What does Patrice Bergeron’s 5th Selke Trophy do for his all-time legacy?

[Habsfan18]

There are of course those who are going to say he won the award strictly based on reputation (I’m already reading a ton of that on social media), but the fact of the matter is this is now his record breaking 5th! Selke award.

Is it safe to say he should be viewed as the greatest defensive forward of all-time?

Frank Nighbor, Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau, Bobby Clarke, Jere Lehtinen, Pavel Datsyuk, Claude Provost, Craig Ramsay, Mike Peca etc..

Where do you rank Bergeron, and how much does a 5th Selke do for his all-time legacy? Surely he’ll be a 1st ballot HOFer.

Would there be any interest in a HoH All-time Defensive forward ranking project?

Click to read more...

 

[Sturminator]

Is it safe to say he should be viewed as the greatest defensive forward of all-time?

No, but he has forced his way into the conversation, at least.

 

[MadLuke]

There are of course those who are going to say he won the award strictly based on reputation

It is obviously an hyperbole (Bergeron would not have won would he had not play enough game for example or had a -12, did not play on a very good line/PK units), he had the reputation but also some of the best stats of the era:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

www.naturalstattrick.com

67% SF lead all skaters by a giant amount, 66% GF is excellent, 70% high danger scoring chance for, 62% faceoff wins, only 25 goals against at 5v5, 1.68 by 60 minutes.

The fact that reputation affect giving winning an award and that you need to build a consistent body of work for it, is really not the insult some many think it is. Yes it removes flash on a pan (would they really exist for an Selke) and it help to cummulate a large amount of wins for the very elite, but that was always true for the history of the award, not new.

 

[JackSlater]

It's certainly a nice bullet point for him, though I certainly don't think that it automatically means that Bergeron is the greatest defensive forward ever. I do think that the changing criteria for the award (informally) is an important point during any Selke discussion. In recent years I've seen voters explicitly say that they consider offence when it comes to the Selke, which is borne out in the results. At least Bergeron really is the best defensive forward among the two-way forwards who have won the award post-lockout.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bergeron certainly has an argument and probably is the best defensive forward post O6 era.

Career:

1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,4,5 Selke finishes
58.7% face off wins
59.1 CF
9.6 CFrel
0.9 CFrel shorthanded
59.3 FF
9.7 FFrel
1.1 FFrel shorthanded
2.5 GA/60
2.2 ESGA/60
2.0 5v5 GA/60

All while getting job of shutting down the top line night in and night out

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

He's still a first ballot hall of famer and should have his number retired by the B's for sure. But 5 Selke wins for Bergeron makes me think he won 3 too many Selkes instead of 2.

I think he should have been in the running for most of the previous decade but winning over Mikko Koivu and David Backes when they were up for it left me scratching my head.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There are of course those who are going to say he won the award strictly based on reputation (I’m already reading a ton of that on social media), but the fact of the matter is this is now his record breaking 5th! Selke award.

Is it safe to say he should be viewed as the greatest defensive forward of all-time?

Frank Nighbor, Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau, Bobby Clarke, Jere Lehtinen, Pavel Datsyuk, Claude Provost, Craig Ramsay, Mike Peca etc..

Where do you rank Bergeron, and how much does a 5th Selke do for his all-time legacy? Surely he’ll be a 1st ballot HOFer.

Would there be any interest in a HoH All-time Defensive forward ranking project?

I think he could be, yes.

But I didn't see Frank Nighbor.

 

[Staniowski]

Bergeron is great. He's so smart positionally and understands hockey very well....like Carbonneau. Very level-headed too. Bergeron is better with the puck than Carbonneau was.

 

[McGarnagle]

There are of course those who are going to say he won the award strictly based on reputation (I’m already reading a ton of that on social media), but the fact of the matter is this is now his record breaking 5th! Selke award.

Is it safe to say he should be viewed as the greatest defensive forward of all-time?

Frank Nighbor, Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau, Bobby Clarke, Jere Lehtinen, Pavel Datsyuk, Claude Provost, Craig Ramsay, Mike Peca etc..

