What would an all-time best on best tournament look like?

[Professor What]

So, I haven't gotten as far as putting together rosters or anything like that, because this just came to my mind, but if we could have an all-time international best on best tournament, who would play in it, and what would the outcome be?

I'd think that Canada would be the favorites to win it, but could a Russian team with some of the Soviet greats at least give them a challenge? How would the US look? Would the recent increase in talent from the States make the team more competitive? How many countries could make a decent showing?

Click to read more...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well Canada would obviously win considering they remain the top hockey producing nation and have a massive headstart in terms of pulling back in time. Russia perhaps second with some of the stronger Soviets blended with Russian NHL talent. USA, Sweden and Finland don't have enough multi-generations to pull back from.

 

[Crosby2010]

Canada would still have the majority of the NHL stars in history. So they would be the heavy favourites. Here is a roster just for the heck of it.

Hull-Gretzky-Howe
Mahovlich-Lemieux-Richard
Lindsay-Beliveau-Lafleur
Messier-Crosby-Bossy
Esposito

Orr-Bourque
Shore-Coffey
Potvin-Harvey
Robinson

Roy
Brodeur
Plante/Sawchuk

Yeah, that teams winning. What line do you even check? You can mix it up a bit and see who complements each other the best, for example as much as we'd love to see Gretzky and Howe it could also make sense for Gretzky to have a guy like Bossy as his trigger man (a la Kurri).

Also, imagine not finding room for Red Kelly. Or Glenn Hall. Or Stan Mikita or Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic.

 

[MadLuke]

Depending on the tourney structure, there would not be necessarily anything certain against an All-time soviet-Russia on international ice dimensions and referees, USA, Sweden team, if you have to win the game against Hasek one night who knows.

IF it is some best of 7 or 8 game final series and no sudden death to reach the final structure, Canada could be scary, Gretzky-Lemieux-Orr-McDavid-Makar together.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hull (1939)-Gretzky (1961)-Howe (1928)
Mahovlich (1946)-Lemieux (1965)-Richard (1921)
Lindsay (1925)-Beliveau (1931)-Lafleur (1951)
Messier (1961)-Crosby (1987)-Bossy (1957)
Esposito (1942)

Orr (1948)-Bourque (1960)
Shore (1902)-Coffey (1961)
Potvin (1953)-Harvey (1924)
Robinson (1951)

Roy (1965)
Brodeur (1972)
Plante/Sawchuk (1929)

My only complaint here is that the generational distribution "feels" off to me.

Ten players born 1951-1965
Two players born 1966-1997 (a backup goaltender and a 4th line center, you can compress the end date here for the in-progress club, but I chose that date to encompass McDavid who probably has a wing spot somewhere)

 

[Despote]

Also, imagine not finding room for Red Kelly. Or Glenn Hall. Or Stan Mikita or Steve Yzerman or Joe Sakic.

McDavid is the more glaring omission, and should definitely be on that team.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Also weird to think about how Orr and Gretzky are only born 13 years apart. I know intuitively when each played and how Orr's career was short due to injury. However, since they never overlapped as NHL players, it feels like they came from more further apart times. They're the same amount apart as Chris Pronger and Sidney Crosby. It would be interesting to have seen an Older Orr vs. Young Gretzky.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Canada is disproportionately strong on centre and always has centres playing wing in international tournaments.

Hull - Gretzky - Howe
Lemieux - Crosby - Richard
McDavid - Beliveau - Lafleur
Messier - Nighbor - Morenz

Harvey - Orr
Kelly - Bourque
Potvin - Shore

Roy
Plante

A first line combining Canada's best shot with Canada's best pass. And Canada's best corner man.
A second line of offensive wizardry. Crosby's puck battles compliments Richard and Lemieux well.
A hyper-speed third line with insane offensive ability and puck possession.
Canada's best defensive centre needs to be here, paired with the speedy Morenz and brutal Messier.

