What would the discourse be like if Gretzky and Orr were both in the league at the same time?

[blundluntman]

We all know how rampant the great vs great debates are. You have Gretz vs Lemieux, Crosby vs Ovi, Crosby vs McDavid, etc. But I was wondering what it would be like if Gretzky and Orr both entered their peaks at the exact same time.

I wonder if Gretzky, known for his unbelievable Offensive dominance as a 200+ point player would be scrutinized for his "single-minded approach to offense" when compared to a 130+ point Bobby Orr who would also be a top 5 defensive defenseman in the league. We've seen people detract from McDavid in debates vs Crosby by saying Crosby is more well-rounded and that McDavid needs to focus on defense. I wonder if debates between Gretzky and Orr would have a similar nature.

I personally find those kinds of discussions to be pretty fruitless at times as they tend to focus on tearing down a particular player. But as a fan of sports, I also realize it's just inevitable.

How do you think the discourse would go? And do you think either player would have an edge over the other? Let's assume Orr's peak from 1969-1975 happens at the exact same time as Gretzky's peak from 1981-1987.

Orr

1969–70	Boston Bruins	NHL	76	33	87	120	125	14	9	11	20	14
1970–71	Boston Bruins	NHL	78	37	102	139	91	7	5	7	12	25
1971–72	Boston Bruins	NHL	76	37	80	117	106	15	5	19	24	19
1972–73	Boston Bruins	NHL	63	29	72	101	99	5	1	1	2	7
1973–74	Boston Bruins	NHL	74	32	90	122	82	16	4	14	18	28
1974–75	Boston Bruins	NHL	80	46	89	135	101	3	1	5	6	2

Gretzky

1981–82	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	80	92	120	212	26	+81	18	6	12	5	5	7	12	8
1982–83	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	80	71	125	196	59	+60	18	6	9	16	12	26	38	4
1983–84	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	74	87	118	205	39	+76	20	12	11	19	13	22	35	12
1984–85	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	80	73	135	208	52	+98	8	11	7	18	17	30	47	4
1985–86	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	80	52	163	215	46	+71	11	3	6	10	8	11	19	2
1986–87	Edmonton Oilers	NHL	79	62	121	183	28	+70	13	7	4	21	5	29	34	6

Click to read more...

 

[Midnight Judges]

JMO but Orr would have been completely overshadowed by Gretzky - no different from every other hockey player on planet Earth.

Even in Orr's own time he was ranked below two or more players in all but 3 seasons by the Hart voters. The players who were regarded as having topped some of Orr's peak seasons were Phil Esposito, Bobby Clarke, Bernie Parent, an old Jean Beliveau, Rogie Vachon - none of whom are remotely close to putting up the peak seasons that Wayne Gretzky did.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Completely depends on who is being transported to which era.

Gretzky in the 60's and 70's is probably deliberately injured and faces a far more physical game with shallower scoring totals. Orr in the 80's and he's pushing 150 points given he's vastly superior to Coffey, a POOR man's version of Orr.

Gretzky is the GOAT, but Orr is the most valuable player, at his respective peak. Nobody dominated the game at both ends the way Orr did. The advanced metrics bear it out, with Howe being the only real challenger.

 

[MadLuke]

depend almost purely who wins the cup, at least impossible to speculate about the discourse without knowing.

Considering Orr Hart track record, if Gretzky win more cups we can safely assume it goes toward Judges sentiment.

If Orr teams win the cups, it will go toward Orr complete game win championship, Esposito the real leader get it done, etc....

The discourse with be made in a ad-hoc way to make it match who wins, if they are close in championship never ending debate follow.

 

[blundluntman]

Completely depends on who is being transported to which era.

Gretzky in the 60's and 70's is probably deliberately injured and faces a far more physical game with shallower scoring totals. Orr in the 80's and he's pushing 150 points given he's vastly superior to Coffey, a POOR man's version of Orr.