Where do you rank Bergeron, and how much does a 5th Selke do for his all-time legacy? Surely he’ll be a 1st ballot HOFer.

Would there be any interest in a HoH All-time Defensive forward ranking project?

Which is an incredibly bad take on their part, because 1. All decent metrics showed him way ahead of the competition and 2. if anything the reputation effect is the opposite and has cost him a few Selkes he should've got because of voter fatigue.

Trying to claim best of all time is difficult when you're going across different eras where the game is played differently. I think he's the measuring stick all future players are going to compare their defensive games against going forward though.

 

[Big Phil]

I think it is hard to say this either way. Bergeron is more offensively talented than Gainey was, or Carbonneau. He's more like, say, Claude Provost, but better offensively. So I think Gainey focused more on the defense because he just wasn't as good offensively.

Thinking back, I can remember Bergeron being picked on the 2010 Olympic team. I liked him, but I wasn't sure why when there were some offensive guys like Stamkos and St. Louis and such who didn't make it. Yzerman explained that they wanted a guy with a right handed shot who could take important faceoffs. That made sense. The grinders/other defensive forwards like Morrow, Mike Richards, etc. were left handed shots. So it just goes to show you that Bergeron was highly thought of even then for his defense.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Would there be any interest in a HoH All-time Defensive forward ranking project?

That's basically an all-film project, as there are no public stats regarding defensive play.

And then there's the criteria...how good do you need to be at offense to be in the running for best defensive forward of all time? What happens if we evaluate the film and go, "ya know what, it's actually Nic Dowd...he's the best at it." How would we even get there? He's never gotten a Selke vote.

This is why I'm always against the "we need a Norris for defensive defensemen!" trope...oh yeah? Who is gonna do that? The media can't figure out the Conn Smythe half the time, a small subset of games that everyone is watching...they're gonna figure out a stat-less venture like that that could be any defenseman in the league?

I have to assume (and it's just an assumption) that I'm in the 99th percentile of people on the planet in terms of games watched per season...I don't know the answer to the Selke in any given season, much less all time. I certainly have a shortlist of players that I would consider...but who is the best defensive forward? I don't know...it's probably (hopefully?) one of these 27 guys that I have noticed are really good defensively haha...

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I think it is hard to say this either way. Bergeron is more offensively talented than Gainey was, or Carbonneau. He's more like, say, Claude Provost, but better offensively. So I think Gainey focused more on the defense because he just wasn't as good offensively.

Thinking back, I can remember Bergeron being picked on the 2010 Olympic team. I liked him, but I wasn't sure why when there were some offensive guys like Stamkos and St. Louis and such who didn't make it. Yzerman explained that they wanted a guy with a right handed shot who could take important faceoffs. That made sense. The grinders/other defensive forwards like Morrow, Mike Richards, etc. were left handed shots. So it just goes to show you that Bergeron was highly thought of even then for his defense.

I guess my question becomes at what point does being bad offensively creep into the defensive game?

We try to completely separate the phases, but in reality the fluidity of hockey doesn’t make it as black and white as a sport like football or baseball.

A player being great in the defensive zone at things like getting in lanes and blocking shots is wonderful and all, but if they’re so inept offensively and at moving the puck that they spend a ton of time in the defensive zone, then just how valuable is that truly?

Similarly, when a guy makes a poor decision with the puck or turns it over resulting in transition the other way that’s as much a defensive error as it is an offensive one in my mind.

Ultimately, I think looking at things like goals against, shots against, etc are a good place to start in looking at the big picture. And as we well know, just being great offensively doesn’t result in being good defensively or keeping the chances and goals against down either.

With Bergeron, him spending a lot of time in the offensive zone is a good thing. His ability to be hard and smart with the puck is a huge reason for that. But furthermore, he’s also easily one of the best players in the defensive zone. Is there another forward anyone picks the last 10 years if they’re defending a 1-goal lead with a minute to go and a defensive zone draw?

