What is your understanding of "Proper Development" of all the kids

[Jumptheshark]

If the mods think this topic is being covered in other thread feal free merge or lock this one.

We are in year 3 the rebuild. For me the rebuild officially started with the drafting of Hall. Last year we had several threads complaining about how the kids were not being developed properly because the vets were playing too many minutes. This year, the top two lines up front, are all the kids(accept hemsky) and we still complain.

Here is the question

What is you definition of proper development for the kids on the team(most are not old enough to drink stateside)

What are the oilers doing right ?
What are they doiing wrong?
What needs to change to help the development of the kids?

We have changed coaches three times in 5 years

While we are looking at the win/loses so far this year. I have spent more time looking at all the other stats. For me this year was never about winning or losing, but the kids developing and learning the NHL game.

There are some nasty stats out there but the kids are playing tougher minutes this year then they did last year.

Some people will post trade more players

here is the list of players still in the organization from 09-10 season

Sam Gagner
Shawn Horcoff
Ales Hemsky
Ryan Whitney(aquired at the deadline)
Ladislav Smid
Ryan Jones(waiver pickup midsseason)
Alex Plante
Theo Peckham
Nikolai Khabibulin
Devan Dubnyk

1 player is on the farm, 2 players are injured, one player is considered the number 7 d-man(peckham)

that means we have only 4 players on the roster that started the 09/10 season as an oiler playing tonight. We have cut away lots of dead meat that we viewed as being part of the problem. THis year the kids are getting the ice time most want them to get, however, I think some people assume they will develop fast then the actually can.

Here is something to think about
the average age of the top 11 pts getters for this team is 23.72-- that incudes Smyth who is 36--take him out it goes down 22.5 average age.

When Horcoff plays he is on the third line, when you play two top lines of Hall-Nuge-Eberle, MPS-Gagner-Yakupov--we had that lline up a few times--average age of that is 20.5 years.

We have a young team and a young team will struggle on most nights.
Are we expecting too much too soon from the kids?

Click to read more...

 

[DJ EarWax]

Can we start by not calling them "kids"?

 

[smackdaddy]

The problem is that management thinks it can employ this method of throwing our players into the fire. Don't get me wrong, they are perfectly NHL ready but that doesn't mean they are #1 line ready, or #1 center ready, or #1 defenseman ready. It almost feels like they can get away with not getting the proper personnel and instead hoping the rookies will just develop into those roles.

That isn't happening. I'm a big proponent of the idea of mentorship. I think if we want a true #1 center we need to surround the rookies with the type of player and mentality that foster it. As it stands now the team lives and dies off the kids. For all intents and purposes, Hall and Eberle ARE the captains because of Injurcoff in the IR and them being called upon to lead the team. It shouldn't come to a surprise when all their talent and skill hits a brick wall and they have no idea what to do. How could they? No one is there to show them. Krueger and his honey'd words can say all they want but it doesn't help Eberle and his confidence nor does it help RNH or Hall deal with the weight of the team on their shoulders.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Can we start by not calling them "kids"?

I used kids for a reason, I think some of forget how young they are and that they are still learning

BTW


4 coaches in 5 years

Mact to Quinn to Renney to the new guy who people want to fire already

 

[Bank Shot]

So many fans on this board have consistenly called for prospects/young players to play over vets.

After seeing it for 4 seasons and seeing how bad it is to watch I wonder if anyone has flipped sides to giving vets the benefit of the doubt sometimes?

 

[CanadianSuperPromise]

We're developing the kids completely wrong IMO....

Essentially what we're doing is throwing physically immature rookies into situations against fully developed men in a rough, physical conference. Which may be fine, except we don't have a support cast to support their development. We have no veteran leadership, no top physical players to help make space on ice and protect the younger guys, no defense minded forwards to help cover for the younger guys, so they slowly develop thier defensive game and no solid depth to shelter the players who need a break. Look at how Chicago and Pittsburgh developed thier guys, they all had solid support cast, they covered all aspects of the game, so Crosby and Kane etc. could work on thier game, without having to hold up the entire team on their own.

