41 GP, 43 hits
2011/12 - 77 GP, 60 hits
2010/11 - 76 GP, 143 hits
2009/10 - 27 GP, 46 hits

So Horton's more physical than Franzen?

In the past four years alone, Franzen's been producing at a rate of over a hit per game, where Horton has never accomplished that in the past four years. So, please enlighten me.

Aren't hits done by arena and therefore generally unreliable.

 

[Dats Y]

Gotta keep in mind when the respective contracts were/are signed, and the cap limits and rules in place at the time. Horton can't get the cap-circumventing deal that Franzen got, so I think $5.5-$6M is comparable b/c you can't add the throw-away years on the end of a deal for Horton that Franzen got.

Still, if fans are complaining about Franzen's production and what he brings to the game at his salary, in no way will they be happier if we sign Horton at 5.5-6mil either. Horton would be a case of buyer's remorse since many are looking for a forward with size, toughness and the ability to drop the gloves (and can also play a regular shift). At that description, we'd be better off investing in Bickell, Clarkson or Clowe (again only between 3-4 mil though).

Honesty is always appreciated on this board! And granted, your BAC may be a tad over the legal limit right now, but I sincerely hope that you only lost some $$ playing pool and didn't somehow lose your pool in a bet (must be above ground, and would seem to be a real pain in the ass to pay that bet off).

Oh I meant in my playoff pool...it was on a bracket and on players, $250 for each and I'm set to lose both...the 8-10 pints is making things seem slightly better. Either that or I'm becoming delusional...

 

[Dats Y]

Aren't hits done by arena and therefore generally unreliable.

I wouldn't say so, they're confirmed and updated live by ESPN, nhl.com and yahoo sports as well (they all follow the games live). There may be some bias in what a hit is, but it's largely accurate.

 

[Dats Y]

Bold = good thing.

Like I said he is not overly physical but I believe he would be a good addition to the team for a multitude of reasons.

All's good.

Fair enough. I'd just rather spend the money on re-signing Brunner and on a cheaper option that can actually plays with toughness, physicality and can drop the gloves on a consistent basis.

 

[ThankYouBasedGod]

I wouldn't say so, they're confirmed and updated live by ESPN, nhl.com and yahoo sports as well (they all follow the games live). There may be some bias in what a hit is, but it's largely accurate.

All those sites take the stat from the same source. Stats like hits, giveaways, takeaways ETC. are definitely unreliable. Some arenas are more generous than others.

 

[Dats Y]

All those sites take the stat from the same source. Stats like hits, giveaways, takeaways ETC. are definitely unreliable. Some arenas are more generous than others.

On that basis, TD Garden is fairly generous when calculating hits based on the accumulation of them by a lot of the players on their team (they are more physical as a whole though). Outside of Abdelkader, the Wings are below average in the league in hits, which is a fairly accurate reflection of the on-ice product.

Thus, it only further takes away from the discussion of Horton being a "physical" player.

 

[Hckytwn]

Not sure why we're focusing on hits. If that was important, we'd have played Tootoo more. Horton is a goal scorer, has some size and steps his game up in the playoffs. I haven't seen him shy away from any area of the ice this post season and he wins puck battles more often than not. The concussions seem like his biggest concern, not his grit.

I like Horton, Bickell, Clarkson and Clowe--and hope we land one--but they all have issues/concerns. None of them is a Shanahan; there's a decent amount of risk with each of them.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Have to agree with the drunk guy. I don't think Horton is that physical. He's Canadian and he was a lot more scrappy when he was down here with the Panthers, but not so much now. I think a combination of Julien, the concussions and having more fighters on his team to do that stuff has got him to tone out the fisticuffs. Horton has some attitude and some snarl, but he keeps it in check more now than he did in his younger days. I think a lot of opinions on him were formed years ago, people buying into what he was supposed to be or expected to be. Mind you he's a damn good hockey player, but he's not the power forward Florida thought they had and Panther fans thought they were losing years ago.