Gretzky is the GOAT, but Orr is the most valuable player, at his respective peak. Nobody dominated the game at both ends the way Orr did. The advanced metrics bear it out, with Howe being the only real challenger.

That's a good point as far as eras go. I agree that Orr would likely have scored even more during the 80s in his prime. Let's just assume both players started in the 80s. We can assume Orr would score more and compare the speculated totals

depend almost purely who wins the cup, at least impossible to speculate about the discourse without knowing.

Considering Orr Hart track record, if Gretzky win more cups we can safely assume it goes toward Judges sentiment.

If Orr teams win the cups, it will go toward Orr complete game win championship, Esposito the real leader get it done, etc....

The discourse with in a ad-hoc way make it match who win, if they are close in championship never ending debate follow.

Let's just assume both players won cups and smythes like they did in these time periods. Orr has 2 of each, Gretz has 2 cups and 1 smythe.

 

[MadLuke]

2 v 2 cups, infinite debate could have followed forever, the Esposito vs Gretzky make you wonder in that context, would it have existed, specially if Esposito had to go throught Montreal to wins his cups more often (or Mtl + gretzky).

 

[Overrated]

adding 80/81 is unfair to Gretzky

Gretzky would likely score more points a decade earlier too

 

[Overrated]

JMO but Orr would have been completely overshadowed by Gretzky - no different from every other hockey player on planet Earth.

Even in Orr's own time he was ranked below two or more players in all but 3 seasons by the Hart voters. The players who regarded as having topped some of Orr's peak seasons were Phil Esposito, Bobby Clarke, Bernie Parent, an old Jean Beliveau, Rogie Vachon - none of whom are remotely close to putting up the peak seasons that Wayne Gretzky did.

only proves how Hart votes should never be used as a proxy for skill or ability

I do agree however that Gretzky would likely be viewed as superior

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Wouldn't Gretky's 6 year peak be from 1982 to 1987?

 

[blundluntman]

adding 80/81 is unfair to Gretzky

Gretzky would likely score more points a decade earlier too

Wouldn't Gretky's 6 year peak be from 1982 to 1987?

You're both right, I've changed it to 81-87

 

[Dingo]

I dont think Orr would have necessarily scored more had he come along ten years later. League scoring went up, but a lot of that is league depth. For every highscoring team in the early 70s, there were 4 teams, filled with players who have been all but forgotten. Its even possible that Orr wouldve been on a less stacked team, as parity, as poor as it was in the 80s was probably still better.

Boston 8, California 0 comes to a total number of goals that would be normal today.

We dont need a time machine, though, just Orr's knees being healthy. He wouldve have been 31 in Gretzky's rookie season, and ya, I do believe the arguing wouldve been much as it is now - people hyperbolizing strengths and weaknesses in order to push 'their guy'

at least it would have had more substance than the 'Trottier is better than Wayne' stuff that actually did exist in real time.

 

[MadLuke]

at least it would have had more substance than the 'Trottier is better than Wayne' stuff that actually did exist in real time.

Wait until Lafleur get back !

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky had such a killer instinct.

If Gretzky had 200 points and ~80+ goals in a year head to head with Orr's peak - and if Orr won the hart above him? I honestly wouldn't put it past Gretzky to somehow come back the next year and score 100 goals and 230 points just to prove he's the best.

I think Gretzky still prevails.

The other thing Gretzky has over Orr is playoffs. Has Gretzky ever disappointed in playoffs? Especially in his prime/peak? He always produced insane numbers, and also led his team to 4 cups. Orr had insane playoff peaks, but also a few down years, unlike Gretzky. Assuming nothing changes in this alternate universe, that's another big edge to Gretzky

 

[VanIslander]

Gretzky has by far the most NHL goals.

Ovechkin is chasing him down. OV has natural talent, i.e., an easy shot whereas Wayne spent years trying to shoot better, knowing he hadn't the "natural" talent for it.

