What does Kucherov need to do to surpass Ovechkin and become the greatest Russian player to ever play in the NHL?

[ViD]

Kucherov has two best seasons by a Russian player

He’s truly only behind Ovie who will likely break the goal record and become the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league .

Funny enough, Ovechkin doesn’t hold the record for goals per season by a Russian player, Mogilny does

 

[Bank Shot]

Kucherov has two best seasons by a Russian player

He’s truly only behind Ovie who will likely break the goal record and become the greatest goal scorer in the history of the league .

Funny enough, Ovechkin doesn’t hold the record for goals per season by a Russian player, Mogilny does

I would put Ovechkin's 07/08 season above any regular season of Kucherov's.

Yeah, Kucherov's totals are higher, but Ovechin's peak was in a lower scoring era.

 

[Lemieuxs]

Assuming Kucherov wins the Art-Ross/Hart/Lindsey this season (most deserving anyways), what else would he need to add to his resume to be able to catch OV and become the greatest Russian player to play in the league?

His playoff resume is already above OV's and you could now argue that his peak also is.

He would have to first pass Malkin.

 

[TheFinalWord]

If Kucherov has a few more seasons like this past one, it will be hard not to say he was better. Peak Ovi, the young Ovi that could really wheel and score off the rush, was a different beast. Unfortunately, that version only played a few years. But that Ovi was amazing.

 

[AndreRoy]

Yes, Kucherov has done something that only 4 (or 5) other players have ever done, in reach 100 assists in a season, a list that does includes Gretzky, but that's the only time he will ever be mentioned in the same sentence as some of the greats. Unlike Ovechkin who because of both goals and points, will end up being one of the top 10 players of all time.

False. He’s alone with Gretzky and Lemieux as the only players with 40 goals and 100 assists in a season (a subset of the aforementioned group that excludes Orr and McDavid) AND he’s alone with them as the only players ever to score 30+ points in back-to-back postseasons. There are several other records as well that have Kucherov in a small group of players including Wayne, Mario, and maybe one or two others, but these are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Nobody’s arguing that Ovi isn’t one of the all-time greats, but Kucherov is as well (especially when postseason performance is taken into account); to deny that is every bit as absurd as denying Ovechkin’s accomplishments.

 

[wetcoast]

I think it's become easy to forget just how dynamic a young Ovi was

True enough but it seems lots of people forget different things and lack consistency in their ranking process or single out a single metric and then Trump that as way more important than anything else which seems dubious to say the least.

 

[AndreRoy]

Along with that, what exactly has he done to separate himself from any of the other top players to play the game. How is he any different from other players? Did he change the way the game way played? Was there something that he did that no other player did on the ice? What made him so special?

Kucherov will go down as a top-two player of his generation (just as Ovi was), the greatest playoff performer of his generation and one of the best ever (something Ovi obviously wasn’t), and the greatest playmaking wing of all time. He will also be remembered for excelling through hockey IQ to a greater extent than anyone since Gretzky. Those are the things that make him special.

And one could easily ask those same questions about Ovechkin. Of course he will be remembered as one of the all-time great goal scorers, and may indeed break Gretzky’s record which is certainly a very special accomplishment indeed. But it wasn’t because he was the best shooter of his generation (Stamkos beats him by a large margin there.) Nor did all those goals translate into much postseason success (he won’t be remembered as a winner in comparison with the other elite players of his time.)

Ultimately Ovi was an excellent but not league-best shooter who also shot in large volumes over a career in which he had the good fortune to remain healthy. That doesn’t mean his accomplishment should be diminished, but it also doesn’t mean that he somehow changed the way the game is played - a standard which is apparently applied only to Kucherov in this discussion. Nor does it mean that Kuch at his best wasn’t a better player than Ovechkin at his best.

 

[GoldenKnight]

peak Malkin went up against peak Ovechkin for two years (08 and 09).

Ovie got like 240-some first place Hart votes to Malkin's 15 or so.

The players had Ovie ahead as well.

Malkin was not at his peak in 2008 yet.

Malkin's peak season is 2012. 2009 can be argued as part of his peak as well, and he was even with Ovechkin that year.

Malkin's 2012 season is better than any year by Ovechkin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Malkin's peak season is 2012. 2009 can be argued as part of his peak as well, and he was even with Ovechkin that year.