Here in Florida he had a rep as a real problem in the locker room, but I think that has passed now that he's with a winning and more experienced team and has some goodleadership and maturity under his belt.
Like many are saying; I like Horton, like what he brings, but I think the 6M range is far too steep.

 

[Hckytwn]

I could be wrong, but I just don't see him getting 6M+. Not this year. Too little money, too few buyers, too many players available.

 

[Henkka]

Have to agree with the drunk guy. I don't think Horton is that physical. He's Canadian and he was a lot more scrappy when he was down here with the Panthers, but not so much now. I think a combination of Julien, the concussions and having more fighters on his team to do that stuff has got him to tone out the fisticuffs. Horton has some attitude and some snarl, but he keeps it in check more now than he did in his younger days. I think a lot of opinions on him were formed years ago, people buying into what he was supposed to be or expected to be. Mind you he's a damn good hockey player, but he's not the power forward Florida thought they had and Panther fans thought they were losing years ago.

Here in Florida he had a rep as a real problem in the locker room, but I think that has passed now that he's with a winning and more experienced team and has some goodleadership and maturity under his belt.
Like many are saying; I like Horton, like what he brings, but I think the 6M range is far too steep.

He does not have to be physical. Just be big, play big, win those puck in the corners and drive to net. He is as physical as Tomas Holmström was.

But 6 million is of course too much. Something with five.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'd be ok with 6 if it was for 3 years or something like that.

3x6mil is better for me on Horton than 6x5 mil.

 

[mindfly]

Don't underestimate the right-hand shot as well.. Clowe, Penner etc are all Lefties

 

[Soft Rock Renegade]

I could be wrong, but I just don't see him getting 6M+. Not this year. Too little money, too few buyers, too many players available.

he might, but like flip, it'll be from a non-contender trying to get above the cap floor

 

[Frk It]

If people demonize Franzen for scoring 25-30 goals a season and getting paid $4 million a season, how are they going to react to Horton putting up the same numbers at $5.5-$6 million per season?

Not saying we don't need him. I think he would look great wearing the Winged wheel. I just don't know if he is worth the price he is going to command in the offseason.

Real simple solution.

Sign 28 year old Horton.

Get rid of 33 year old Franzen.

 

[Henkka]

Real simple solution.

Sign 28 year old Horton.

Get rid of 33 year old Franzen.

No. Of course you keep them both.

 

[Frk It]

No. Of course you keep them both.

Well if you had to choose for some reason, like I don't know, say a salary cap, I would pick Horton over Franzen given their age.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

That the UFA list is terrible this year.

 

[Hckytwn]

That the UFA list is terrible this year.

It is, but it'll expand pretty rapidly with the buyouts. Who knows which players will actually be let go, but the speculation includes names (if healthy) like Richards, Briere, Lecavalier, Heatley, Havlat, Horcoff, Wisnewski, Ballard, etc.

I expect the trade front to be active too. Should be one of the best off-seasons, as far as movement goes, in memory.

 

[Heaton]

Real simple solution.

Sign 28 year old Horton.

Get rid of 33 year old Franzen.

3.9m cap hit or 6m cap hit for the same production?

 

[Hckytwn]

3.9m cap hit or 6m cap hit for the same production?

Yeah, makes no sense. Not sure why folks keep talking about a Franzen buyout. Sure, he's inconsistent, but he scores and he's cheap.

 

[Frk It]

3.9m cap hit or 6m cap hit for the same production?

28 years old, or 33 years old?

Righty or lefty?

Sign someone to a 4-5 year contract, or pay them until 2020?

If it's the difference of 1 or 1.5 mil (4 for Franzen compared to 5 or 5.5 for Horton), then I'll go with Horton.

6 million seems like a lot for Horton, if he could be had closer to 5 I would do it in a heartbeat.