What Needs to Happen This Offseason? Part II

[tigervixxxen]

Let's try to keep all the offseason discussion here. Proposals, rumors and such can still go in the thread that's stickied but everything else should go here.

Click to read more...

 

[tigervixxxen]

Am I the only one who sees that we're going to have the opposite problem of too many defensemen next year? EJ, Barrie, Beauchemin, Zadorov, Bigras, Holden, Stuart, Gelinas. That's 8, unless we both bury Stuart (I still don't take that for granted) and trade Holden (Gelinas basically replaces him) we'll have too many Dmen, not too few. Bigras and Zadorov are both locks for the NHL next season. My vision is:

Barrie - EJ
Beauch - Zadorov
Bigras - Gelinas
Holden

We don't really need another defenseman except for a cheap #7-8 not-Bodnarchuck, which none of the veterans/Harmonic/Yandle would be. Holden is overpaid for that #7 spot anyway, I'd rather have Siemens/Gormley playing there instead.

No you are not the only one. I've been saying this for about 9 months now. Every time there was a report about the Avs desperately seeking defense I questioned how exactly are they going to add another guy for next year. I know the answer involves making someone go away by some sort of magic. And no we don't have the money for it either. And I also am not counting on Bigras and Zadorov as locks, they should be, but whenever we assume they actually are going to use one of our own prospects they don't.

 

[agentblack]

We've been looking for good defenders. And we arent attracting the ones we want that can actually be called NHL d men that can play 20 min a night and matchup against Kane, Kopitar, Tarasenko, etc. We keep dipping into the bargin bin because thats all we can get right now. For whatever reason (unattractive FA spot, not enough assets, money etc)
Hence we got too many supbar dmen.
So no its not like we have all these good dmen we dont know what to do with. We got alot of meh to bad.
We got 3 good defencemen. 2.5 to be brutally honest.

 

[tigervixxxen]

We've been looking for good defenders. And we arent attracting the ones we want that can actually be called NHL d men that can play 20 min a night and matchup against Kane, Kopitar, Tarasenko, etc. We keep dipping into the bargin bin because thats all we can get right now. For whatever reason (unattractive FA spot, not enough assets, money etc)
Hence we got too many supbar dmen.
So no its not like we have all these good dmen we dont know what to do with. We got alot of meh to bad.
We got 3 good defencemen. 2.5 to be brutally honest.

Oh I don't disagree there and I know most teams in the league all could use another top 4 D. But the question is how exactly is that going to happen with a) the bodies currently under contract b) needing some semblance of icetime for both our promising kids c) the finite cap and the Radulov dream d) how to get one with the few assets, money and roster spots we have available.

 

[agentblack]

Oh I don't disagree there and I know most teams in the league all could use another top 4 D. But the question is how exactly is that going to happen with a) the bodies currently under contract b) needing some semblance of icetime for both our promising kids c) the finite cap and the Radulov dream d) how to get one with the few assets, money and roster spots we have available.

Well thats what they need to figure out. I have no clue. We really do need another top4 guy. Its not like we have 5 and its lovely to add another. We actually do need one. Hell you can make an argument the way Barrie plays we need 2
I mean if its possible you bring in a capable defender wayy before you even dream about Radulov or Boedker. But they wont do that. They are gonna sign this cat for like 6 large and leave the kids back there to fend for themselves. Beauch will break down around January and EJ will have his yearly injury for about 15 games.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Pretty much. My worry is it won't then be the kids fending for themselves it will still be some collection of Holden, Gelinas, Stuart, worse, etc.

 

[agentblack]

Yep. Avs desperation for D talent is reaching embarrassing levels.

Sather: Hey Joe we got some Stu Bickel for ya, interested?
Joe: OMG! please for the love of christ YES!..a 2nd is good right? Just help us please Glen

 

[McMetal]

No you are not the only one. I've been saying this for about 9 months now. Every time there was a report about the Avs desperately seeking defense I questioned how exactly are they going to add another guy for next year. I know the answer involves making someone go away by some sort of magic. And no we don't have the money for it either. And I also am not counting on Bigras and Zadorov as locks, they should be, but whenever we assume they actually are going to use one of our own prospects they don't.

I thought Sakic himself confirmed this in his presser, the same one where he emphatically said that Roy is the coach next year.

 

[tigervixxxen]

True, that's their plan at least. Things happen but it's good he confirmed his intention.

 

[shadow1]

If Colorado plans to sign a defenseman, they will definitely need to move someone, and by someone I mean Nick Holden.

