What to Make of John Tavares' Career?

[The Panther]

Sundin was obviously way better than Tavares! I mean, really, people...

Tavares, top 150?? I don't really see it.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Sundin was obviously way better than Tavares! I mean, really, people...

Tavares, top 150?? I don't really see it.

Maybe slightly better at best. Sundin never finished 2nd in scoring. Sundin also aged very well, Tavares has had a long productive career but if this season is any indication he won't have Sundins longevity. Anything else is pure emotional language without any root to reality beyond 'Sundin was my favorite leaf ever'.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sundin is another one where I wonder what could have happened if he was surrounded by competence...probably my #1 all time example of "he looks way different in person than on TV" player. He really jumps off the page in person.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Sundin is another one where I wonder what could have happened if he was surrounded by competence...probably my #1 all time example of "he looks way different in person than on TV" player. He really jumps off the page in person.

It's worth saying Tavares on the isles had a much worse supporting cast then Sundin did with the leafs. Okposo(who is a 30 point player without him), Matt Moulson, Pa Parenteau? No offense to these guys but it wasn't exactly a stellar supporting cast.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I actually introduced that very concept with those very names earlier in the thread...

 

[Hobnobs]

It's worth saying Tavares on the isles had a much worse supporting cast then Sundin did with the leafs. Okposo(who is a 30 point player without him), Matt Moulson, Pa Parenteau? No offense to these guys but it wasn't exactly a stellar supporting cast.

The problem with Mats wasn't that he never had a good supporting cast. It's that when he entered his prime he didn't. Give me those isles guys over whatever was left when Gilmour and Murphy (the last good players) was traded away. Berezin, Grandpa Clark, pre-breakout Modin, Warriner, Matt Martin, Derek King, Mike Johnson, McCauley, Korolev, Bohonos, Hendrickson.. It was like a whos who of hockey garbage.

Those were the support cast he had between 97-00. After that up until the lockout it got a little better where the best players he played with was Jonas Höglund, Steve Thomas and a couple of seasons later Mikael "My body barely works anymore" Renberg, Gary Roberts and I think it was 03 they got Mogilny to complement him and Tucker.

Such wastefulness with a players career. His support cast was atrocious.

 

[Hasbro]

Stylistically, very poor man's Crosby seems fair.

The destitute man's Crosby?

 

[Gorskyontario]

The problem with Mats wasn't that he never had a good supporting cast. It's that when he entered his prime he didn't. Give me those isles guys over whatever was left when Gilmour and Murphy (the last good players) was traded away. Berezin, Grandpa Clark, pre-breakout Modin, Warriner, Matt Martin, Derek King, Mike Johnson, McCauley, Korolev, Bohonos, Hendrickson.. It was like a whos who of hockey garbage.

Those were the support cast he had between 97-00. After that up until the lockout it got a little better where the best players he played with was Jonas Höglund, Steve Thomas and a couple of seasons later Mikael "My body barely works anymore" Renberg, Gary Roberts and I think it was 03 they got Mogilny to complement him and Tucker.

Such wastefulness with a players career. His support cast was atrocious.

Most of this is complete fiction. Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, Alex Mogilny were better then anything Tavares had with the isles. He was also on offensively talented teams in Quebec prior to going to the leafs.

 

[MadLuke]

Most of this is complete fiction. Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, Alex Mogilny

Roberts was post 2000, Sundin was around Tavares second Leaf season old by then.

That was 97-00 Sundin support:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

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That only 4 years of his career too, not sure why we would not consider 1993 Sundin and up to be prime Sundin.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Roberts was post 2000, Sundin was around Tavares second Leaf season old by then.

That was 97-00 Sundin support:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That only 4 years of his career too, not sure why we would not consider 1993 Sundin and up to be prime Sundin.

So 2-3 seasons of sub par teammates is equivalent to Tavares carrying the corpse of a franchise for a decade? What you posted makes practically zero sense.

Toronto Maple Leafs 1996-97 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1996-97 Toronto Maple Leafs playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

Obviously the leafs unloaded at the deadline, but you could do a lot worse then playing with Doug Gilmour for 61 games. Or old Wendel Clark. Or 69 games of Larry Murphy. Bad depth on the team obviously.

