What Sid and Geno really need.....

deczola

Registered User
Jan 21, 2015
322
0
Philadelphia, PA
Hey guys and gals, this is my first ever post and I don't know if it's against the rules for someone new to start a new thread, but I thought I have a good topic.

From the second Crosby and Malkin have stepped onto the ice, they were as good as a pair to build around as there is in the NHL. Within a few years of them being here, the correct pieces were around them and we made 2 Cup finals and since then have wasted their talent year after year. With this duo, we should win multiple Cups and still be sitting at one is not the end of the world, but we had chances to win more.

Watching old games, the one thing that jumps out at me is that Crosby and Malkin have much less ice space. Crosby should be the only focal point of his line and ditto Geno. At our best on the Cup winning year we had: Kunitz/Crosby/Guerin and Feds/Malikn/Talbot. I keep reading about the front 6 and wingers and our bottom six blah blah blah. We won a Cup with players THAT FIT the concept of making Crosby and Malkin the players that drive the team.

I keep reading posts here about getting 50 goal wingers and huge upgrades at wing. We had an elite goal scorer in Neal on these lines and we were a worse team for it. We need wingers THAT CREATE SPACE for Crosby and Malkin. These wingers do not have to be All-Stars or even 30 goal scorers, they need to be wingers who understand their role, know when to drive to the net, know when to dig in a corner and to protect the puck with their body.

A classic example of this was Bill Guerin. No Guerin, No Cup. He was an elite player but on the downslide of his career when we got him but was a true professional. When he came to the Pens, he did what needed to be done to win. He gave Crosby acres of space a few times a game and with a talent like Sid, that makes him very dangerous. On simple outs from the D Zone, he would body protect the puck and chip it to Sid flying up the ice. At other times, Sid enter the zone, he would recognize where he needed space and either drive hard to net to create late or get down to goal line to cycle.

We need players that will give Sid and Geno room. We do not need All-World players to do so, the GM needs to identify players that fit that style. I know I'm in the minority here, but players like Perron is not the type of player needed to play on the top line. He's got good hands and can score and when we acquired him, I knew right away he will score with better players. It would be best to get a quality 3rd line going which we haven't had in years and having Perron on that type of line.

Kunitz does work well with Sid and gives him space. Kuntiz - Sid - someone else at RW is needed. Maybe Hornquist can be that player, he seems to have an intellect, but shoots to much taking away from Sid's chances. I think a player like a Drew Stafford would fit with Sid or Geno and we may need one more.

If I was GM I would try something like this:

Kunitz - Crosby - ??? (limited Cap Room)
"Stafford" - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Hornquist
Adams - Goc - Comeau

If I could not find a player that fit what the need, I would just go for Stafford and do this

Kunitz - Crosby - Hornquist
Stafford - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Comeau
Goc - Sill - Adams

thoughts
 

Tumty

Registered User
Aug 18, 2012
867
7
Finland
Hey guys and gals, this is my first ever post and I don't know if it's against the rules for someone new to start a new thread, but I thought I have a good topic.

From the second Crosby and Malkin have stepped onto the ice, they were as good as a pair to build around as there is in the NHL. Within a few years of them being here, the correct pieces were around them and we made 2 Cup finals and since then have wasted their talent year after year. With this duo, we should win multiple Cups and still be sitting at one is not the end of the world, but we had chances to win more.

Watching old games, the one thing that jumps out at me is that Crosby and Malkin have much less ice space. Crosby should be the only focal point of his line and ditto Geno. At our best on the Cup winning year we had: Kunitz/Crosby/Guerin and Feds/Malikn/Talbot. I keep reading about the front 6 and wingers and our bottom six blah blah blah. We won a Cup with players THAT FIT the concept of making Crosby and Malkin the players that drive the team.

I keep reading posts here about getting 50 goal wingers and huge upgrades at wing. We had an elite goal scorer in Neal on these lines and we were a worse team for it. We need wingers THAT CREATE SPACE for Crosby and Malkin. These wingers do not have to be All-Stars or even 30 goal scorers, they need to be wingers who understand their role, know when to drive to the net, know when to dig in a corner and to protect the puck with their body.

A classic example of this was Bill Guerin. No Guerin, No Cup. He was an elite player but on the downslide of his career when we got him but was a true professional. When he came to the Pens, he did what needed to be done to win. He gave Crosby acres of space a few times a game and with a talent like Sid, that makes him very dangerous. On simple outs from the D Zone, he would body protect the puck and chip it to Sid flying up the ice. At other times, Sid enter the zone, he would recognize where he needed space and either drive hard to net to create late or get down to goal line to cycle.