Canada's best offensive defensemen paired with it's best defensive defensemen.
A solid two-way pairing that bringing elite, but responsible, offense
Violence on the third pairing that can break open a game

 

[MadLuke]

Intel team tend to have a bit more roster spot than the nhl, if we go with modern Olympics rules, you have 20 skater in a game.

You can bring a faceoff specialist, a pk or pp one, even if for these guys playing 15 minutes game is "easy" and maybe you do not want a out of pace player getting action.

Regardless a backup D is always fun to have.

Coffey on international ice is tempting, he played well in those tourneys.

 

[Crosby2010]

My only complaint here is that the generational distribution "feels" off to me.

Ten players born 1951-1965
Two players born 1966-1997 (a backup goaltender and a 4th line center, you can compress the end date here for the in-progress club, but I chose that date to encompass McDavid who probably has a wing spot somewhere)

Take Esposito off and put McDavid in there. He has to be on that team somewhere for sure.

 

[Professor What]

So, going with international rules, having 20 skaters and a third goalie that doesn't dress, I made an attempt at a Russian team, since others have tried Team Canada.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Sergei Makarov
Valeri Kharlomov - Sergei Fedorov - Boris Mikhailov
Anatoli Firsov - Alexander Maltsev - Pavel Bure
Alexander Yakushev - Pavel Datsyuk - Vladimir Krutov

Slava Fetisov - Valeri Vasiliev
Sergei Gonchar - Alexei Kasatonov
Nikolai Sologubov - Sergei Zubov
Alexander Ragluin - Vladimir Lutchenko

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilivski
Sergei Bobrovsky

What did I get wrong, and how would this team fare?

 

[WarriorofTime]

So, going with international rules, having 20 skaters and a third goalie that doesn't dress, I made an attempt at a Russian team, since others have tried Team Canada.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Sergei Makarov
Valeri Kharlomov - Sergei Fedorov - Boris Mikhailov
Anatoli Firsov - Alexander Maltsev - Pavel Bure
Alexander Yakushev - Pavel Datsyuk - Vladimir Krutov

Slava Fetisov - Valeri Vasiliev
Sergei Gonchar - Alexei Kasatonov
Nikolai Sologubov - Sergei Zubov
Alexander Ragluin - Vladimir Lutchenko

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilivski
Sergei Bobrovsky

What did I get wrong, and how would this team fare?

Kucherov

 

[Professor What]

Kucherov

Duh. Major oversight on my part. He probably slots in second line, I'd say?

 

[MadLuke]

Bobrov made the IIHF all time team, Kovalchuck did score some big goals, soem value of knowing Mogilny-Fedorov-Bure work ?

 

[Namba 17]

So, going with international rules, having 20 skaters and a third goalie that doesn't dress, I made an attempt at a Russian team, since others have tried Team Canada.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Sergei Makarov
Valeri Kharlomov - Sergei Fedorov - Boris Mikhailov
Anatoli Firsov - Alexander Maltsev - Pavel Bure
Alexander Yakushev - Pavel Datsyuk - Vladimir Krutov

Slava Fetisov - Valeri Vasiliev
Sergei Gonchar - Alexei Kasatonov
Nikolai Sologubov - Sergei Zubov
Alexander Ragluin - Vladimir Lutchenko

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilivski
Sergei Bobrovsky

What did I get wrong, and how would this team fare?

I don't like it.
Too many players on wrong sides for no reason.
Ovi Malkin combo was very bad in real life.
No best Soviet C

 

[Professor What]

I don't like it.
Too many players on wrong sides for no reason.
Ovi Malkin combo was very bad in real life.
No best Soviet C

Who's playing on the wrong side? I was under the impression that Krutov could play both sides, which is why I slotted him in on the right, but it doesn't matter once it was pointed out that I left out Kucherov. Krutov would be out of the lineup at that point. Maybe I messed up some of the defensemen? I did the sides off the top of my head there.

I have no issue moving things around to get chemistry, but who would you move off of the top line to break up Ovi and Geno?

No best Soviet C? I'm guessing you mean Petrov or Larionov, but I see them as being behind the other guys. I'd be interested in hearing the case for otherwise though.

