What was the deal with Irving Grundman?

[checkerdome]

What qualified him to succeed Sam Pollock as Habs GM in 1978?

Wasn't he in the bowling alley business at the time?

Surely there were better candidates out there.

The major trade prior to the 1982-83 season that sent Doug Jarvis along with Rod Langway, Craig Laughlin and Brian Engblom to the Washington Capitals for Ryan Walter and Rick Green was a pivotal trade for the franchise.

It's arguable whether the trade was a help or a hindrance to the Canadiens.

Was it a quasi-political appointment?

thanks

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[Canadiens1958]

What qualified him to succeed Sam Pollock as Habs GM in 1978?

Wasn't he in the bowling alley business at the time?

Surely there were better candidates out there.

The major trade prior to the 1982-83 season that sent Doug Jarvis along with Rod Langway, Craig Laughlin and Brian Engblom to the Washington Capitals for Ryan Walter and Rick Green was a pivotal trade for the franchise.

It's arguable whether the trade was a help or a hindrance to the Canadiens.

Was it a quasi-political appointment?

thanks

Irving Grundman was involved in the business end of the Canadiens/Forum at the time. Sam Pollock felt he was the best choice as the next GM because of his ability to handle financial matters. Also there was a concern that Scotty Bowman might trade assets at the first sign of a dip in team performance. Scotty Bowman stayed on for one more season then left for Buffalo where he never did much as coach or GM.

The major trade prior to the 1982-83 season that sent Doug Jarvis along with Rod Langway, Craig Laughlin and Brian Engblom to the Washington Capitals for Ryan Walter and Rick Green was a pivotal trade for the franchise.

Not sure why you characterize it as such. Langway wanted out of Montreal for tax and salary purposes.Getting the best return became paramount. Jarvis was a very valuable defensive center but with an emerging Guy Carbonneau - younger and better offensively he was expendable. Laughlin was seen as a third liner and Engblom had not progressed as hoped. Ryan Walter gave the Canadiens size up front and Rick Green was a steady defenseman who brought some size. Both players contributed alot to the 1986 Stanley Cup and to the 1989 near cup.

 

[GNick42]

It was a good trade for both teams. Washington got a franchise player in Langway and Montreal got two good building blocks who them to a cup. Also big part of Montreal team who never lost in opening round of playoffs in late '80s

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Grundman's two biggest errors were:

1) Not adequately replacing Ken Dryden, a true #1 goalie. Should have gone after Glenn Resch in the summer of 1980. The Habs didn't have a true go to guy until Roy emerged, other than Penney's 15 minutes of fame.

2) Drafting Doug Wickenheiser #1 overall

 

[MXD]

At the start of '80, they should indeed have gone after a goalie.

Richard Brodeur was available for DARN, DARN cheap.

(the trade was Brodeur, NYI 5th for VAN 5th).

BTW, how did Brodeur play only TWO games in 79-80?

 

[Lard_Lad]

BTW, how did Brodeur play only TWO games in 79-80?

He was in the CHL for most of the season.

 

[MXD]

He was in the CHL for most of the season.

Thanks. A bit hard to believe a goalie as good as he was (not an all-time great, but certainly not CHL material) spent so much time in the lower leagues at this stage of his career -- he was 27 and won the Avco Cup in 1977.

 

[sister sherri*]

Irving Grundman was involved in the business end of the Canadiens/Forum at the time. Sam Pollock felt he was the best choice as the next GM because of his ability to handle financial matters. Also there was a concern that Scotty Bowman might trade assets at the first sign of a dip in team performance. Scotty Bowman stayed on for one more season then left for Buffalo where he never did much as coach or GM.

The major trade prior to the 1982-83 season that sent Doug Jarvis along with Rod Langway, Craig Laughlin and Brian Engblom to the Washington Capitals for Ryan Walter and Rick Green was a pivotal trade for the franchise.

Not sure why you characterize it as such. Langway wanted out of Montreal for tax and salary purposes.Getting the best return became paramount. Jarvis was a very valuable defensive center but with an emerging Guy Carbonneau - younger and better offensively he was expendable. Laughlin was seen as a third liner and Engblom had not progressed as hoped. Ryan Walter gave the Canadiens size up front and Rick Green was a steady defenseman who brought some size. Both players contributed alot to the 1986 Stanley Cup and to the 1989 near cup.