First place Hart votes in 2009:

Ovechkin: 115
Malkin: 12

Gee that doesn't seem especially even. Who won the Pearson?

And that was like Ovechkin's 2nd or 3rd best season.

 

[cvaicunas]

True enough but it seems lots of people forget different things and lack consistency in their ranking process or single out a single metric and then Trump that as way more important than anything else which seems dubious to say the least.

Yea no doubt. I honestly don't even try to quantify player rankings such as this. I'm no pro scout, and really, trying to quantify different eras, positions, roles just ends up in a back and forth conversation. Fun for many, but really where does it eventually bring you.

 

[GoldenKnight]

And that was like Ovechkin's 2nd or 3rd best season.

None of which are on the level of Malkin's 2011-12 peak season.

 

[wetcoast]

First place Hart votes in 2009:

Ovechkin: 115
Malkin: 12

Gee that doesn't seem especially even. Who won the Pearson?

And that was like Ovechkin's 2nd or 3rd best season.

Hart voters were obviously biased with Ovechkins "Canadian" style of play and were obviously biased against the soft doesn't hit much Russian eh?

 

[Midnight Judges]

None of which are on the level of Malkin's 2011-12 peak season.

IMO Ovechkin's 65 goal/112 point season is very clearly superior to Malkin's 50 goal/109 point season.

Ovechkin's 3rd best season was 50 goals and 109 points in 72 games - also superior to Malkin's 2012.

Hart voters were obviously biased with Ovechkins "Canadian" style of play and were obviously biased against the soft doesn't hit much Russian eh?

It is bizarre that anyone thinks there is a nationalist-based style of play in the international modern era. Back in the Soviet isolation era, maybe that made some sense.

One would have to really want to discriminate based on nationality to see something like that at this point.

 

[GoldenKnight]

IMO Ovechkin's 65 goal/112 point season is very clearly superior to Malkin's 50 goal/109 point season.

Did you purposely leave off the fact that Malkin played 75 games, while Ovechkin played 82 games?

Malkin's 2011-12 season prorated to 82 games and adjusted to the 2007-08 slightly higher scoring environment gives Malkin 122 points to Ovechkin's 112.

That is a 10 point gap in Malkin's favor in terms of offensive production.

Ovechkin was also worse defensively, particularly at their peaks. Ovechkin had a terrific season, but Malkin had an even better year.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Did you purposely leave off the fact that Malkin played 75 games, while Ovechkin played 82 games?

Malkin's 2011-12 season prorated to 82 games and adjusted to the 2007-08 slightly higher scoring environment gives Malkin 122 points to Ovechkin's 112.

That is a 10 point gap in Malkin's favor in terms of offensive production.

Ovechkin was also worse defensively, particularly at their peaks. Ovechkin had a terrific season, but Malkin had an even better year.

There is no benefit to playing fewer games. In fact it's undesirable - a drawback even if they score zero points in those games. Players of this caliber are far more valuable even as no-point decoys than they are missing games. Prorating (pretending) - as you have done here - makes no sense at all.

Ovechkin achieved 112 points and 50 goals in 72 games in 2010 (superior PPG and GPG to Malkin's 2012). It's still inferior to Ovechkin's 65 goal season IMO because actual points and goals are useful whereas 'what you think would have happened' doesn't actually help their teams. But by your logic - where MISSING games is somehow desirable (scratches head) - Ovechkin's 2010 season comes out on top.

As for who was better defensively, you seem to have simply assumed it without even glancing at any data. In real life Ovechkin 2008 and Malkin 2012 were on the ice for the exact same 66 non-PP goals against. Except, like you said, Ovechkin played 82 games whereas Malkin played only 75, so Ovechkin was surrendering fewer goals against per game and sustained that superior defense for more games - all while playing in front of a shit defense with shit goaltending. Malkin was playing with a decent defense (Letang, Niskanen, Orpik) and a HoF goaltender. Malkin's offensive zone start percentage was 75% vs 71% for Ovie. Neither player killed penalties.

So where is your evidence?

And Ovechkin in 2010 was on the ice for a paltry Bergeron-like 45 goals against (for reference, that number was 93 for Sidney Crosby this season).

 

[TheGoldenJet]

There is no benefit to playing fewer games. In fact it's undesirable - a drawback even if they score zero points in those games. Players of this caliber are far more valuable even as no-point decoys than they are missing games. Prorating (pretending) - as you have done here - makes no sense at all.