 

[MadLuke]

Not knowing much about anything, I would play it safe.

Makarov-Larionov-Krutov
Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikailov
Mogilny-Fedorov-Bure
Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Kucherov
Malkin

Would be my first reflex, maybe a specialist but they often played strong all around hockey and you have Fedorov-Datsyuk.

Maybe it make no sense (does in that world they played with each other.....), but short tourney some value in being certain that it can work.

A bit like I would be tempted with Lemieux-Gretzky, Crosby-Bergeron, Espo-Orr, etc....

One other aspect that would temp me, is to go Lindros all over the competition, is there a mix of Howe-Lindros-Messier-Beliveau-Lemieux-Mahovlich-Esposito-Pronger-Robinson-Neely-Iginla-Nash, that just too much speed-size to handle for the other team, you still put Gretzky-Orr in there obviously with them

 

[WarriorofTime]

Forward (x13)
Brett Hull
Patrick Kane
Pat LaFontaine
John LeClair
Auston Matthews
Joe Mullen
Mike Modano
Zach Parise
Joe Pavelski
Jeremy Roenick
Keith Tkachuk
Matthew Tkachuk
Blake Wheeler

Defense (x7)
Chris Chelios
Adam Fox
Mark Howe
Quinn Hughes
Rod Langway
Brian Leetch
Ryan Suter

Goaltender (x3)
Frank Brimsek
Connor Hellebuyck
Tim Thomas

 

[Namba 17]

Who's playing on the wrong side? I was under the impression that Krutov could play both sides, which is why I slotted him in on the right, but it doesn't matter once it was pointed out that I left out Kucherov. Krutov would be out of the lineup at that point. Maybe I messed up some of the defensemen? I did the sides off the top of my head there.

Krutov was LW strictly.
Gonchar, Sologubov were RD, Ragulin was RD mostly, Lutchenko was LD mostly.

No best Soviet C? I'm guessing you mean Petrov or Larionov, but I see them as being behind the other guys. I'd be interested in hearing the case for otherwise though.

Petrov. I realize that his MVP record is second biggest mystery in Soviet hockey history, but you cant deny stats and the fact that he was CSKA/Soviet international #1 C during Soviet best years.

 

[Namba 17]

I'd have Soviet smth like

Ovechkin - Petrov - Mikhailov
Krutov - Datsyuk - Makarov
Firsov - Fedorov - Balderis
Kharlamov - Starshinov - Kucherov
Malkin, Maltsev

Fetisov - Vasiliev
Pervoukhin - Kasatonov
Lutchenko - Sologubov
Ragulin

Tretiak
Vasilevsky

 

[Albatros]

Šatan - Šťastný - Hossa
Tatar - Demitra - Bondra
Zedník - Stümpel - Pálffy
Slafkovský - Handzuš - Gáborík

Chára - Višňovský
Sekera - Svehla
Fehérváry - Černák

Halák
Budaj

Also plenty of excellent Slovak players that never got to play for an independent Slovak team, Vladimír Dzurilla in goal, skaters like Stan Mikita, Jozef Golonka, or Anton and Marián Šťastný.

 

[Namba 17]

CSSR

Elias - Peter Stasny - Jagr
Jiri Holik - Novy - Martinec
Liba - Nedomansky - Hossa
Anton Stasny - Hlinka - Lala
Golonka, Palffy

Chara - Suchy
Pospisil - Mahac
Svoboda - Bubla
Gut

Hasek
Holecek

 

[bobholly39]

So, going with international rules, having 20 skaters and a third goalie that doesn't dress, I made an attempt at a Russian team, since others have tried Team Canada.

Alex Ovechkin - Evgeni Malkin - Sergei Makarov
Valeri Kharlomov - Sergei Fedorov - Boris Mikhailov
Anatoli Firsov - Alexander Maltsev - Pavel Bure
Alexander Yakushev - Pavel Datsyuk - Vladimir Krutov

Slava Fetisov - Valeri Vasiliev
Sergei Gonchar - Alexei Kasatonov
Nikolai Sologubov - Sergei Zubov
Alexander Ragluin - Vladimir Lutchenko

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilivski
Sergei Bobrovsky

What did I get wrong, and how would this team fare?