We need players that will give Sid and Geno room. We do not need All-World players to do so, the GM needs to identify players that fit that style. I know I'm in the minority here, but players like Perron is not the type of player needed to play on the top line. He's got good hands and can score and when we acquired him, I knew right away he will score with better players. It would be best to get a quality 3rd line going which we haven't had in years and having Perron on that type of line.

Kunitz does work well with Sid and gives him space. Kuntiz - Sid - someone else at RW is needed. Maybe Hornquist can be that player, he seems to have an intellect, but shoots to much taking away from Sid's chances. I think a player like a Drew Stafford would fit with Sid or Geno and we may need one more.

If I was GM I would try something like this:

Kunitz - Crosby - ??? (limited Cap Room)
"Stafford" - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Hornquist
Adams - Goc - Comeau

If I could not find a player that fit what the need, I would just go for Stafford and do this

Kunitz - Crosby - Hornquist
Stafford - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Comeau
Goc - Sill - Adams

thoughts

Yeah.. ummm lol. Two best wingers with ****tysutter? Fantastic. MJ is that you?
 

Kristopher Letang

RIP Nipsey
Mar 7, 2013
11,513
12,513
Montréal, QC
So you don't want top-6 wingers, you have Kunitz with Crosby, Perron-Horny with Sutter, Adams-Sill in the lineup, Goc at wing, no Downie. Tbh I don't know where to start... This is going to end so badly. I will leave this thread to KIRK. :facepalm:
 
Last edited:

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
13,058
1,692
Quarantine Zone 5
You just Iginla'd Perron and wasted a 1st round pick. He's Sid's perfect winger.

And if anything "Limited cap space winger" shouldn't ever be slotted into a scoring role when you have Perron, Hornqvist, and even Comeau. We've had too long where that was the norm. JR finally righted that wrong and you want to go right back to having Sid carry the whole load? Really?
 
Last edited:

ProgOg

Registered User
Aug 25, 2014
2,563
0
This hits all the buttons - trading Neal and a first for wingers for Sutter, Adams and Sill still in the lineup despite even more additions through trades, Goc at wing?, Kunitz still in the top 6.
 

SherogoesHAM

Registered User
Apr 6, 2012
859
311
You make a lot of good points and I agree with most of them but you are going to get instant shrapnel for putting perron and horn on the 3rd line. They should not be there.
 

DegenX

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Aug 14, 2011
14,622
5,683
OP has given Sutter two of our best wingers, praised Adams in what was meant to be a fun thread and claimed that losing Scuds would be nearly as bad as losing Letang in the PGT ...

Obvious Pens' shill is obvious.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
OP has given Sutter two of our best wingers, praised Adams in what was meant to be a fun thread and claimed that losing Scuds would be nearly as bad as losing Letang in the PGT ...

Obvious Pens' shill is obvious.

You make a lot of good points and I agree with most of them but you are going to get instant shrapnel for putting perron and horn on the 3rd line. They should not be there.

Yep. Takes all validity out of the post in general. Doesn't matter if the post had 10 good points to make... the glaring awfulness of that decision alone makes it worthless.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
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Jun 13, 2010
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You were doing ok until you suggested Perron-Sutter-Horny as the 3rd line while putting a ??? in the 1RW slot and Stafford as the 2LW.

If there was justice, Perron-Sid-Hornqvist would be the 1st line with us able to have effective wingers for Malkin still.

Then Goc-Sill-Adams...don't even know what this is...
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
The #1 issue of all issues - Trying to protect Sutter and not supplying Geno/Sid w/ the best talent is Dan Bylsma terrible. Sid/Geno make this team run. Perron actually made Sid's line look good last night by himself.

And Sutter sucks. He's average to decent and that's all he's ever going to be in the NHL. He's a 3rd or 4th line center. Any team wanting to use him as a #2 is going to be rebuilding.
 

penguins2946*

Guest
The #1 issue of all issues - Trying to protect Sutter and not supplying Geno/Sid w/ the best talent is Dan Bylsma terrible. Sid/Geno make this team run. Perron actually made Sid's line look good last night by himself.

And Sutter sucks. He's average to decent and that's all he's ever going to be in the NHL. He's a 3rd or 4th line center. Any team wanting to use him as a #2 is going to be rebuilding.

