What group do you rank the Conn Smythe winners in?

[Big Phil]

Not every Conn Smythe winner is created equally. We know this. We've seen it. So since 1965 when the award was first given out, which ones do you rank as exceptional? In other words, there would be 4 groups: Exceptional, above average, average, and below the average. Just pick the exceptional ones that stood out. Which are they?

Exceptional:
Beliveau 1965 - 16 points in two rounds. 8 goals. Three game winners in the final
Orr 1970 - What can you say about it? Legendary
Orr 1972 - Was the difference in beating the Rangers. Tied Esposito in points
Parent 1974 - Silenced the Bruins
Parent 1975 - Second straight year he got a shutout in the clinching game
Lafleur 1977 - His best playoff, just utterly dominant
Robinson 1978 - Remember that end to end rush?
Gretzky 1985 - Statistically eye popping
Gretzky 1988 - More impressive than 1985, beat better teams
Lemieux 1991 - Played at a level only Gretzky had in postseason
Lemieux 1992 - 34 points in 15 games. Look closely, when he lifts the Cup he has a cast from the Graves slash
Roy 1993 - Probably had no business winning
Leetch 1994 - 34 points for a defenseman and still providing decent play in his own end
Sakic 1996 - 18 goals and it seemed like he scored all the time
Brad Richards 2004 - A record 7 game winners. He was such a force that year
Malkin 2009 - Stepped up, and had more points than anyone not named Coffey, Gretzky or Lemieux

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

Not every Conn Smythe winner is created equally. We know this. We've seen it. So since 1965 when the award was first given out, which ones do you rank as exceptional? In other words, there would be 4 groups: Exceptional, above average, average, and below the average. Just pick the exceptional ones that stood out. Which are they?

Exceptional:
Beliveau 1965 - 16 points in two rounds. 8 goals. Three game winners in the final
Orr 1970 - What can you say about it? Legendary
Orr 1972 - Was the difference in beating the Rangers. Tied Esposito in points
Parent 1974 - Silenced the Bruins
Parent 1975 - Second straight year he got a shutout in the clinching game
Lafleur 1977 - His best playoff, just utterly dominant
Robinson 1978 - Remember that end to end rush?
Gretzky 1985 - Statistically eye popping
Gretzky 1988 - More impressive than 1985, beat better teams
Lemieux 1991 - Played at a level only Gretzky had in postseason
Lemieux 1992 - 34 points in 15 games. Look closely, when he lifts the Cup he has a cast from the Graves slash
Roy 1993 - Probably had no business winning
Leetch 1994 - 34 points for a defenseman and still providing decent play in his own end
Sakic 1996 - 18 goals and it seemed like he scored all the time
Brad Richards 2004 - A record 7 game winners. He was such a force that year
Malkin 2009 - Stepped up, and had more points than anyone not named Coffey, Gretzky or Lemieux

The bolded don't seem THAT great to me.

As in -- we'd had to redefine the word "Exceptionnal" to make it fit. Great? Certainly.

The underlined... well, I might be showing my age, but I have troubles considering it "exceptionnal" if Al MacInnis (89) isn't.

 

[canucksfan]

Js Giguere?

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Tough question BP. I'd rank Lemieux's 92 as first. Playing with a broken hand, playing against a Keenan defensive system and I believe the Pens came back from being down 3-1 with Washington. Second, Gretzky's 88; sheer dominance. Three, Beliveau in 65. Outplaying Hull and Mikita in their prime. After these three I could go with just about anyone of them, but I have a soft spot for Lafleur in 77. After game two in that series, Wensink threatened to rip his head off on Boston ice. Lafleur's response? Two goals and two assists in game 3 (4-2) and two assists in game 4 (2-1).

 

[The Panther]

Pre-Conn Smythe: Beliveau's numbers in 1956 jump out as staggering. 12 goals and 19 points in 10 games, and won the Cup! And this when scoring was almost half what it was in the 70s/80s.