Okay, this explanation for why Grundman was hired as GM makes sense. Bowman certainly wasn't the answer, but Grundman quickly proved not to be Pollock. I've often wondered if better options weren't available at the time. It's quite extraordinary to look back and see the precise moment when a great organization ceased to be great.

 

[Big Phil]

Okay, this explanation for why Grundman was hired as GM makes sense. Bowman certainly wasn't the answer, but Grundman quickly proved not to be Pollock. I've often wondered if better options weren't available at the time. It's quite extraordinary to look back and see the precise moment when a great organization ceased to be great.

It was at this moment when they lost that title of Cup favourites. I don't know if there was more than two seasons in a row that passed over the last 40 years prior to this where the Habs weren't considered a Cup favourite. Grundman didn't really win that Cup in 1979, his name is on the Cup but Pollock's fingerprints are all over it. Post 1979 is when Montreal lost its title as the best hockey team in the world, which is something they have never gotten back, not once. Yes, they won in 1986 and 1993 but in both years there were monumental upsets and they were not on the radar to win the Cup.

What officially killed the status of the Habs as that franchise that had that aura that they could seemingly never do anything wrong - and this is from a Leafs fan saying this - was the Roy trade. Prior to that you never thought of the Habs as mediocre if only because of Roy. It has only been since Price's emergence in the last few years that they have gotten that aura back - sort of.

But if you ask me, Bowman deserved the GM's chair. It would have kept him on as coach and since they lost some pieces after 1979 such as Dryden, Lemaire and Cournoyer, you never know they could have at least hung onto Lemaire and still had the best coach in the NHL. That alone improves their chances in 1980 and onwards. The name Irving Grundman stings Habs fans the way John Ferguson Jr. riles up Leaf fans.

 

[FerrisRox]

The name Irving Grundman stings Habs fans the way John Ferguson Jr. riles up Leaf fans.

I think you would be very hard-pressed to find Canadiens fans that would back this up.

He didn't make any disastrous trades that in any way hurt the franchises, he won a Cup, and under his watch the team drafted stars like Guy Carbonneau who went on to captain the Canadiens to a Stanley Cup, Mats Naslund, who was integral to the '86 title and Hall of Famer Chris Chelios.

The only real blunder on his watch was the Wickenheiser over Savard draft pick, though I suspect that is on the scouting department, not Grundman.

It's silly to compare him to a total dud like JFJ.

Now Rejean Houle, there's a GM that riles up fans and has a laundry list of errors to his name.

 

[reckoning]

There's no reason to believe Bowman would've been a huge success as Montreal GM. The issues he had in Buffalo likely still would've played out in Montreal. He didn't want to coach anymore, but wouldn't let a new coach do their job if they did anything differently than he would.

The bottom line is that when he was fired, the Sabres were dead last in the NHL. That where they stood after 7 years of Bowman as GM. And it wasn't a case of a team rebuilding with youth. His big move for the 86-87 season was to bring in Clark Gillies and Wilf Paiement, both of whom were at the end of their careers.

Bowman was a great coach. That doesn't make someone a great GM.

 

[The Panther]

The "Bowman as Montreal GM" scenario is interesting to contemplate. On the one hand, he went to Buffalo and immediately the team had three 93+ point seasons in a row. A dip in 1982-83 and then one more great season (Barrasso in '83-'84). On the other hand, this period of competitiveness (which wasn't actually any better than they'd been for five or six years prior) was followed by three or four years of sharp decline, concluding with Bowman's ouster and the team at the bottom of the NHL.

If Bowman had been in Montreal, he'd likely have hired another coach -- a defense-first coach that suited him -- and he'd have had a more 'Bowman-style' team to work with. The Canadiens continued playing a defense-first style pretty much through the 1980s and well into the 1990s, so pieces were in place with or without Bowman. I think he'd have had more success as a GM in Montreal than he actually had in Buffalo.