Ovechkin achieved 112 points and 50 goals in 72 games in 2010 (superior PPG and GPG to Malkin's 2012). It's still inferior to Ovechkin's 65 goal season IMO because actual points and goals are useful whereas 'what you think would have happened' doesn't actually help their teams. But by your logic - where MISSING games is somehow desirable (scratches head) - Ovechkin's 2010 season comes out on top.

As for who was better defensively, you seem to have simply assumed it without even glancing at any data. In real life Ovechkin 2008 and Malkin 2012 were on the ice for the exact same 66 non-PP goals against. Except, like you said, Ovechkin played 82 games whereas Malkin played only 75, so Ovechkin was surrendering fewer goals against per game and sustained that superior defense for more games - all while playing in front of a shit defense with shit goaltending. Malkin was playing with a decent defense (Letang, Niskanen, Orpik) and a HoF goaltender. Malkin's offensive zone start percentage was 75% vs 71% for Ovie. Neither player killed penalties.

So where is your evidence?

And Ovechkin in 2010 was on the ice for a paltry Bergeron-like 45 goals against (for reference, that number was 93 for Sidney Crosby this season).

Your post is hilarious.

Malkin at his peak was a lot better defensively than Mr. Controller Disconnected. Did you know Malkin led the entire NHL in takeaways the same year peak Ovechkin led the league in giveaways?

Malkin’s 2011-12 season was better than any of Ovechkin’s seasons. You can save the “more valuable” arguments about missing a handful of games for a Hart trophy discussion thread, it has no bearing on who proved to be better in their respective seasons, which was Malkin in 2012.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Your post is hilarious.

Malkin at his peak was a lot better defensively than Mr. Controller Disconnected. Did you know Malkin led the entire NHL in takeaways the same year peak Ovechkin led the league in giveaways?

Malkin’s 2011-12 season was better than any of Ovechkin’s seasons. You can save the “more valuable” arguments about missing a handful of games for a Hart trophy discussion thread, it has no bearing on who proved to be better in their respective seasons, which was Malkin in 2012.

Your logic was that Malkin had a higher PPG so he was better in 2012 than Ovechkin was in 2008.

However, Ovechkin's 2010 season was better than Malkin's 2012 season by virtue of PPG (1.51 for Ovechkin, 1.45 for Malkin) - which was YOUR PRIMARY METRIC.

Then you went to defense, except Ovechkin's defensive outcome in 2008 is superior to Malkin's in 2012 in terms of on-ice goals against per game. Of course, you don't even want to address Ovechkin's 2010 season where he was on the ice for barely any goals against (45 to Malkin's 66). I really would love to hear the argument about how Malkin was better defensively while surrendering 47% more goals against.

I'm not going to hold my breath for that one.

So now your new argument is that Malkin had more take-aways in 2009 (when he got curb stomped by Ovie for the Hart) therefore....Malkin's 2012 season was better defensively?!? Except you neglect to mention that Malkin's take-aways in 2012 were way down (to 52 from 94) - which is actually LESS than Ovechkin in 2008 (68) or Ovechkin in 2010 (66).

You are all over the place man.

BTW, the practical impacts of take-aways and give-aways are already contained in goals for and goals against - which indisputably favor Ovechkin.

I think you just want to say Malkin and you're willing to reach for anything to get there. Not sure why that's what you desire to do, but you've made it pretty clear.

 

[archangel2]

Ovi has 853 goals in the nhl. Kucherov has 873 in pts he has A LONG WAY TO GO

 

[NoName]

Ovechkin is a legend, one of the all time greats. He is pretty definitely the best Russian NHLer (not sure how we would rate those Cold War era Red Army guys). Kucherov is excellent, but he has a long way to go before he matches OV in terms of his resume and his impact on hockey.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Ovi has 853 goals in the nhl. Kucherov has 873 in pts he has A LONG WAY TO GO

This guy gets it. Kucherov needs another kucherov’s worth of career to catch OV in points, and another Frank Mahlovich’s worth of career to catch him in goals.

I keep saying this, because it bears repeating: OV has an entire hall of fame career’s worth of production difference (in his favor) versus Kucherov. Kucherov is not even sniffing around the foothills of
Mount ovechkin at this point.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Your logic was that Malkin had a higher PPG so he was better in 2012 than Ovechkin was in 2008.

