What should happen to Civic Arena site?

[VirginiaBob]

Dude, IT'S BEEN 30 YEARS. Get over it. I'm sure 99.9% of the people who were affected by Mellon arena have forgiven and forgotten long ago.

You can play the race card all you want, but it's about crime and income-level, not race.

Exactly, we aren't talking about college educated Engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc moving in there. I can care less about race as well, it is all about social class. But this guy seems to boil it all down to the race card.

 

[Shady Machine]

First off... no homes, businesses or the like were ever there... or at least ones that functioned or that were kept well maintained within the last 15-20 years!!!!! ...but what the hell lets start a reservation land right in the middle of dauntaun Pittsburgh for these people... the victims of the heartless blood sucking Penguins organization.

Wow really? Obviously home or businesses weren't there in the last 20 years because there was a giant arena there. You just seem to want to complain for the sake of complaining.

 

[Fordy]

Exactly, we aren't talking about college educated Engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc moving in there. I can care less about race as well, it is all about social class. But this guy seems to boil it all down to the race card.

Are you implying race and income aren't related or that the area isn't mostly black? Is this a fantasy land?

 

[Shady Machine]

The Pens as part of the arena deal committed over $1 million to a grocery store, something that Hill leaders had wanted for years, in the Hill, some other projects, and set aside a percentage of all jobs for Hill district priority in hiring.

That was after the Hill primarily torpedoed the Pens getting the arena deal with the casino, and the Pens almost left.

The Pens have done their share, and continue to do their share. The Hill still has priority on a nice percentage of all hires.

At some point you have to draw the line.

I agree with that. I don't know where the line is since I'm not overly familiar with all the history.

 

[Ogrezilla]

More jobs for people in the Hill means less people in the Hill will be poor. That's good for the people who want to help the less fortunate and for the people who seem to dislike poor people. We call that a win win situation.

 

[mikethelegacy]

30 years? Haha are you serious? Obviously no one's forgotten or this wouldn't even be an issue.

Are you implying race and income aren't related or something?

Matter of fact, it's been longer than 30 years.

Besides, you're the one making it an issue. I don't see picket lines and riots outside of CEC, and I pass it everyday going home from work.

But I'm done arguing this. I refuse to fight on a hockey board.

 

[VirginiaBob]

Are you implying race and income aren't related or that the area isn't mostly black? Is this a fantasy land?

Just because I mentioned college educated Engineers, doctors, lawyers, doesn't mean I was talking about Asian Americans versus African Americans. I know both Asian American and African American professionals in each of those positions who do quite well. You obviously have something against Asians. Why do you hate Asians so much?

 

[blueliner18]

The Pittsburgh Sports and Exhibition Authority owned the Civic Arena and the land upon which it was built. The Penguins never had a say in whether it was to remain, or if it should be torn down.
"The Civic Arena closed on June 26, 2010. The former Mellon naming rights expired soon after, and the Penguins and all other events moved across the street to the new Consol Energy Center. The arena's owner, the Sports & Exhibition Authority of Pittsburgh and Allegheny County, initially voted in September 2010 to demolish the building in 2011. However, in November 2010, the arena was nominated for Pittsburgh historic status at the last minute, and demolition was delayed. A final vote by the Pittsburgh Historic Review Commission on the nomination was held on March 2, 2011. The result was the HRC declining the arena for historic status. After votes from City Planning and Pittsburgh City Council also declined historic status, a federal lawsuit was filed by those who wish to save the arena in from demolition. The 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals denied the lawsuit. Demolition began on September 26, 2011 and was completed on March 31, 2012. In its place, existing public parking lots around the building were expanded over the entire site."

 

[Ogrezilla]

Are you implying race and income aren't related or that the area isn't mostly black? Is this a fantasy land?

Unless its changed very recently, Pittsburgh has one of the biggest gaps between average black income and average white income in the entire country. Obviously they are looking for misguided moral high ground by being "colorblind"

 

[blueliner18]

...but really, they should have left the arena there!!! That would have really helped the economy in the hill district... an empty building with no tenants, much like most of the other buildings in the hill district. Plus are the Pens not doing their part by stating that they plan to build future office and retail space in that area, plus now they have to hire half of the hill district on top of it, just because they purchased the land?!?!?