Toronto Maple Leafs 1998-99 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1998-99 Toronto Maple Leafs playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

What exactly is wrong with that roster? Berezin and Thomas are fine linemates. Derek King was a decent player. The team reached the conference finals. What exactly is the problem? Please let me know. Young Steve Sullivan is another decent player.

Toronto Maple Leafs 1997-98 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1997-98 Toronto Maple Leafs playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

This is by far Sundin's worst roster, and credit to him for leading the leafs by nearly 30 points.

New York Islanders 2014-15 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2014-15 New York Islanders playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

Tavares has a similar year, leading the islanders by 35 points, finishing 2nd in scoring in the NHL.

 

[MadLuke]

So 2-3 seasons of sub par teammates is equivalent to Tavares carrying the corpse of a franchise for a decade? What you posted makes practically zero sense.

97-98-99-00 would be 4 seasons. What do you mean by what I posted ? It is not me that said anything about the value of the Leaf of the era, just pointed out that a named player was outside the range of the poster and gave a link to Sundin support of the talked about era.

 

[Hobnobs]

So 2-3 seasons of sub par teammates is equivalent to Tavares carrying the corpse of a franchise for a decade? What you posted makes practically zero sense.

Maybe actually read the post before going into full defensive mode. Where did I state anything like this? Just brought up that Sundin carried lesser teammates in the middle of his prime. Not that he had it worse, equal or better than Tavares overall. Talk about complete fiction.

And as MadLuke already pointed out. It was four seasons.

Most of this is complete fiction. Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, Alex Mogilny were better then anything Tavares had with the isles. He was also on offensively talented teams in Quebec prior to going to the leafs.

They are mentioned and Thomas being better is definitely arguable. But good cherry picking.

What does Quebec have to do with his prime? We can go into the Leafs corpse post lockout as well if you want?

 

[FerrisRox]

What about Dale Hawerchuk as a comp for Tavares?

I think Dale Hawerchuk was much more skilled than John Tavares and I think you are selling Ducky's defensive prowess way short by pretending he is similar to Tavares without the puck.

There's no question to me that Hawerchuk was a much better player.

What? Andreychuk was far more effective in Tampa in the twilight of his career then Turgeon. Turgeon was absolutely terrible in Dallas and Colorado.

Turgeon was not "absolutely terrible" in Dallas.

HIs numbers dipped, for sure, but he went from the 1st line to third line in Dallas, behind Mike Modano and Joe Nieuwendyk.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The heroism of Tavares carrying the Isles is extremely exaggerated. Look at his point margin leads compared to some players today on more competitive teams.

 

[Gorskyontario]

HIs numbers dipped, for sure, but he went from the 1st line to third line in Dallas, behind Mike Modano and Joe Nieuwendyk.

This is pure fiction, and I almost can't believe what I am reading. Joe Nieuwendyk was traded during Turgeon's first of 3 seasons in Dallas.

Your post makes less then zero sense.

The heroism of Tavares carrying the Isles is extremely exaggerated. Look at his point margin leads compared to some players today on more competitive teams.

Well it's not as if they were successful with him there. However his teammates, such as Okposo, Moulson, Pa Parenteau all proved to be fringe NHL players at best without Tavares.

 

[MadLuke]

Was Arnott instead of Nieuwendyk that different to the point made ?

 

[Gorskyontario]

They are mentioned and Thomas being better is definitely arguable. But good cherry picking.

What does Quebec have to do with his prime? We can go into the Leafs corpse post lockout as well if you want?

Post lockout leafs are a much better example of Sundin carrying sub par linemates to good point totals. His scoring after his rookie year in Quebec is consistent with his time in Toronto, I would say that's a credit for Sundin having a ridiculously long prime. Steve Thomas was not an offensive dynamo but he was a very good dependable winger any center would have been happy to have. With his consistent grit and well above average scoring and playmaking.

Was Arnott instead of Nieuwendyk that different to the point made ?

Considering it wasn't uncommon for Turgeon being deployed above Arnott at times in Dallas, Yes.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is pure fiction, and I almost can't believe what I am reading. Joe Nieuwendyk was traded during Turgeon's first of 3 seasons in Dallas.

Your post makes less then zero sense.