I wouldn't say he's a 4th line center, but you're otherwise spot on. Sutter is in a weird situation. He plays like a scoring top-6 center, but he's not nearly good enough to do that. His only offensive talent is a nice shot. He's a bad playmaker, doesn't have good hockey IQ, doesn't have good hands and can't possess the puck. He's not ideal for a 3C spot, because the 3rd line is your shutdown line most of the time, and Sutter is way too soft and small (he's 6'3" and one of the lightest players on our team) to be a shutdown center, along with not being good enough at faceoffs. I think Sutter is best off as a scoring winger with a playmaking center.

I actually don't think the Malkin-Sutter combo is a bad idea, but that would involve Sutter on the LW (probably LW) with Malkin at center, and we'd need a physical RW for that line.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
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The #1 issue of all issues - Trying to protect Sutter and not supplying Geno/Sid w/ the best talent is Dan Bylsma terrible. Sid/Geno make this team run. Perron actually made Sid's line look good last night by himself.

And Sutter sucks. He's average to decent and that's all he's ever going to be in the NHL. He's a 3rd or 4th line center. Any team wanting to use him as a #2 is going to be rebuilding.

Given the fact that JR wouldn't do Perron for Sutter because they value him more (and a lot of people agreed on that) I would love to see who Sutter could actually fetch. Fill the 3C gap in FA, with Sundqvist or even Goc. Either way, the upgrade at wing in the Top 6 would be more than worth it, especially if you can make the third line wingers Kunitz and Bennett.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
Perron and Hornqvist are both exactly what we need. Sadly, Kunitz' play dropped at the same time as they got here. Kunitz from two and three years ago across from Hornqvist would be both Sid and Geno's dream line.

2010Kunitz - Sid - Horny
Perron - Geno - Bennett

That's the best top 6 in the league. Sadly, Kunitz isn't that guy anymore. Man, I'd kill just to have 2012 Dupuis back and in that spot. Though I think Comeau can come back and be that guy. It doesn't let us be as balanced, but

Perron - Sid - Horny
Comeau - Geno - Bennett

is pretty solid.

OP, you're post is silly. The general idea of needing guys who play their role isn't wrong. But thinking Perron and Hornqvist aren't those guys is wrong.

We need Johnston to realize Sutter is a checking center. If he builds the team without worrying about a 3rd scoring line, then we will improve dramatically I think.
 

SEALBound

Fancy Gina Carano
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Jun 13, 2010
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Perron and Hornqvist are both exactly what we need. Sadly, Kunitz' play dropped at the same time as they got here. Kunitz from two and three years ago across from Hornqvist would be both Sid and Geno's dream line.

2010Kunitz - Sid - Horny
Perron - Geno - Bennett

That's the best top 6 in the league. Sadly, Kunitz isn't that guy anymore. Man, I'd kill just to have 2012 Dupuis back and in that spot. Though I think Comeau can come back and be that guy. It doesn't let us be as balanced, but

Perron - Sid - Horny
Comeau - Geno - Bennett

is pretty solid.

OP, you're post is silly. The general idea of needing guys who play their role isn't wrong. But thinking Perron and Hornqvist aren't those guys is wrong.

We need Johnston to realize Sutter is a checking center. If he builds the team without worrying about a 3rd scoring line, then we will improve dramatically I think.

Spot on. If we could get a player similar to what Kunitz was in 2009-2010, we'd be in good shape. Tlusty?

What made 08 and 09 so great was that we had two dedicated scoring lines...and a VERY trustworthy dedicated shutdown line. It was bonus if they chipped in...and they did.

That's what we are missing. Staal was the ideal 3C. Big, skilled, defensive oriented. Cooke and Kennedy were the ideal 3rd line wingers. Cooke could bust em up with the best of them, Kennedy added speed and skill. It was a great situation. To boot, you could trust them against any line any team had, including the Dats-Zet-Hossa line. We can't do that with Sutter or any combination of wingers currently.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
2
"Sid and Geno need wingers that create space"

*wants the two best wingers on the team on the third line, including the one who creates the most space*

I'm finding it hard to believe that OP's post is for real.

Ogre's post is spot on, though.
 

roquay

Registered User
Aug 9, 2012
2,196
0
Victoria
Perron-Malkin-Bennett would be awesome if we could get someone like E.Kane for Sid.