 

[UnrealMachine]

Curious as to what angry white guy thinks the actual demographics are in Pittsburgh? Hill District?

 

[Fordy]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say the same people telling the people who had their homes and businesses destroyed to in all caps GET OVER IT are the one *****ing and moaning about their taxes every year.

 

[Fordy]

Just because I mentioned college educated Engineers, doctors, lawyers, doesn't mean I was talking about Asian Americans versus African Americans. I know both Asian American and African American professionals in each of those positions who do quite well. You obviously have something against Asians. Why do you hate Asians so much?

That doesn't sound like "I have a black friend" to you?

 

[Shady Machine]

More jobs for people in the Hill means less people in the Hill will be poor. That's good for the people who want to help the less fortunate and for the people who seem to dislike poor people. We call that a win win situation.

I agree in principle. Access to decent jobs within close proximity of their community is huge for lifting people out of poverty.

If they go the retail and restaurant route, I hope some of the development is focused on locally owned businesses. That helps keep money in the city.

 

[VirginiaBob]

Are you implying race and income aren't related or that the area isn't mostly black? Is this a fantasy land?

That doesn't sound like "I have a black friend" to you?

No, but I have lots of Asian friends since I am Asian. Why do you hate me because of my race? Just because we are more successful than you I guess.

 

[mikethelegacy]

Are you implying race and income aren't related or that the area isn't mostly black? Is this a fantasy land?

You're missing the point. There is an obviously large black culture in the Hill District, and inner-city low income residents are typically black, but I could care less about their color. If it was a poor, hillbilly, white trash-dominated area I still wouldn't want them living closer to me. If it were a rich, mafia-driven Italian community, I wouldn't want them living closer to me.

Trust me, I sympathize with a lot of the residents of the Hill District, because a lot of them are good people who are stuck there, but there is also a lot of gang activity up there as well. Gang activity + busy multipurpose arena where families take their children do not mix.

The Hill District can be rewarded in different ways. I'm sure a fair portion of property taxes and leasing charges will be going to the HDLs.

 

[Fordy]

No, but I have lots of Asian friends since I am Asian. Why do you hate me because of my race?

Now who's playing the race card?

 

[Shady Machine]

Come on guys. Let's not get this thread shut down by bickering over stupid ****. The topic is relevant but will get nixed if this is kept up.

 

[Fordy]

You're missing the point. There is an obviously large black culture in the Hill District, and inner-city low income residents are typically black, but I could care less about their color. If it was a poor, hillbilly, white trash-dominated area I still wouldn't want them living closer to me. If it were a rich, mafia-driven Italian community, I wouldn't want them living closer to me.

Trust me, I sympathize with a lot of the residents of the Hill District, because a lot of them are good people who are stuck there, but there is also a lot of gang activity up there as well. Gang activity + busy multipurpose arena where families take their children do not mix.

The Hill District can be rewarded in different ways. I'm sure a fair portion of property taxes and leasing charges will be going to the HDLs.

How about jobs? Blueliner believes they deserve 0. The Penguins think they deserve the city-mandated minimum which currently does little to affect the poverty levels in that area. The Hill District are asking for 10% above that and the Penguins don't want to give it to them.

 

[blueliner18]

Sounds like a great family atmosphere... after the game take the wife and kids for a bite to eat in the projects across the street!!! HDL's are what are mostly what is slowing this process... complaining about lack of affordable housing, aka Govenment housing, aka projects. Again facts...
"They (Penguins) intended to choose between developers by the end of the summer 2013,[12] but as of Spring 2014, no final plans have been forthcoming. Delays are partially attributed to complaints lingering from Hill District resident-groups claiming not enough affordable housing was included in the initial plans, as well as the Penguins looking to work with a new Mayor as of January 2014.[13] The site remains as a parking lot as of March 2014."