Well it's not as if they were successful with him there. However his teammates, such as Okposo, Moulson, Pa Parenteau all proved to be fringe NHL players at best without Tavares.

1047 and 650 career games are not “fringe nhl players at best”. Parenteau is the exact sort of fringe player that can produce a bit when put in the perfect situation whether Tavares is the first line center or it’s someone else.

 

[MadLuke]

Considering it wasn't uncommon for Turgeon being deployed above Arnott at times in Dallas, Yes.

So If he was still number 3 with the younger Arnott coming here, the point of the Turgeon dip because he was turned into the third center option seem to make sense ?

Maybe I did not follow the original point or your answer to it.

 

[Gorskyontario]

1047 and 650 career games are not “fringe nhl players at best”. Parenteau is the exact sort of fringe player that can produce a bit when put in the perfect situation whether Tavares is the first line center or it’s someone else.

Okposo is only still in the league because he plays for the worst NHL franchise of all time. Who gave him a paycheck specifically because Tavares made him look good.
I literally don't understand your post.

 

[Gorskyontario]

So If he was still number 3 with the younger Arnott coming here, the point of the Turgeon dip because he was turned into the third center option seem to make sense ?

Maybe I did not follow the original point or your answer to it.

I can barely remember the original point I made, since it was weeks ago. Reading back on the thread, I was defending Andreychuks late career disrespect as a 'compiler' since he was still clearly able to contribute. Someone made the point Turgeon wasn't a compiler, which I agree with. I made the point that Andreychuk was significantly more useful for Tampa, then Turgeon was for Dallas or the avs. A point I stand by.

This isn't necessarily to disrespect Turgeon, who I have no strong feelings for one way or the other. I do however believe he was cooked after leaving St Louis.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Okposo is only still in the league because he plays for the worst NHL franchise of all time. Who gave him a paycheck specifically because Tavares made him look good.
I literally don't understand your post.

What's not to understand? The post states that the heroism of the John Tavares Islanders era where he was singlehandedly saving the careers of AHL players and dragging the worst team in the NHL kicking and screaming into a couple of 1st round exits is massively exaggerated. I know it was a popular narrative then and appears to be now. But him going to the Leafs with a team that was poised to be on the rise and him becoming quickly more known for massing up the cap structure as opposed to elevating the team is one hundred percent proof of that.

 

[decma]

Considering it wasn't uncommon for Turgeon being deployed above Arnott at times in Dallas, Yes.

Yeah, Turgeon was sometimes delpoyed above Arnott, but Arnott had more ice time per game than Turgeon in both of their seasons together.

 

[Gorskyontario]

John Tavares Islanders era where he was singlehandedly saving the careers of AHL players and dragging the worst team in the NHL kicking and screaming into a couple of 1st round exits

That's essentially accurate.

Yeah, Turgeon was sometimes delpoyed above Arnott, but Arnott had more ice time per game than Turgeon in both of their seasons together.

This is true, Dallas was a mess in those years with little team chemistry. Modano also had the worst season of his career for the stars in 03/04.

 

[FerrisRox]

This is pure fiction, and I almost can't believe what I am reading. Joe Nieuwendyk was traded during Turgeon's first of 3 seasons in Dallas.

Your post makes less then zero sense.

He was traded for Jason Arnott, another centre.

You say it's "pure fiction" that Pierre Turgeon was the Stars third line centre? Which one of Mike Modano and Joe Nieuwendyk/Jason Arnott do you believe Pierre Turgeon was playing ahead of?

In '02-'03, Modano was averaging over 20 minutes a game. Arnott was averaging 16.2 minutes a game and Turgeon 14:38. Please explain how Turgeon was playing ahead of those two centres? You can almost not believe what you're reading here, so it should be easy to explain this.

The following year, Modano remained over 20 minutes and Arnott climbed up to 17:00 a game, while Turgeon dipped to 14:13. Was this year he wasn't a third line centre?

Considering it wasn't uncommon for Turgeon being deployed above Arnott at times in Dallas, Yes.

So it "wasn't uncommon" for Turgeon to be deployed above Jason Arnott, yet Arnott played three minutes more per game. Care to explain how that works?

Wouldn't it be easier to simply admit you're wrong than to keep spinning new, obviously checkable statements that are clearly false?