Gretzky in 1985 is his peak, I think. Started off slowly in 3 wins over L.A., then warmed up against Winnipeg, finishing with 4 goals and 3 assists in the final game. Torches Chicago in the Conference Final in maybe the wildest series ever -- his linemate, Kurri, scores 12 times in one series! Then, Gretzky scores 7 goals in the final 4 games of the Final against the League's top defence, Philly. What else can you say about 47 points in 18 games, except that he was also +28?

Roy in 1993 was incredible. Goes 16 and 4, and in one of the highest scoring seasons ever he has a .929 save percentage, while winning 10 overtime games! That is still unbelievable, however you analyze it. He just willed his team to victory.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Best from the four-round era:

Wayne Gretzky, 1985
Mario Lemieux, 1991
Patrick Roy, 1993
Brian Leetch, 1994
J.S. Giguere, 2003

Tier 2:

Mike Bossy, 1982
Patrick Roy, 1986
Wayne Gretzky, 1988
Mario Lemieux, 1992
Joe Sakic, 1996
Patrick Roy, 2001
Evgeni Malkin, 2009
Tim Thomas, 2011
Jonathan Quick, 2012

Tier 3:

Bryan Trottier, 1980
Billy Smith, 1983
Mark Messier, 1984
Ron Hextall, 1987
Al MacInnis, 1989
Steve Yzerman, 1998
Scott Stevens, 2000
Brad Richards, 2004
Henrik Zetterberg, 2008
Justin Williams, 2014

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981
Bill Ranford, 1990
Claude Lemieux, 1995
Mike Vernon, 1997
Joe Nieuwendyk, 1999
Nicklas Lidstrom, 2002
Cam Ward, 2006
Scott Niedermayer, 2007
Jonathan Toews, 2010
Patrick Kane, 2013

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Best from the four-round era:

Wayne Gretzky, 1985
Mario Lemieux, 1991
Patrick Roy, 1993
Brian Leetch, 1994
J.S. Giguere, 2003

Tier 2:

Mike Bossy, 1982
Patrick Roy, 1986
Wayne Gretzky, 1988
Mario Lemieux, 1992
Joe Sakic, 1996
Patrick Roy, 2001
Evgeni Malkin, 2009
Tim Thomas, 2011
Jonathan Quick, 2012

Tier 3:

Bryan Trottier, 1980
Billy Smith, 1983
Mark Messier, 1984
Ron Hextall, 1987
Al MacInnis, 1989
Steve Yzerman, 1998
Scott Stevens, 2000
Brad Richards, 2004
Henrik Zetterberg, 2008
Justin Williams, 2014

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981
Bill Ranford, 1990
Claude Lemieux, 1995
Mike Vernon, 1997
Joe Nieuwendyk, 1999
Nicklas Lidstrom, 2002
Cam Ward, 2006
Scott Niedermayer, 2007
Jonathan Toews, 2010
Patrick Kane, 2013

Good concept, but I think you are underrating defensemen and overrating goalies. There's no way Jonathan Quick in 2012 was better than Al MacInnis in 1989 or Scott Stevens in 2000. At minimum, I would bump up MacInnis and Stevens to Tier 2 and Lidstrom to Tier 3.

I also have trouble with Giguere in Tier 1, as he wasn't exactly spectacular in the finals, but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Good concept, but I think you are underrating defensemen and overrating goalies.

I don't know. That doesn't sound like something I would ever do.


EDIT: But yes, Al MacInnis should be Tier 2.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Best from the four-round era:

Wayne Gretzky, 1985
Mario Lemieux, 1991
Patrick Roy, 1993
Brian Leetch, 1994
J.S. Giguere, 2003

Tier 2:

Mike Bossy, 1982
Patrick Roy, 1986
Wayne Gretzky, 1988
Mario Lemieux, 1992
Joe Sakic, 1996
Patrick Roy, 2001
Evgeni Malkin, 2009
Tim Thomas, 2011
Jonathan Quick, 2012

Tier 3:

Bryan Trottier, 1980
Billy Smith, 1983
Mark Messier, 1984
Ron Hextall, 1987
Al MacInnis, 1989
Steve Yzerman, 1998
Scott Stevens, 2000
Brad Richards, 2004
Henrik Zetterberg, 2008
Justin Williams, 2014

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981
Bill Ranford, 1990
Claude Lemieux, 1995
Mike Vernon, 1997
Joe Nieuwendyk, 1999
Nicklas Lidstrom, 2002
Cam Ward, 2006
Scott Niedermayer, 2007
Jonathan Toews, 2010
Patrick Kane, 2013

Not too much to quibble with there. I'd move Stevens up for sure. One of the best playoff runs by a non-generational talent I'd say. Gretzky 1988 has to be in the top tier.