In hockey - underdogs can always win a single game - and this is a great team so could definitely win. But if this was a best of 7 or so? I'd say less than 0.01% chance they'd win. Canada is just way too good.

1. Their goalies won't cut it. Great goalies - but you'd need a Hasek having the games of his live to contain team Canada over 7 games. As great as Tretiak is - it won't work.

2. Their defense isn't that good. That's always been a problem for Russia. That defense isn't going to contain Team Canada.

3. As great as their forwards are - none of their 4 lines would displace a single line of team canada. You can probably find room for a few players, but barely.

I think Russia would have a chance to beat Team Canada if we were looking at a 5 man team (obviously can't play 60 minutes with 5 players, but ignoring that...). Give the Russians impeccable chemistry and a great system to outdo Canada, even vs the likes of Lemieux/Gretzky/Orr etc - small chance it could work. But over a full team, and over 60 minutes - let alone best of 7, there's no way Canada doesn't win.

 

[WarriorofTime]

In hockey - underdogs can always win a single game - and this is a great team so could definitely win. But if this was a best of 7 or so? I'd say less than 0.01% chance they'd win. Canada is just way too good.

Less than 0.01 would mean it's impossible. Not so sure. If 2nd best team is Soviets/Russians, then they have maybe a 5-10 % chance just because a lot of randomness goes into it and the players are of a high caliber enough.

1. Their goalies won't cut it. Great goalies - but you'd need a Hasek having the games of his live to contain team Canada over 7 games. As great as Tretiak is - it won't work.

Any Hall of Fame goaltender riding good variance has at least a "puncher's chance". The longer you kick out the sample of games, the more difficult catching the positive variance becomes but first to 4 wins is still pretty small.

2. Their defense isn't that good. That's always been a problem for Russia. That defense isn't going to contain Team Canada.

Depends which year you are talking...

3. As great as their forwards are - none of their 4 lines would displace a single line of team canada. You can probably find room for a few players, but barely.

Yes the top whatever list is Canadian dominated so mixed teams would see the Canadians by and large picked first. Relevant question is more so can they get lucky on a short sample, which more so requires players that can at least "hang in there" enough to catch a break. Especially if they are trapping appropriately.

I think Russia would have a chance to beat Team Canada if we were looking at a 5 man team (obviously can't play 60 minutes with 5 players, but ignoring that...). Give the Russians impeccable chemistry and a great system to outdo Canada, even vs the likes of Lemieux/Gretzky/Orr etc - small chance it could work. But over a full team, and over 60 minutes - let alone best of 7, there's no way Canada doesn't win.

Funny enough, I think a "turn fatigue off and play 60 minutes with the same 1-man unit" might make Canada even tougher as their top 3 forwards and top defenseman are all way better than anybody else, including the "Canada 2nd unit" and you're creating more variance the more into depth you go even as Canada retains a mega-advantage at every layer.

 

[MadLuke]

Funny enough, I think a "turn fatigue off and play 60 minutes with the same 1-man unit" might make Canada even tougher as their top 3 forwards and top defenseman are all way better than anybody else, including the "Canada 2nd unit" and you're creating more variance the more into depth you go even as Canada retains a mega-advantage at every layer.

Maybe because Gretzky-Orr are so special, but it is tempting to go the other way around, Canada third best teams against other country third-best team seem a safer bet for Canada than playing against Fetisov, Jagr, Hasek, etc...

But more you think about it, dealing with Lemieux-Gretzky-Orr for 60 minutes..

Canada lost a game to the Swiss in the Olympics, Soviet to the US college player, even in a 4 of 7 hockey does not feel safe like Soccer, Football or Basketball, there a bit of Baseball like quality to it if the gap is not extreme and you face 1994 Fedorov-Bure, peak Tretiak/Vasilivski