Basically, Bowman and "the 80s" were not a good mix, much like ex-1960s' hippies in the 80s.

 

[double5son10]

At the start of '80, they should indeed have gone after a goalie.

Richard Brodeur was available for DARN, DARN cheap.

(the trade was Brodeur, NYI 5th for VAN 5th).

BTW, how did Brodeur play only TWO games in 79-80?

Hindsight is 20/20. At the start of the 1980 season I don't think the Habs brass would've seen the need. They had just traded for Denis Herron the previous. Herron had had a superb season the previous year, marred by his game 7 gaffe. Richard Sevigny was being groomed in the minors. People forget Sevigny was pretty well regarded coming out of juniors. He'd played on Canada's squad in the World Juniors as an 18 yr. old and had won a Presidents Trophy with the Sherbrooke Castors the following year. There was also Mark Holden, an All-American in '79-80 from Brown in the mix and they had just drafted Rick Wamsley in the 3rd rd. of the '79 draft. Plus Larocque was still in the fold. Unfortunately for the Canadiens none of these goalies proved to be of championship mettle come the playoffs.
One also has to ask if the Islanders would've been willing to trade an asset like Brodeur to the Habs. Yes, the Canucks got him for cheep, but I doubt Bill Torrey was looking to make the Canadiens get better in the fall of '80.

I think you would be very hard-pressed to find Canadiens fans that would back this up.

He didn't make any disastrous trades that in any way hurt the franchises, he won a Cup, and under his watch the team drafted stars like Guy Carbonneau who went on to captain the Canadiens to a Stanley Cup, Mats Naslund, who was integral to the '86 title and Hall of Famer Chris Chelios.

The only real blunder on his watch was the Wickenheiser over Savard draft pick, though I suspect that is on the scouting department, not Grundman.

It's silly to compare him to a total dud like JFJ.

Now Rejean Houle, there's a GM that riles up fans and has a laundry list of errors to his name.

Ron Caron made that call, the same man who convinced Pollock to pass on Bossy. Because of Caron the Habs passed on the two best Montreal players available during that time.
I think your assessment of Grundman is more or less correct, to a point. His low-balling of Lemaire in contract talks led to the Habs losing their #1 center. Otherwise I would say Grundman's greatest failings were internal management issues that affected the play on the ice. He dithered over a replacement for Bowman, not deciding on Bernie Geoffrion, a man who had already walked away from two previous coaching gigs because of ulcers, until Labour Day weekend, just weeks before the season was to begin. There would be issues also around Bernie's son Danny's attitude and playing time that affected the locker room.
The decision to draft Wickenheiser over Savard caused a rift between Caron and coach Claude Ruel, who had desperately wanted Savard. Ruel effectively benched Wickenheiser throughout his rookie year out of spite.
Grundman wasn't awful, but he just wasn't a strong leader either.
Agree wholeheartedly with Panther and Ferris about Bowman. He was a disaster in Buffalo and I don't think he would've been any better in Montreal. And people fail to understand that the Habs offered Bowman a chance to be GM, it just wasn't on the total control terms that he wanted and got in Buffalo.

 

[ForsbergForever]

Not sure why you characterize it as such. Langway wanted out of Montreal for tax and salary purposes.Getting the best return became paramount. Jarvis was a very valuable defensive center but with an emerging Guy Carbonneau - younger and better offensively he was expendable. Laughlin was seen as a third liner and Engblom had not progressed as hoped. Ryan Walter gave the Canadiens size up front and Rick Green was a steady defenseman who brought some size. Both players contributed alot to the 1986 Stanley Cup and to the 1989 near cup.

Engblom had 33 points and was a team-leading +78 in his last season with the Habs, I'm pretty sure he was considered a cornerstone defenseman at the time, along with Langway.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not Quite

Engblom had 33 points and was a team-leading +78 in his last season with the Habs, I'm pretty sure he was considered a cornerstone defenseman at the time, along with Langway.

Played sheltered minutes behind Langway, Robinson and Lapointe in 1981-82, throw in Savard in 1980-81.

Fact remains after leaving Montreal, Engblom bounced around the NHL, collective -39 over five seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/engblbr01.html