Holden is too good to be on the bench every night but is the worst guy in the line-up. Trading Eric Gelinas does nothing, he's a reserve at best.

 

[BaconNater]

Dropping in just to say get new jerseys. Please!

 

[PAZ]

Holden should be playing 3rd pairing minutes, he'd look decent (dare I say good) getting 12-15 minutes a night. Gelinas as the extra.

Ideally, our top 4 will be a mix of EJ/Barrie/Beauch/Zadarov/Bigras. That's a lot of pressure putting on two kids, but there's really no other answer. If neither of them can take the next step, we miss the playoffs; it's as simple as that. However, watching the playoffs it's painfully obvious we'll miss the post-season anyways unless our system gets completely revamped.

 

[Bender]

No you are not the only one. I've been saying this for about 9 months now. Every time there was a report about the Avs desperately seeking defense I questioned how exactly are they going to add another guy for next year. I know the answer involves making someone go away by some sort of magic. And no we don't have the money for it either. And I also am not counting on Bigras and Zadorov as locks, they should be, but whenever we assume they actually are going to use one of our own prospects they don't.

I don't understand this line of thinking. How exactly is it magical to make a d-man go away when :

EJ - keep
Beauchemin - keep
*Barrie - *could* be traded - depends on what you can get (no, not a futures-type of deal)
Holden - could be traded OR buried at a cost of roughly $700K against the cap
Gelinas - likely kept as depth d-man BUT the same applies to Holden applies to him as far as being buried in AHL.
Zadorov - could be sent back to AHL for more development (not saying it will happen but it's an option)
Bigras - could be sent back to AHL for more development (not saying it will happen but it's an option)
Stuart - if Chris Pronger and his $4.9M contract can be traded as a salary cap move to get to the floor, then I don't understand why the same couldn't be true of Stuart. Even then, if NO one is interested in that, he can be put on LTIR for all of next year giving us $3.6M cap space if we need it.

So out of all of the guys that we're stuck-with, I'm actually counting 3-4 guys that are probably for sure in the lineup next year. EJ, Beauch, Barrie/traded guy + Gelinas.

There is room to make moves if we need to. Will they make the necessary moves? That is another question.

 

[AslanRH]

I'm more solid in my conviction now that this team is at the point where they should just not do anything drastic.

If you are keeping the coaching staff, you may as well just add in the young guys full time (Zads, Bigras, and Rants), decide if you want Boeds or Radulov, move what you can in assets that aren't part of the future, and look to find some complementary gems like what Matthias appeared to be.

I'll take that with another season of having bubble team expectations over another major roster overhaul again.

 

[AslanRH]

I don't understand this line of thinking. How exactly is it magical to make a d-man go away when :

Stuart - if Chris Pronger and his $4.9M contract can be traded as a salary cap move to get to the floor, then I don't understand why the same couldn't be true of Stuart. Even then, if NO one is interested in that, he can be put on LTIR for all of next year giving us $3.6M cap space if we need it.

Agree with most of your post, it isn't as bad as some think.
However;
Pronger's salary was less than 600k. Stuart's is 6 times that. Pronger was a lock never play ever again, we don't know that for sure about Stuart.

It won't be near as easy to move Stuart's contract, and he's not a sure fire LTIR guy at least that we know yet.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's magic to count on getting a problem to disappear, either getting someone to take Holden or assuming Stuart can go on LTIR. Obviously if they want to trade Barrie or send Bigras to the AHL they can, that does not fulfill the roster hopes and dreams of people posting here though.

 

[CobraAcesS]

It's magic to count on getting a problem to disappear, either getting someone to take Holden or assuming Stuart can go on LTIR. Obviously if they want to trade Barrie or send Bigras to the AHL they can, that does not fulfill the roster hopes and dreams of people posting here though.

I do think moving Holden is realistic, as he is worth his contract as a bottom pairing guy. He should be a touch better than the guys available at that price in UFA I think.

With that being said, there really shouldn't be an expectation on value received.

Berra's contract will be interesting though, does he go over seas? Because trading him might be interesting although not impossible.

In everything I've done two of those contracts need to be moved, of Mitchell, Holden, Berra, Gelinas. I moved Holden & Berra myself, with Mitchell as a backup option.