 

[smackdaddy]

So many fans on this board have consistenly called for prospects/young players to play over vets.

After seeing it for 4 seasons and seeing how bad it is to watch I wonder if anyone has flipped sides to giving vets the benefit of the doubt sometimes?

The problem was our vets sucked donkey balls.

 

[Bank Shot]

The problem was our vets sucked donkey balls.

And now that the vets aren't there to play the crappy minutes, fans are complaining about the kids.

If you have a bad team, odds are the vets aren't going to be great, but when this team had a lot of crappy vets at least they weren't finishing in last every season.

 

[DJ EarWax]

I used kids for a reason, I think some of forget how young they are and that they are still learning

Ya, when I was 19, 20, 21, I was far from a kid.

 

[Frank the Tank]

The Penguins brought in a guy like Guerin to help develop Crosby. Is there any over the hill former star players that would be available this off-season? Even if the Oilers must overpay. Alfredsson and Iginla, the only two players can think of, will not come to Edmonton.

 

[smackdaddy]

The Penguins brought in a guy like Guerin to help develop Crosby. Is there any over the hill former star players that would be available this off-season? Even if the Oilers must overpay. Alfredsson and Iginla, the only two players can think of, will not come to Edmonton.

Jagr would've been ok. We wouldn't pay.

Arnott was available. He would have been some good toughness. Apparently he's gone "soft" lately. The absolute worst signing would have been Kovalev. Could you imagine?

Weight could have been brought in in some capacity, but I'm not too much of a fan of off-ice help.

For next year? Gonchar for a year would be ok next year. Elias would be nice. Saku Koivu.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Ya, when I was 19, 20, 21, I was far from a kid.

well I am 42 and have spent most of the last ten years developing prople in the hotell industry here in London(both men and women) between the ages of 16 to 22 and So I have a different perspective then some people on developing talent and my view of people developing both emitionall and physically during that time is interesting and maybe slightly different then some. One of the first thing I learned was that is some cases you can not rush them and having too many staff members to develop at the same time is a bad idea. IN one of my previous hotels I had 80% staff that would be viewed as being developed to be able to do their job correctly. However, when I did there apprasials it became obvious that there were developing at different rates partly due to the support I was able to provide them. When I was not working at my top assistant was in charge of the shift, he did little or no training with them and they had become stagnent and when I came back, they were often behind where I had left them before my days off.

BTW when you were 19.20.21 you may view youself as being far from a kid--but your co-workers may have a different view on things

 

[alexo]

I think the youth are doing fine, and I don't really have a problem with the coaching. I don't see any stupid decisions.. I just see a whole lot of players not doing their jobs, and I'd say in a lot of cases it's not the core guys... it's the bottom six nobodies. We need some secondary scoring from these guys, and they are letting us down. And while I thought our backend is much improved, with Fistric out and having to cycle through the bums in that 6th spot, things don't look so sexy on the blueline anymore.

 

[Seedling]

I think the youth are doing fine, and I don't really have a problem with the coaching. I don't see any stupid decisions.. I just see a whole lot of players not doing their jobs, and I'd say in a lot of cases it's not the core guys... it's the bottom six nobodies. We need some secondary scoring from these guys, and they are letting us down. And while I thought our backend is much improved, with Fistric out and having to cycle through the bums in that 6th spot, things don't look so sexy on the blueline anymore.

Sexy was traded to Minnie, or so I've heard.

 

[NewBoysClub97*]

We cannot do it because our vets are not good enough, but the ideal way is to go the Detroit/Vancouver route. They had guys like the Sedins playing behind the Naslund line for a long time. Slowly coming along.

It looks painful so far because Hall and Co are going straight up against top lines pretty quick.

 

[NewBoysClub97*]

Spector just tweeted some numbers comparing Hall and Eberles third years to the sedins:

Sedins, in 3rd NHL season, combined to avg 0.42 pts/game. Hall & Eberle's 3rd season, they avg. 0.9 pts/game. Intangibles will take time.