 

[WhalerTurnedBruin55]

He's still a first ballot hall of famer and should have his number retired by the B's for sure. But 5 Selke wins for Bergeron makes me think he won 3 too many Selkes instead of 2.

I think he should have been in the running for most of the previous decade but winning over Mikko Koivu and David Backes when they were up for it left me scratching my head.

I agree, but it goes both ways, there was years that Bergeron was arguably robbed of the trophy as well. It's all debatable, which is the interesting thing with the Selke.

Most players in the conversation are doing the right things. The rest is just subjective.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That's basically an all-film project, as there are no public stats regarding defensive play.

And then there's the criteria...how good do you need to be at offense to be in the running for best defensive forward of all time? What happens if we evaluate the film and go, "ya know what, it's actually Nic Dowd...he's the best at it." How would we even get there? He's never gotten a Selke vote.

This is why I'm always against the "we need a Norris for defensive defensemen!" trope...oh yeah? Who is gonna do that? The media can't figure out the Conn Smythe half the time, a small subset of games that everyone is watching...they're gonna figure out a stat-less venture like that that could be any defenseman in the league?

I have to assume (and it's just an assumption) that I'm in the 99th percentile of people on the planet in terms of games watched per season...I don't know the answer to the Selke in any given season, much less all time. I certainly have a shortlist of players that I would consider...but who is the best defensive forward? I don't know...it's probably (hopefully?) one of these 27 guys that I have noticed are really good defensively haha...

all of that is totally correct

but what if the project was… 40-60 defensive forwards we all agree we want to do deep dives on and share stories about? and maybe this is actually more interesting if we go beyond clarke, gainey, caronneau, bergeron.

like, deemphasize the ranky and definitiveness and objectivity aspects and get to the real reason why any of us are here

i would love to hear stories about don marcotte or gaetan duchesne. i want to hear macho king’s account of watching ondrej palat game in, game out. and i will tell you all so much about alex burrows.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sounds like a scouting/coaching clinic...

One idea to help that along, possibly, is some film work on guys that we know are great in this area - let's say Bergeron and for d-men, Lidstrom - that way there's a base line on what to look for...

Just spitballing, but this is way different than looking for dynamic skill in my opinion...

 

[Voight]

Bergeron certainly has an argument and probably is the best defensive forward post O6 era.

Career:

1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,4,5 Selke finishes
58.7% face off wins
59.1 CF
9.6 CFrel
0.9 CFrel shorthanded
59.3 FF
9.7 FFrel
1.1 FFrel shorthanded
2.5 GA/60
2.2 ESGA/60
2.0 5v5 GA/60

All while getting job of shutting down the top line night in and night out

Does Bob Gainey not exist?

 

[Video Nasty]

A player doesn’t finish a Selke winner or finalist for 11 consecutive years (top 5 13 years in a row) in a 30-32 team league without being on a very small list of all time great defensive forwards, no matter how much some think reputation plays a role with this particular trophy.

I think inside the top 5 is more than fair and maybe even at least #3. His longevity is nuts.

 

[sr edler]

He was great at cheating at face-offs, I'm glad Trotz called him out on it.

 

[Rengorlex]

To put my evaluation of Bergeron into perspective, if I had to choose between building a contender around Malkin or Bergeron, I would choose Bergeron.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think it helps his legacy tremendously.

How many 2022 hockey fans do you think would know the first thing about Bob Gainey if not for his Selkes? Is Guy Carbonneau in the HHOF right now if not for the validation of winning 3 Selkes? Think about how often you've heard the names Peca and Lehtinen in the past 5 years... now how often do you think you'd have heard those names if they weren't multi-Selke winners?

This may not have an immediate impact on his reputation because everyone witnessing it has seen Bergeron's career and has an opinion on him already. But fast-forward to 30 years from now when the bulk of hockey fans will have no functional memory of him, and only know him as "the guy who won the most awards for best defensive forward". You better believe his long-term legacy will be based on that, and probably moreso than on anything else.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I would think it bumps him up 5 or 6 spots, the same as if he had won a similar major award (eg. Rocket Richard).