Not likely to happen though. If it's with what we have we go:

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
75,544
22,068
Pittsburgh
Perron-Malkin-Bennett would be awesome if we could get someone like E.Kane for Sid.

Not likely to happen though. If it's with what we have we go:

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett.

I think the idea of targeting someone like E.Kane went out the window when we added Perron. But damn would that be a sexy top 6 :laugh:
 

TheGoldenJet

Registered User
Apr 2, 2008
9,487
4,596
Coquitlam, BC
Hey guys and gals, this is my first ever post and I don't know if it's against the rules for someone new to start a new thread, but I thought I have a good topic.

From the second Crosby and Malkin have stepped onto the ice, they were as good as a pair to build around as there is in the NHL. Within a few years of them being here, the correct pieces were around them and we made 2 Cup finals and since then have wasted their talent year after year. With this duo, we should win multiple Cups and still be sitting at one is not the end of the world, but we had chances to win more.

Watching old games, the one thing that jumps out at me is that Crosby and Malkin have much less ice space. Crosby should be the only focal point of his line and ditto Geno. At our best on the Cup winning year we had: Kunitz/Crosby/Guerin and Feds/Malikn/Talbot. I keep reading about the front 6 and wingers and our bottom six blah blah blah. We won a Cup with players THAT FIT the concept of making Crosby and Malkin the players that drive the team.

I keep reading posts here about getting 50 goal wingers and huge upgrades at wing. We had an elite goal scorer in Neal on these lines and we were a worse team for it. We need wingers THAT CREATE SPACE for Crosby and Malkin. These wingers do not have to be All-Stars or even 30 goal scorers, they need to be wingers who understand their role, know when to drive to the net, know when to dig in a corner and to protect the puck with their body.

A classic example of this was Bill Guerin. No Guerin, No Cup. He was an elite player but on the downslide of his career when we got him but was a true professional. When he came to the Pens, he did what needed to be done to win. He gave Crosby acres of space a few times a game and with a talent like Sid, that makes him very dangerous. On simple outs from the D Zone, he would body protect the puck and chip it to Sid flying up the ice. At other times, Sid enter the zone, he would recognize where he needed space and either drive hard to net to create late or get down to goal line to cycle.

We need players that will give Sid and Geno room. We do not need All-World players to do so, the GM needs to identify players that fit that style. I know I'm in the minority here, but players like Perron is not the type of player needed to play on the top line. He's got good hands and can score and when we acquired him, I knew right away he will score with better players. It would be best to get a quality 3rd line going which we haven't had in years and having Perron on that type of line.

Kunitz does work well with Sid and gives him space. Kuntiz - Sid - someone else at RW is needed. Maybe Hornquist can be that player, he seems to have an intellect, but shoots to much taking away from Sid's chances. I think a player like a Drew Stafford would fit with Sid or Geno and we may need one more.

If I was GM I would try something like this:

Kunitz - Crosby - ??? (limited Cap Room)
"Stafford" - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Hornquist
Adams - Goc - Comeau

If I could not find a player that fit what the need, I would just go for Stafford and do this

Kunitz - Crosby - Hornquist
Stafford - Malkin - Bennett
Perron - Sutter - Comeau
Goc - Sill - Adams

thoughts

Terrible, just terrrrrrrrrrriiiibbbbllllleee. :shakehead
 

gopens66

Hop in the Cordoba, Baby, we're goin' bowlin!
May 25, 2006
3,464
395
Altoona,Pa
Hornqvist created more space for Crosby in less than a third of a season, than Crosby has seen his whole career. He's the very definition of every great aspect you attributed to Guerin. Hornqvist can dig in the corners, goes hard to the net like nobody in the league, and can finish plays.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
I'd also add that dropping Comeau down the lineup doesn't really make sense given the reasoning outlined in the OP.

One can argue putting him on the third line on the basis that he won't keep his earlier production up (especially coming off a broken wrist), but what one can't argue is that he doesn't play the sort of game that facilitates the style of hockey the TC is talking about.
 

PensBandwagonerNo272*

Forgot About Sid
Sep 10, 2012
12,530
9
Hornqvist created more space for Crosby in less than a third of a season, than Crosby has seen his whole career. He's the very definition of every great aspect you attributed to Guerin. Hornqvist can dig in the corners, goes hard to the net like nobody in the league, and can finish plays.

Indeed.

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist is the best first lane we've hard in the Crosby era IMO (on paper) and is built to perform in the playoffs.

**** makes me drool after years and years of waiting
 

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