Who knows what their peak will be, but Hall and them are basically learning on the first line instead of being brought up slowly.

 

[McDNicks17]

We're doing a great job developing the kids.

They're going to look awesome on their new teams after they've demanded a trade.


I'm so bitter right now I can't even bring myself to put the sarcasm smiley after that.

 

[CanadianSuperPromise]

Spector just tweeted some numbers comparing Hall and Eberles third years to the sedins:

Sedins, in 3rd NHL season, combined to avg 0.42 pts/game. Hall & Eberle's 3rd season, they avg. 0.9 pts/game. Intangibles will take time.

Who knows what their peak will be, but Hall and them are basically learning on the first line instead of being brought up slowly.

what line were the sedin's playing in their third year? seems strange to compare the two to our kids.

 

[Mr Forever]

Ya, when I was 19, 20, 21, I was far from a kid.

I'm turning 20 this year and I'd still consider myself a kid haha

 

[NewBoysClub97*]

what line were the sedin's playing in their third year? seems strange to compare the two to our kids.

He was not comparing them directly really. He was just saying the Sedins took a more slower path coming up the lines because they already had Big Bert and Naslund there. They could afford to cushion them. In Edmonton our guys are playing big minutes and learning against tough competition and not doing really bad at it.

 

[CanadianSuperPromise]

He was not comparing them directly really. He was just saying the Sedins took a more slower path coming up the lines because they already had Big Bert and Naslund there. They could afford to cushion them. In Edmonton our guys are playing big minutes and learning against tough competition and not doing really bad at it.

oh ok, sorry i didn't really see the whole twitter conversation.

 

[BadMedicine*]

The Oilers are not a developmental team in a developmental league.

These young men are here to work, to perform a job that needs to be done, there is competition within their industry like all others and they need to bring the proper attitudes to work every day and they need to put themselves in a position to succeed by not just woking hard but by working smart.

I dont see our young players as being weak at all, Nuge is actually a very tough player way beyond my expectations and as a coach and or GM I would not be letting him take the physical abuse he takes and I wouldnt allow him to be put in positions where he has to use his physicality over his skills, ever. Yakupov is a little tank and he keeps his head up so hes ok, Ebbs can take a very hard hit and he shows resilience and comeback ability, Hall is becoming a force and is still growing. Gagner is almost 200 lbs and holds his own . We are not putting immature bodies out there by any means.

The only tool we have to develop our young players is the system we teach them to defend and weild. That is all we have to work with.

The veteran leadership story is BS if you are losing three out of four games all year long. We arent just a young team we are a core of #1 overall draft picks, this is unique and needs to be addressed in a fitting manner. We have many players who are used to providing elite results, we have many Alpha mindsets, more than we have |Alpha roles to fill. We need to let the group grow together and learn to defend and execute the system together, they need a common cause, they need a catalyst that goes beyond borders, and that has to be the system and the priority players who execute it. We need to let them decide who should lead them based on who they all know is the key to winning, because we keep losing they are in a type of limbo and it is slowing their development across the board. we need results based leadership in a room with this much skill talent and leadership potential.

The only proper way to develop these young players is to treat them like men and stop *****footing around, we need to give them the ball and let them run with it. Let them be both responsible and accountable and give them opportunity for redemption as soon as they screw up, put them back out immediatly and do not screw with their competative spirits.

We do not have a very good growing environment here right now, our managment group is gunshy and much to caught up in themselves to simply let the men play out there unimpeded. Glen Sather and peter Puck had the guts to do this , if we want to see that type of team bonding then we need to create the environment in which that special bond can develop and this means hands off from the coaches and go get em boys.