 

[ABasin]

I don't understand this line of thinking. How exactly is it magical to make a d-man go away when :

EJ - keep
Beauchemin - keep
*Barrie - *could* be traded - depends on what you can get (no, not a futures-type of deal)
Holden - could be traded OR buried at a cost of roughly $700K against the cap
Gelinas - likely kept as depth d-man BUT the same applies to Holden applies to him as far as being buried in AHL.
Zadorov - could be sent back to AHL for more development (not saying it will happen but it's an option)
Bigras - could be sent back to AHL for more development (not saying it will happen but it's an option)
Stuart - if Chris Pronger and his $4.9M contract can be traded as a salary cap move to get to the floor, then I don't understand why the same couldn't be true of Stuart. Even then, if NO one is interested in that, he can be put on LTIR for all of next year giving us $3.6M cap space if we need it.

So out of all of the guys that we're stuck-with, I'm actually counting 3-4 guys that are probably for sure in the lineup next year. EJ, Beauch, Barrie/traded guy + Gelinas.

There is room to make moves if we need to. Will they make the necessary moves? That is another question.

Good thoughts there.

Though I still maintain that there's no guarantee that Stuart is going to be LTIR next season.

Zadorov and Bigras spending another season in the AHL? Well, I suppose that is in fact plausible. But then that's ugly business for the Avs. If those guys go to San Antonio, Holden is staying exactly where he is. Try out this appetizer:

EJ-Beauchemin (36 years old)
Holden-Barrie
Gelinas-Stuart (37 years old)

Yum.

I have difficulty envisioning a scenario where the Avs don't have either Zadorov or Bigras (or both) as regulars in the lineup.

 

[Ivan13]

Good thing they traded for Gelinas at the deadline. Now they can trade Barrie and just slot Holden 2.0 in his place. Added a core player for a measly 3rd round pick.

 

[hockeyfish]

Get 2nd overall in lottery, draft Laine. Sign Radulov 1 year 5 million, sign Matthias 3 year 2 million, trade Barrie for Hamonic, trade Holden for best pick available, sign Polak 3 year 3 million, LTIR Stuart, sign Pickard 2 years 1.25 million...

Laine Duchene Radulov
Landeskog MacKinnon Rantanen
Matthias Soderberg Comeau
McLoed Mitchell Iginla
Filler

Beauchemin Johnson
Zadorov Hamonic
Bigras Polak
Gelinas filler

Varly
Picks

Leaves about 1 million assuming a 74 million cap.

 

[ABasin]

Get 2nd overall in lottery,

How? What would that cost in a trade?

 

[hockeyfish]

How? What would that cost in a trade?

Lotto.

 

[detrude]

We've been looking for good defenders. And we arent attracting the ones we want that can actually be called NHL d men that can play 20 min a night and matchup against Kane, Kopitar, Tarasenko, etc. We keep dipping into the bargin bin because thats all we can get right now. For whatever reason (unattractive FA spot, not enough assets, money etc)
Hence we got too many supbar dmen.
So no its not like we have all these good dmen we dont know what to do with. We got alot of meh to bad.
We got 3 good defencemen. 2.5 to be brutally honest.

Yeah, and how many UFA defenders signed the past 3 years can actually play against those guys? Hint: 0. This team signs bargain bin guys because that's all that hit UFA. Beauchemin and Sekera were the best on the market last year, and the Avs made offers to both. Sekera took the term Edmonton offered, we landed Beauch. The year before they apparently made comparable offers to what Niskanen and Orpik actually signed, they just ended up going to Washington (and most of us were relieved). They went after Leddy (Hawks wanted him east) and Boychuk (who knows?), and it didn't work out. So outside of a big trade (O'reilly), adding good defenders is damn near impossible. Even the guys people are talking about this summer (Polak, Russell) are lower end 4/5/6 types that won't fix anything, it'll just be more of the same.

 

[tigervixxxen]

We didn't have the assets to trade for Leddy and Boychuk

 

[Big Bad Zad]

Get 2nd overall in lottery, draft Laine. Sign Radulov 1 year 5 million, sign Matthias 3 year 2 million, trade Barrie for Hamonic, trade Holden for best pick available, sign Polak 3 year 3 million, LTIR Stuart, sign Pickard 2 years 1.25 million...

Laine Duchene Radulov
Landeskog MacKinnon Rantanen
Matthias Soderberg Comeau
McLoed Mitchell Iginla
Filler

Beauchemin Johnson
Zadorov Hamonic
Bigras Polak
Gelinas filler

Varly
Picks

Leaves about 1 million assuming a 74 million cap.

I like this a lot , but where is Grigorenko? I'd rather have him then Mitchell. Move Mitchell then bump Matthias to 4C and put Grig at 3lw