Sakic flicked his wrist and goals went top corner but Gretzky slapped pucks off jerseys.

People like to think Gretzky's skill was physical but i truly believe it was all mental. As Messier said:" I want his brain in my body. He knows what's what."

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

As far as eras go, if 1970 Orr, Espo and the Bruins played in the Oilers 80s era, the most interesting question to me would be, how much does Orr and Espo and the other Bruins presence change the 80s NHL and, with that, the Oilers overall output and playing style?

I would think we see even more goals out of Coffey for starters.

 

[Crosby2010]

I think a lot of it depends on who is winning the Cups. Personally I just think Gretzky's numbers are too hard to ignore on the grand scale. 200+ points still tops 130 as a defenseman in my mind. And I mean a defenseman who played well all around even.

But if Gretzky's Oilers are winning Cups at the expense of the Esposito/Orr Bruins, then I think it elevates Gretzky.

 

[Calderon]

Orr's star would be dimmer, I imagine. The Art Rosses would be distant dreams and he'd have a worthy offensive rival in Coffey (although we can probably award Orr a little more points in the 80s scoring environment; certainly it can be argued that Coffey doesn't become who he was if Orr is his contemporary instead of a predecessor).

Orr would probably still win one or multiple Harts which would diminish Gretzky's dominance a bit. Wayne not having an offensive peer would still remain as fact and given the consistent playoff success any criticism for lack of defensive game would remain an afterthought.

 

[Staniowski]

Of course there would be some differences, but it would be essentially the same. Orr and Gretzky were great players, and they would be the same great players if they were the same age (rather than 13 years apart in age).

One other thing to consider, and it's unique to these eras, is that many of the best players in the world were not playing in the NHL, and this could also somewhat affect the perceptions of these players. For example, in the first-half of the 1980s, arguably 3 of the 5 best players in the world - Fetisov, Makarov, Krutov - weren't playing in the NHL. When people saw them play, there were some people who thought Fetisov was actually better than Gretzky. And Makarov was easily the 2nd-best scorer during that period, and he arguably out-played Gretzky over the combined 3 Canada Cups of the 1980s.

Same, of course, for Orr in the first-half of the 1970s.

 

[tinyzombies]

Gretzky better be careful with that behind the net business. If Orr gets that puck he's gone.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Completely depends on who is being transported to which era.

Gretzky in the 60's and 70's is probably deliberately injured and faces a far more physical game with shallower scoring totals. Orr in the 80's and he's pushing 150 points given he's vastly superior to Coffey, a POOR man's version of Orr.

Gretzky is the GOAT, but Orr is the most valuable player, at his respective peak. Nobody dominated the game at both ends the way Orr did. The advanced metrics bear it out, with Howe being the only real challenger.

I'd say the opposite. Gretzky playing in the extremely watered down late '60's / early '70's dominates even more. It's not like he wasn't faced with a bevy of dangerous physical players in the 1980's either. He'd always have a Semenko or McSorley and crew riding shotgun.

Orr in the 1980's would be facing tougher competition against more skilled opponents. But, on the right team, he'd still put up Coffey type points (while playing better defence)... and probably still be thought of as easily the best defenceman playing.

 

[wetcoast]

depend almost purely who wins the cup, at least impossible to speculate about the discourse without knowing.

Yet we would still be evaluating each player but teams always muddle this question for some strange reason.

Considering Orr Hart track record, if Gretzky win more cups we can safely assume it goes toward Judges sentiment.

If Orr teams win the cups, it will go toward Orr complete game win championship, Esposito the real leader get it done, etc....

The discourse with in a ad-hoc way make it match who win, if they are close in championship never ending debate follow.

It probably might shake out this way but it really depends where and when and who the coaches are for either player ect.....

Even more interesting would be what if they played for the same team at the same time?

 

[tinyzombies]

Orr was 32 in 1980. It’s not like he played in another era.