We need to understand that this group needs to be handled using Intuative Dynamic Analysis. Thismuch skill talent and leadership ability needs to be dealt with in a special way. Starting with the system itself and going right to the dynamic line combos, Intuative Dynamic Analysis must be applied to each facet of the environment this group develops in. There is no other possible way to deal with this mix of Alpha personalitys at these young ages, they are all developing concurrently and this means that they need to constantly be challenged and constantly be given opportunitys to be all they can be and to assume responsibility and take risks and pay consequences, to do all these things they need to play and they need a consistant system application and consistant linemates.

Hall-Nuge-Eberle

MPS-Gagner-Yakupov

This is our top six core group. They need to stay in these exact lines and develop together assuming resonsibility equally and paying consequences equally. These lines cannot change, the system can change but these dynamic combonations ,ust remain the same. Sam Gagner plays outside of the system or he wouldnt be creating any offense at all, he has learned how to execute his system duties fully and then how to find room within that dynamic to create non-system generated offense almost at will. Gagner is a line catalyst and must remain so. Nuge needs to now develop the ability Sam has developed and he needs to define how he wants to catalyse his own line, but because Nuge has no clue how to do what Sam does he is being stonewalled by the system itself. Nuge needs to be given control, Samwise rips control away after he executes system requirements in those tiny spaces left over, now Nuge needs to learn how to do this how to focus on system execution first but maintain a peripheral eye on offense catalysed from outside the systems dynamic actions. Its called due dilligence, you make sure you take care of business before you moonlight. Nuge will get it if he starts paying attention to what Gagners doing out there, I thought he would tune in by now. These are small sequential adjustments anyone can make in 5 or 10 games.

So we need to keep these lines together and if we need a different look we switch em up in their entirity, we never break them up and we let the entire team know we will not break them up, we need a clear pecking order here, this is chaos right now.

Gagner and Hopkins are not required to create their tactics individually as per system structure, their linemates and the bottom six are hired to support them and those men need to stick to the system 100% to create a stable and consistant system platform the centermen can create offense out of, we need to start with a solid team base and let two little generals run the show, its that simple.

We need to let the young men know that they are keeping each other together with their hard work and results, they need to learn to count on each other not just the coaches, they need more control of their cumulative futures, they need to be given a conduit to have input and a degree of control on their futures within the system boundaries. The need to bond for real.

We need to implement Intuative Dynamic Analysis into their growth and evolution immediatly, they are literally starving for more responsibility and accountability. The reasons for using intuition over stats and structure is simple, there are to many Alpha mindsets here to expect them to abide by strict structure, man they all want to jump on the grenade, and if we arent carefull they will all meet in the middle at the wrong time and we will lose everyone at once in a massive catastrophe.

We need a mothers touch, we need Moma2 and the NewAge Hockey System to bevel off some of this groups rough edges, we need someone who can literally outsmart this group using something they lack and that is intuition.


You can only hurt these men by forcing them to lose to many games and by breaking their spirits and sapping their pride. They arent lacking cerebrally either so we cant expect them to accept losing for to long without demanding changes or making them themselves.

We need to give them a system they believe in and not just pep talks, if we treat them like men and with respect and integrity and are 100% all-in with them then we will develop a winning environment here. If we want to do all these things we need a new system of play that will allow them all to maximise their contributions and manifest the wins this group needs to grow and evolve at the NHL level.\\

Listen no kidding tonight i went for my evening meal to a Chineese spot I like, when we all got our Fortune Cookies and i opened mine I almost laughed out loud, it said "With Integrity and Consistancy your credits are piling up" to tell you the truth that comes straight out of the NewAge Hockey System handbook, ha ha ha. You should have see my friends and family laughing because they all know the NHS very well and are familiar with the common terminology, it was quite cool. Integrity and Consistancy, perfect. I am saving it for the NewAge Hockey System museum, ha ha ha.

There are only two things this roster can develop into , winners or losers and the results will stay with them for their entire lives. They are men and they all have voices that go along with their obligations, so they need to learn to speak up and be heard and take some control over their own destinys, they need to fight for their places in the world like all of us do. Development ended the day they signed their professional contracts. They are writing their own personal historys now, playtime is over, the developmental talk should end now and we should only talk in terms of wins and losses because that is what history will remember when these men retire.