I'd swap Toews and Williams. Not a great finals for Toews, but dominant up until that point. Williams...well, lets just say I thought somebody was playing a joke on me when they said he won it. Kopitar or Doughty would be firmly in the third tier though if the voters weren't on bath salts, however.

On that note, somewhat of a shame what has been happening to the Smythe lately. Ward, Kane, and Williams were all downright terrible selections with multiple superior teammates that could and should have won, at least in my opinion. The Smythe was the one award the voters seldom screwed up...not the case anymore.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Best from the four-round era:

Wayne Gretzky, 1985
Mario Lemieux, 1991
Patrick Roy, 1993
Brian Leetch, 1994
J.S. Giguere, 2003

Tier 2:

Mike Bossy, 1982
Patrick Roy, 1986
Wayne Gretzky, 1988
Mario Lemieux, 1992
Joe Sakic, 1996
Patrick Roy, 2001
Evgeni Malkin, 2009
Tim Thomas, 2011
Jonathan Quick, 2012

Tier 3:

Bryan Trottier, 1980
Billy Smith, 1983
Mark Messier, 1984
Ron Hextall, 1987
Al MacInnis, 1989
Steve Yzerman, 1998
Scott Stevens, 2000
Brad Richards, 2004
Henrik Zetterberg, 2008
Justin Williams, 2014

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981
Bill Ranford, 1990
Claude Lemieux, 1995
Mike Vernon, 1997
Joe Nieuwendyk, 1999
Nicklas Lidstrom, 2002
Cam Ward, 2006
Scott Niedermayer, 2007
Jonathan Toews, 2010
Patrick Kane, 2013

is it just sour grapes that makes me think both leetch and thomas are both at least one tier too high?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

is it just sour grapes that makes me think both leetch and thomas are both at least one tier too high?

I think Leetch is probably the weakest link in Tier 1, but would be arguably the strongest in Tier 2 (other than '88 Gretzky, who should be Tier 1). Depends where you think the divide needs to be. Personally I'd probably have prime Gretzky/Lemieux and God-mode Roy in their own "Tier 0". It does look a little odd having Leetch and Giguere's names alongside those three.

I think Thomas depends on how heavily you weight performance in the final itself. If you give weight to all four rounds, he probably should drop to Tier 3. He stunk in several games leading up to the final. If you base it heavily on the final, he's probably appropriate in Tier 2.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Leetch is probably the weakest link in Tier 1, but would be arguably the strongest in Tier 2 (other than '88 Gretzky, who should be Tier 1). Depends where you think the divide needs to be. Personally I'd probably have prime Gretzky/Lemieux and God-mode Roy in their own "Tier 0". It does look a little odd having Leetch and Giguere's names alongside those three.

I think Thomas depends on how heavily you weight performance in the final itself. If you give weight to all four rounds, he probably should drop to Tier 3. He stunk in several games leading up to the final. If you base it heavily on the final, he's probably appropriate in Tier 2.

I agree with every word of this post. Tier 2 probably needs to be split with Leetch at least in the upper part of it, and Gretzky/Lemieux/Roy alone at top

Leetch was quite awesome in 1994 though - 34 points in 23 games, 1st on his team, all while playing on his team's top shutdown pair at even strength and top penalty killing unit.

 

[Barnum]

I think Thomas depends on how heavily you weight performance in the final itself. If you give weight to all four rounds, he probably should drop to Tier 3. He stunk in several games leading up to the final. If you base it heavily on the final, he's probably appropriate in Tier 2.