However, Ovechkin's 2010 season was better than Malkin's 2012 season by virtue of PPG (1.51 for Ovechkin, 1.45 for Malkin) - which was YOUR PRIMARY METRIC.

Then you went to defense, except Ovechkin's defensive outcome in 2008 is superior to Malkin's in 2012 in terms of on-ice goals against per game. Of course, you don't even want to address Ovechkin's 2010 season where he was on the ice for barely any goals against (45 to Malkin's 66). I really would love to hear the argument about how Malkin was better defensively while surrendering 47% more goals against.

I'm not going to hold my breath for that one.

So now your new argument is that Malkin had more take-aways in 2009 (when he got curb stomped by Ovie for the Hart) therefore....Malkin's 2012 season was better defensively?!? Except you neglect to mention that Malkin's take-aways in 2012 were way down (to 52 from 94) - which is actually LESS than Ovechkin in 2008 (68) or Ovechkin in 2010 (66).

You are all over the place man.

BTW, the practical impacts of take-aways and give-aways are already contained in goals for and goals against - which indisputably favor Ovechkin.

I think you just want to say Malkin and you're willing to reach for anything to get there. Not sure why that's what you desire to do, but you've made it pretty clear.

“Defensive outcome” nice try pal, but that’s not how you measure an individual’s defense. You will need to show your work better than that and find some actual advanced stats. They might be tough to find for seasons that happened more than 10 years ago.

Anyone with a pair of eyes knows that Ovechkin in his peak years was a floater who didn’t pay much attention to his own end of the ice.

That is why Russia’s coach used Malkin to shadow Crosby (Canada’s top forward at the time) while Ovechkin was never given such an assignment at the international level. This usage while both were in their 20’s on the same team ultimately speaks volumes about how trusted each guy was defensively.

And again, you ignore the fact that 2011-12 was a very low scoring season. It’s why Malkin’s 109 points ranked him first in the NHL by a big margin, while Ovechkin’s 109 points two years earlier had him in in a two-way tie for second place.

If we extrapolate both players (Malkin 2012 and Ovechkin 2010) to 82 games and adjust Malkin’s scoring to the higher 2009-10 level, both players score 124 points in 82 games.

Malkin however has the clear edge because A) he played more games so his sample size is more significant (a point you keep harping on), and B) Malkin missed his games due to injury (and therefore missed shifts and periods of games were cut short for him, resulting in about one shift less per game total TOI than Ovechkin), while Ovechkin simply rested while healthy (missing games due to suspension), thereby allowing him to artificially inflate his points per game average. So advantage to Malkin, and that is without even considering Malkin’s superior defensive play.

 

[wetcoast]

IMO Ovechkin's 65 goal/112 point season is very clearly superior to Malkin's 50 goal/109 point season.

Ovechkin's 3rd best season was 50 goals and 109 points in 72 games - also superior to Malkin's 2012.



It is bizarre that anyone thinks there is a nationalist-based style of play in the international modern era. Back in the Soviet isolation era, maybe that made some sense.

One would have to really want to discriminate based on nationality to see something like that at this point.

Oh the irony and it went completely over your head.......

 

[Midnight Judges]

Anyone with a pair of eyes knows that Ovechkin in his peak years was a floater who didn’t pay much attention to his own end of the ice.

That is utterly false. Ovechkin in his peak years was a possession monster as well as a physical monster. You don't end up top 4 in the NHL in hits by never playing any defense.

Oh the irony and it went completely over your head.......

I understand the joke you were trying to make...as well as its nativist foundation.

And again, you ignore the fact that 2011-12 was a very low scoring season. It’s why Malkin’s 109 points ranked him first in the NHL by a big margin, while Ovechkin’s 109 points two years earlier had him in in a two-way tie for second place.

Then Malkin's defensive outcomes are even worse than I stated.

 

[wetcoast]

That is utterly false. Ovechkin in his peak years was a possession monster as well as a physical monster. You don't end up top 4 in the NHL in hits by never playing any defense.



I understand the joke you were trying to make...as well as its nativist foundation.

Well one would think so since the Canadian media trope is one of your favorite distractions.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

That is utterly false. Ovechkin in his peak years was a possession monster as well as a physical monster. You don't end up top 4 in the NHL in hits by never playing any defense.



I understand the joke you were trying to make...as well as its nativist foundation.



Then Malkin's defensive outcomes are even worse than I stated.