 

[Tarus]

Development is fine. There was always going to be a learning curve once their competition level was bumped up, and we are seeing that now. Yakupov is being brought along slowly, Hall is productive, and RNH/Eberle are getting a crash course in top line defense 101. Their struggles are a bit overblown as well, two rookies added to the second worst team in the league with no warrior types, no forecheckers, no hitters, no grit, no front of the net types. It's a team fundamentally setup to fail, and everyone on the roster will struggle until management goes out and balances the roster.

It's not really a suprise thus far in the season that the oldest of the kids(Gagner), and the one with the elite drive(Hall) are the most successful either. It's a product of how difficult it is to be successful on a team that is easy to play against.

 

[BadMedicine*]

Development is fine. There was always going to be a learning curve once their competition level was bumped up, and we are seeing that now. Yakupov is being brought along slowly, Hall is productive, and RNH/Eberle are getting a crash course in top line defense 101. Their struggles are a bit overblown as well, two rookies added to the second worst team in the league with no warrior types, no forecheckers, no hitters, no grit, no front of the net types. It's a team fundamentally setup to fail, and everyone on the roster will struggle until management goes out and balances the roster.

It's not really a suprise thus far in the season that the oldest of the kids(Gagner), and the one with the elite drive(Hall) are the most successful either. It's a product of how difficult it is to be successful on a team that is easy to play against.

I agree with most of your assesments but I think hall has scalped points from his linemates by changing his game significantly and he just took the opportunitys first and he abandoned the pressure he exerted last year that helped the line suceed, he has really just been selfish and disrupted his lines chemistry by not providing Nuge with consistant system playactions to work out of, Hall has tried to take a playmakers role to much. So he isnt doing well because of his drive he simply undercut his entire line because he is over-driven totally and hasnt ever been properly utilised or controlled for 60 mins. Taylor has much more to offer than we have seen to date, we havent seen Nuges 2nd year of setting Hall up because this year screwed all their chemistry up. Hall is not superior to Nuge and needs to hear this right now, he has a long way to go because his role is a support role to Nuge and may be that way for ten years, look at how long Messier waited to lead, and when he was ready he was legendary and is a hall of famer because he was forced to bite the bit and wait it out for his chance, then that sucker took his show to broadway and wowed the entrie world. We need hall back to last years hall presenting consistant and system manifested playaction, not his individual Gagner impersonation which by the way is excellent, in fact I might consider putting taylor as my 3rd line center because of how good he has been at replicating Sams ability to create offense from outside of the system while maintaining his responsibilitys systemwise. Seriously why not, he would shine there and probably still produce points regularly. Put him with Smyth and Horcs and his speed will support them both.

Gagner is a 5 year veteran of this system and he has developed the ability to execute his system responsibilitys and then find offense from outside of the systems dynamic actions, he finds tiny cracks in the opponents system using his own on an individual level, the truth is that he learned this and can teach it if anyone takes the time to listen or pay close attention to what he does out there, to how closely he sticks to our system FIRST but also to how quickly he pounces on opponents weaknesses at the exact right times and jumps out of the system role he is in. It is a defined and learned process he is utilising and it works well. Maybe someone should ask him to explain it to the team. He is the true captain of this team, letter or not.

We are a system that is easy to play against, because we have a defensive trap mentality, if we adjust the system these men can become very hard to play against, but we arent focused on the rough and tumble style of hockey that makes us gritty and tough, we want to be smooth and high scoring, and break your wrist with a slash or cut you for stitches if you try to stop us, we want to hit you low and close to the knee and feed you elbows every chance we get. But we WILL NOT sacrifice offensive focus to do these things we will do these things to you as we are running you into the ice with our offense, we will hurt you so we can score not so we can stop you from scoring on us.

 

[Oiltankjob Fail]

Ya, when I was 19, 20, 21, I was far from a kid.

Let me guess you're 22