????

He had a .940 save % over 16 games with a 1.90 GAA. He had three questionable games against the Lightning but shut them out twice. Up and down series but the overall numbers don't lie, I believe those are playoff records I posted there.

 

[Big Phil]

The bolded don't seem THAT great to me.

As in -- we'd had to redefine the word "Exceptionnal" to make it fit. Great? Certainly.

The underlined... well, I might be showing my age, but I have troubles considering it "exceptionnal" if Al MacInnis (89) isn't.

I would put Parent's 1974 playoff among exceptional, personally.

I thought about MacInnis in 1989 more than anyone. What made me think here was whether he beats Orr in 1970 and 1972. Nope. How about Leetch in 1994? Sorry, Leetch had just a bit better of a run. That leaves Robinson and you have to remember there were just three rounds then for the Habs, not 4 which explains the 21 points. But he was also much more polished defensively and more physical than MacInnis in 1989.

I'll tell you what though, I would put MacInnis' 1989 year at the top of the tier 2 group though.

 

[Michael Farkas]

????

He had a .940 save % over 16 games with a 1.90 GAA. He had three questionable games against the Lightning but shut them out twice. Up and down series but the overall numbers don't lie, I believe those are playoff records I posted there.

The numbers actually do nothing but lie in this case...as averaging stats are prone to doing in a small sample size. Thomas' 2011 playoffs mirrored his career perfectly. Show-stopping saves and head-shaking goals against. Montreal got to him rather easily, right down to the fairly innocuous game 7 chance with about 2 and a half to go (IIRC) that dinged the post that nearly ended the whole thing right then and there...

Philadelphia was flat and he/Bruins D dominated them easily.

Tampa Bay he was, again, way up and down...the 40-footer along the ice, five hole goal to Vincent Lecavalier was just brutal...Tampa ran out of steam in game 7, but the only reason it got that far was because of Thomas' inconsistency...

Same thing to start off the Final. The Burrows goal from the left wing boards, diving out of the net on a routine play in OT...he singlehandedly lost game 1...put his team behind in a series for no reason at all...

He put so many games, hell, he put three series in serious doubt with just flub-tastic goals...if save pct. wasn't kept (and held to an unreasonably high value) and people had to watch the games in order to vote on them, he would have been considered a goat by many, in my opinion.

Great saves are terrific and all, but saves don't win games. Nothing affects a game like goals against...nothing brings a bench down like a bad goal against, especially in a big spot...it's deflating.

The Bruins had to have upped their scoring significantly in the playoffs (vs. the regular season) to account for his unreliable play...I don't know the numbers, but they must have scored damn near a goal per game more just to account for how poorly he played in many games in that playoffs...

Games aren't won on averages and ratios...on the ice, in the actual game, he was wild and generally unreliable...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think Thomas depends on how heavily you weight performance in the final itself. If you give weight to all four rounds, he probably should drop to Tier 3. He stunk in several games leading up to the final. If you base it heavily on the final, he's probably appropriate in Tier 2.

thomas's numbers, yes: historically good. and yeah of course thomas was excellent. but among the best of the best performances since 1980, feels pretty average to me. 2012 quick too, for what it's worth.

crapped the bed, then redeemed himself in round three; was average, then redeemed himself in round one. in both cases, he should have been playing at that level all along and never put himself in those holes if his run was really worthy of being ranked higher than, to take one example, 2000 scotty stevens, who was a straight up beast, leader, and steadying influence beginning to end.

as for the finals, i hesitate to give thomas too much credit for that. he was good; don't get me wrong. but was he as good as his numbers? i honestly think we don't know, because he didn't have to be. he played behind the best defensive center and the best defensive defenseman in the world, against a team whose top two centers and PMD all couldn't generate offense, at least partially due to debilitating injuries. almost every shot was an easy one from the outside; it was maddening to watch but troy gamble could have won that series for boston.

which is not to take anything away from thomas, who was just as good as he needed to be. but again, hard to give him credit among the greatest of the greatest of all time for doing shockingly little in those finals.

