What happens with Roy and Montreal if December 2nd, 1995 is just a normal game?

[quoipourquoi]

Serge Savard oversaw some good drafting years in the '80s (though it's hard to know how much credit he deserves for this), but his trades were generally bad. He dismantled a very good and deep team.

The Habs defensemen in 1990 included:
Chris Chelios
Eric Desjardins
Mathieu Schneider
Petr Svoboda
Craig Ludwig
Sylvain Lefevbre
Jyrki Lumme

They could have sailed through the '90s and to the end of the DPE with this group. But they traded every single one of them, and this is the primary reason the team declined. They also traded their best young forward (LeClair), their best defensive forward (Carbonneau), and others.

The decline of the team is what led, ultimately, to the Roy trade. The team was going down with or without Roy. He was lucky to get out when he did, and obviously very lucky to be going to the best up-and-coming team in the NHL.

Patrick Roy was traded from a team - Montreal - that, months before - didn't make the playoffs with him, to a team - Colorado - that, months before, finished 2nd overall in the NHL without him.

I wouldn’t define the Montreal Canadiens’ trajectory by the lockout-shortened season. Obviously they made the playoffs in 1996, as well as 1997 and 1998 - the latter season seeing them with a GF:GA ratio of 235:208 to Colorado’s 231:205.

Even when they started missing the playoffs, it was largely because their offense cratered. The 1999-00 Montreal Canadiens were 4th in GA, so saying the change in defensive personnel is the primary reason for their decline doesn’t seem accurate.

 

[The Panther]

I wouldn’t define the Montreal Canadiens’ trajectory by the lockout-shortened season. Obviously they made the playoffs in 1996, as well as 1997 and 1998 - the latter season seeing them with a GF:GA ratio of 235:208 to Colorado’s 231:205.

Even when they started missing the playoffs, it was largely because their offense cratered. The 1999-00 Montreal Canadiens were 4th in GA, so saying the change in defensive personnel is the primary reason for their decline doesn’t seem accurate.

I agree with this. The Roy trade in Dec. 1995 was a boneheaded, mismanaged move that hurt the franchise a great deal, but it is more symbolic of the franchise's subsequent decline than it is the primary reason. I think the primary reason the Habs foundered soon after was poor management and lack of offensive skill. As much as the Roy trade hurt them, I think the trading away of many NHL-level defencemen (listed earlier in the thread) hurt them even more.

By the way, the Habs with Roy on the team were 12-11-1 up to his last game (vs. Detroit), and then were 28-21-9 after he sat out and was traded. And the Avalanche were 16-7-4 before he joined, and 31-18-6 after. Just sayin'.

 

[psycat]

Roy really comes across as huge tool in the clips, might be coach was one aswell but not much respect for Patrick(other han for his ability as a player of course).

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Didn't read all 3 pages of the thread...Wings win Cup in '96 & '99, maybe even 2000.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Didn't read all 3 pages of the thread...Wings win Cup in '96 & '99, maybe even 2000.

If all we're doing is subtracting Roy from the Avs and everything else in the universe stays the same, I'd still go with Dallas in '99. Then maybe 2000 is a toss up between Detroit, Dallas and NJ.

Took the '98 Wings 6 games to beat most of the '99 Stars team sans Nieuwendyk and Hull. Despite adding Chelios and others, the '99 Wings were way more banged up than they were in '98 and also weren't as deep.

 

[quoipourquoi]

If all we're doing is subtracting Roy from the Avs and everything else in the universe stays the same, I'd still go with Dallas in '99. Then maybe 2000 is a toss up between Detroit, Dallas and NJ.

Took the '98 Wings 6 games to beat most of the '99 Stars team sans Nieuwendyk and Hull. Despite adding Chelios and others, the '99 Wings were way more banged up than they were in '98 and also weren't as deep.

I could see that, especially with the way Ed Belfour was playing. Not many goaltenders play better when they have a chip on their shoulder the way Belfour did in 1999 and 2000. Dallas outshot Detroit 162-145 in 1998 (whereas Detroit outshot Colorado 224-184 and 144-127 in 1999 and 2000) and the Dallas roster only got better in 1999 and 2000, so if Belfour could hang with Osgood in follow-up matchups, I think Dallas has good odds.

 

[Staniowski]

I wouldn’t define the Montreal Canadiens’ trajectory by the lockout-shortened season. Obviously they made the playoffs in 1996, as well as 1997 and 1998 - the latter season seeing them with a GF:GA ratio of 235:208 to Colorado’s 231:205.

Even when they started missing the playoffs, it was largely because their offense cratered. The 1999-00 Montreal Canadiens were 4th in GA, so saying the change in defensive personnel is the primary reason for their decline doesn’t seem accurate.

The team declined before 2000.

The '99-'00 season which you refer to is interesting because 2 of the top 6 NHL scorers in ppg were Turgeon and Recchi, who were doing all this scoring for other teams. The Habs traded both of them for little in return. Damphousse was also traded for very little, and their current best forward, Saku Koivu, missed the large majority of the season. So, all of this would partly account for the decline in offense.

Defensemen like Chelios and Desjardins are crucial for both GF and GA.

The Habs were in decline before mid-decade. From their '93 Cup team, they traded their 2 best defensemen, their best forward, their best defensive forward, their best young forward. They also traded Chelios for little, and he was now one of the very best players in the NHL. They traded Claude Lemieux for little, he won the Conn Smythe in '95. And they gave away other good players too.

The character of the team changed. Savard was under a lot of pressure. He made some very damaging trades.

The decline caused the firing of Demers, the firing of Savard, and the trading of Roy (and Keane).

 

[mobilus]

The real irony is that after the trade, Detroit had to go through Patrick Roy in the playoffs five times in the next seven years. Roy/Avs knocked out the Wings three times, including the '95-96 season.