 

[Fordy]

Sounds like a great family atmosphere... after the game take the wife and kids for a bite to eat in the projects across the street!!! HDL's are what are mostly what is slowing this process... complaining about lack of affordable housing, aka Govenment housing, aka projects. Again facts...
"They (Penguins) intended to choose between developers by the end of the summer 2013,[12] but as of Spring 2014, no final plans have been forthcoming. Delays are partially attributed to complaints lingering from Hill District resident-groups claiming not enough affordable housing was included in the initial plans, as well as the Penguins looking to work with a new Mayor as of January 2014.[13] The site remains as a parking lot as of March 2014."

What a shame that repaying debts properly takes time. What a shame that your family has to see poor people that have no jobs and nowhere else to live after their business and homes were leveled for a theater. Poor you, it must be hard.

 

[mikethelegacy]

How about jobs? Blueliner believes they deserve 0. The Penguins think they deserve the city-mandated minimum. The Hill District are asking for 10% above that and the Penguins don't want to give it to them.

I'm not arguing that. I'm fine with them getting a higher percentage of jobs. I just don't think housing there is the best idea. To me, housing is a fixed income. Say you have 50 houses, you can only earn income from the rent on those 50 houses.

If businesses go there instead, the income earned is variable because obviously leasing fees are higher for businesses, as well as property tax, etc. Much more money to be made from businesses than housing.

Plus, this can't be a one-way street. The HDL's have to do thing ON the Hill to improve themselves as well. There is just nothing to attract people to go to the Hill right now. I agree with someone earlier that said they should build a Jazz/Blues bar there. That would awesome, and I would frequent that for sure.

Literally the only thing we are disagreeing on is the housing. I'm all for providing jobs to those who need them. The more people that have jobs, and can contribute to the economy, the better.

 

[Fordy]

I'm not arguing that. I'm fine with them getting a higher percentage of jobs. I just don't think housing there is the best idea. To me, housing is a fixed income. Say you have 50 houses, you can only earn income from those 50 houses.

If businesses go there instead, the income earned is variable because obviously leasing fees are higher for businesses, as well as property tax, etc.

Literally the only thing we are disagreeing on is the housing. I'm all for providing jobs to those who need them. The more people that have jobs, and can contribute to the economy, the better.

You don't think having a house affects people having jobs and contributing to the economy? 8000 homes were destroyed. You don't even want to put 1000 of them back?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I agree with that. I don't know where the line is since I'm not overly familiar with all the history.

Some good sites for the history of the Hill, and it's place in Jazz History:

https://sites.google.com/site/pittsburghmusichistory/pittsburgh-music-story/jazz/hill-district

http://explorepahistory.com/story.php?storyId=1-9-D&chapter=1

The Crawford Grill was one of the main places where every Jazz great had played, but there were at least a dozen others, and many Jazz greats got their start in Pittsburgh.

I have an appreciation for the history, and yes, what happened a half century ago was in many ways tragic, although as we saw in many other of our communities who did not have an arena built in the middle of them who also declined in the 70's on, blaming the arena is short sighted.

Nor is Eminent domain a solely african american issue, or tragedy. It happens daily all across the country.

As I have said I have sympathy and an appreciation for the history, but things already have been done, and are being done, to address the community. At some point you have to draw the line and look to the greater good of the entire city and region, not just the hill.

 

[blueliner18]

You're missing the point. There is an obviously large black culture in the Hill District, and inner-city low income residents are typically black, but I could care less about their color. If it was a poor, hillbilly, white trash-dominated area I still wouldn't want them living closer to me. If it were a rich, mafia-driven Italian community, I wouldn't want them living closer to me.

Trust me, I sympathize with a lot of the residents of the Hill District, because a lot of them are good people who are stuck there, but there is also a lot of gang activity up there as well. Gang activity + busy multipurpose arena where families take their children do not mix.

The Hill District can be rewarded in different ways. I'm sure a fair portion of property taxes and leasing charges will be going to the HDLs.

Ditto!!! A slum is a slum, a project a project, a bad neighborhood a bad neighborhood... regardless of what ethnic diversity or race that resides there.