 

[Trottier]

Mario in the spring of '92 was a man among boys.

The gap between the world's greatest player at that time and mere mortals was huge. And he showed it on the world's largest stage.

Brian Leetch, with all due respect to another poster, had a postseason for the ages in '94.

Looking at that list of CS winners, reminds why I love the postseason, compared to the 82 game exhibition. It's when every player plays his best every shift, no exceptions....Which, in turn, is why the Conn Smyth typically goes to one of the league's best players (there are exceptions, of course; Justin Williams this spring being one of them).

When everyone is playing at their best, consistently, talent (not luck) ultimately wins out. As it should be.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

????

He had a .940 save % over 16 games with a 1.90 GAA. He had three questionable games against the Lightning but shut them out twice. Up and down series but the overall numbers don't lie, I believe those are playoff records I posted there.

Pretty tough to overlook 3 questionable games in a single series. Thomas shut out Tampa when the chips were down in Game 7, but with decent goaltending Boston would have been home and cooled in five games. That's on Thomas. Thomas was pretty shaky in the Montreal series as well.

thomas's numbers, yes: historically good. and yeah of course thomas was excellent. but among the best of the best performances since 1980, feels pretty average to me. 2012 quick too, for what it's worth.

crapped the bed, then redeemed himself in round three; was average, then redeemed himself in round one. in both cases, he should have been playing at that level all along and never put himself in those holes if his run was really worthy of being ranked higher than, to take one example, 2000 scotty stevens, who was a straight up beast, leader, and steadying influence beginning to end.

as for the finals, i hesitate to give thomas too much credit for that. he was good; don't get me wrong. but was he as good as his numbers? i honestly think we don't know, because he didn't have to be. he played behind the best defensive center and the best defensive defenseman in the world, against a team whose top two centers and PMD all couldn't generate offense, at least partially due to debilitating injuries. almost every shot was an easy one from the outside; it was maddening to watch but troy gamble could have won that series for boston.

which is not to take anything away from thomas, who was just as good as he needed to be. but again, hard to give him credit among the greatest of the greatest of all time for doing shockingly little in those finals.

Thomas blew Game 2 with that terrible OT goal. I guess I see it as he really only allowed five goals of consequence over the seven game series. Boston blitzed Vancouver in two of the wins and he really wasn't needed. The two 4-0 wins were in doubt for a time though and he made some big saves. But overall he definitely wasn't as amazing as the numbers suggest.

I'd put him Tier 3 from the list put together by quoipourquoi. I give pretty even weight to the four playoff rounds, so I can't overlook Thomas' struggles against Tampa and Montreal. But I will give him credit for never cracking with his back against the wall.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I'll tell you right now:

Considering what LA went through this postseason (which was a historic run that gets little mention) and how amazingly perfect he was, I would bump Williams to the 2nd tier.

Talk about a money player.

 

[Bennie]

Not every Conn Smythe winner is created equally. We know this. We've seen it. So since 1965 when the award was first given out, which ones do you rank as exceptional? In other words, there would be 4 groups: Exceptional, above average, average, and below the average. Just pick the exceptional ones that stood out. Which are they?

Exceptional:
Beliveau 1965 - 16 points in two rounds. 8 goals. Three game winners in the final
Orr 1970 - What can you say about it? Legendary
Orr 1972 - Was the difference in beating the Rangers. Tied Esposito in points
Parent 1974 - Silenced the Bruins
Parent 1975 - Second straight year he got a shutout in the clinching game
Lafleur 1977 - His best playoff, just utterly dominant
Robinson 1978 - Remember that end to end rush?
Gretzky 1985 - Statistically eye popping
Gretzky 1988 - More impressive than 1985, beat better teams
Lemieux 1991 - Played at a level only Gretzky had in postseason
Lemieux 1992 - 34 points in 15 games. Look closely, when he lifts the Cup he has a cast from the Graves slash
Roy 1993 - Probably had no business winning
Leetch 1994 - 34 points for a defenseman and still providing decent play in his own end
Sakic 1996 - 18 goals and it seemed like he scored all the time
Brad Richards 2004 - A record 7 game winners. He was such a force that year
Malkin 2009 - Stepped up, and had more points than anyone not named Coffey, Gretzky or Lemieux

Also have to add 86 Roy and 56 Beliveau If we consider retro smythes. I'm sure Richard would have one in there as well.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Best from the four-round era:

Wayne Gretzky, 1985
Mario Lemieux, 1991
Patrick Roy, 1993
Brian Leetch, 1994
J.S. Giguere, 2003

Tier 2:

Mike Bossy, 1982
Patrick Roy, 1986
Wayne Gretzky, 1988
Mario Lemieux, 1992
Joe Sakic, 1996
Patrick Roy, 2001
Evgeni Malkin, 2009
Tim Thomas, 2011
Jonathan Quick, 2012

Tier 3:

Bryan Trottier, 1980
Billy Smith, 1983
Mark Messier, 1984
Ron Hextall, 1987
Al MacInnis, 1989
Steve Yzerman, 1998
Scott Stevens, 2000
Brad Richards, 2004
Henrik Zetterberg, 2008
Justin Williams, 2014

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981
Bill Ranford, 1990
Claude Lemieux, 1995
Mike Vernon, 1997
Joe Nieuwendyk, 1999
Nicklas Lidstrom, 2002
Cam Ward, 2006
Scott Niedermayer, 2007
Jonathan Toews, 2010
Patrick Kane, 2013

I'd swap Thomas and Giguere for a few reasons.

1. While JS has slightly better numbers with .945/1.65 vs .940/1.98, Thomas faced 150 more shots 847 to 697.

2. Thomas has the slightly better GSAA, 20.72 vs 18.77

3. Thomas won and was much better in the Finals.

- 8 goals in 7 games, with a G7 road shut out.

- 18 goals in 7 games

4. Thomas faced better offenses.

Thomas faced 24, 3, 7, 1
Giguere faced 1, 6, 24, 14

 

[wetcoast]

I'll tell you right now:

Considering what LA went through this postseason (which was a historic run that gets little mention) and how amazingly perfect he was, I would bump Williams to the 2nd tier.

Talk about a money player.

IMO both Kopitar and Doughty were better and more important players for the Kings in the playoffs that year.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Brian Leetch, with all due respect to another poster, had a postseason for the ages in '94.
.

Can I just say - 'pointswise, you're right'...

Having watched him play in at least some of that mythical postseason in person, I can also say that he might have been the 5th or 6th most impactful player on the ice for at least what I saw of it. Just personal bias - there were lots of heroes to choose from during that run and as much as I hate all of them, Messier and Richter kinda towered over Leetch - at least for me...

 

[VanIslander]

Tier 4:

Butch Goring, 1981

No way. Goring was dominant.

If we were just looking at stats, Trottier would have won again as he scored in EVERY SINGLE GAME that postseason, setting the unbroken NHL record for consecutive games scored in at 18 for a season, 27 extending from the 1980 to 1982 playoffs.

Goalies or captains often get the Conn Smythe when no one stands out.

Trottier was screamingly good and yet Goring was the shutdown artist. After Gretzky lit it up with a hat trick hero win in the third game and first Oil home game, Butch stopped him from scoring any more that series. Then in the conference finals coach Arbour openly admitted to putting Butch on Ulf Nilsson (who had 8 goals in the opening rounds), and the Swede scored nothing against the Isles. Goring was the buzz odds on favorite heading into the finals. I was in junior high at the time and recall the chatter.

 

[daver]

Exceptional:
Beliveau 1965 - 16 points in two rounds. 8 goals. Three game winners in the final

Am I the only one who feels this is overrated?

He was outscored and outgoaled by Hull.

His three game winners in the SCF came in games where the Habs outscored the Hawks a total of 12 - 0.

There were three other scorers on the Habs in double digits in scoring (13, 11, 10).

The Hawks were the #3 team that year.

His GPG (min. of 8 games) was 27th best in the post WW 11 era to expansion, his PPG was 27th best.