What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[Matsun]

Draisaitl has 46 points in his last 22 playoff games and currently has the 2nd highest playoff PPG ever over Mario. He is also extremally durable unlike Malkin and Forsberg and has more top 5 scoring finishes than either of them. He also has more top 5 finishes than Trottier. Trottier has huge playoffs but Draisaitl is really strong there too. This has got me thinking about Draisaitl's chances of going down as the best number 2 ever.

I think the greatest ever number 2 would be Esposito. Esposito has cups, Harts and Scoring titles while being the clear number 2 to Orr in our eyes. What would it take for Draisaitl to pass him? Esposito has an advantage in that his generational talent was a defenseman which gave Esposito more of a chance for Harts and scoring titles. Draisaitl always being the second best forward on his own team makes it more or less impossible to win individual trophies since he won't lead his team in points. Draisaitl would probably need a dominant goalscoring year while being close in points to win another Hart unless McDavid misses time, but I can see Draisaitl win Conn Smyths if the team wins a cup.

If we would not consider Esposito because he is number 2 to a defenseman I think the best number 2 might be Mikita to Hull. Mikita won 4 Art Rosses, 1 Cup and 2 Harts in the 60s while leading the decade in points yet no one thought he was the best player of the decade, the consensus was that his teammate Hull was the man. Mikita did outperform Hull in regular season more than Draisaitl will outperform McDavid, but Mikita is not as strong in the playoffs as Draisaitl.

Do you think Draisaitl can go down as the best ever number 2?

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[daver]

It depends on how much you think he was affected by #1.

Is Drai the somewhat clear #2 in the league since 16/17 based on his regular season resume in comparison to Kucherov and MacKinnon and a propensity to turn it up in the playoffs?

Or does his significantly high point shares with McDavid since 16/17 indicate he numbers are a bit inflated? Mikita and Malkin showed that their production was much more "independently" earned.

If he keeps doing what he is doing and leads the Oilers to the Cup, then he certainly can be viewed as an all-time great playoff warrior, which, if anything, brings McDavid down a peg from his lofty regular season standing,

Like Esposito, it isn't cut and dried as to how to value their production as other being heavily influenced or not influenced at all by the #1 on the team.

I think the connection with McDavid keeps him behind a peer who has a similar resume. Durability can move him ahead of a player like Malkin but he will not reach the Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic level.

 

[JackSlater]

That's a very high bar to clear, arguably top 20 of all time given guys like Mikita or Messier (if he fits the premise). So... he'll need to be one of the best players ever I guess. In order to get recognition he will need more success away from McDavid, either while on the same team (Mikita) or on a different team (Messier).

 

[daver]

That's a very high bar to clear, arguably top 20 of all time given guys like Mikita or Messier (if he fits the premise). So... he'll need to be one of the best players ever I guess. In order to get recognition he will need more success away from McDavid, either while on the same team (Mikita) or on a different team (Messier).

This is a good point but there are some differences.

Mikita was notably lacking, save for one great year, in comparison to Hull in the playoffs.

Messier was never "better" than Wayne, or close to it, while Drai has arguably been better than McDavid in the playoffs in his career, and could possibly lead the Oilers to a Cup while clearly being better than McDavid.

Of course, like Malkin, it can be argued that the mere presence of a GOAT on your team opens up opportunities to face the other team's #2 dmen and forward lines.

 

[Drytoast]

Probably move out of Edmonton and get traded to an East coast team. And you can call that a troll comment but I think it's founded by the reality that East coast teams (specifically the original 6) get the most attention. And with attention comes fame and notoriety.

 

[JackSlater]

This is a good point but there are some differences.

Mikita was notably lacking, save for one great year, in comparison to Hull in the playoffs.

Messier was never "better" than Wayne, or close to it, while Drai has arguably been better than McDavid in the playoffs in his career, and could possibly lead the Oilers to a Cup while clearly being better than McDavid.

Of course, like Malkin, it can be argued that the mere presence of a GOAT on your team opens up opportunities to face the other team's #2 dmen and forward lines.

I don't know, it seems way too early to make any conclusions regarding McDavid and the playoffs. Edmonton has two playoffs runs since he came into the league, one where Draisaitl was much better and one where McDavid was much better despite the point totals being similar. Mikita and Hull seem a lot closer on paper, regardless of playoffs, but their reputations generally had Hull clearly ahead for most people.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Depending on how you define number 2 that would be tough.

Esposito could be considered Boston's number 2 in the 70s, and I don't think Draisaitl can reach him.

If we stick to modern times then I assume Malkin is the current mark?

 

[daver]

I don't know, it seems way too early to make any conclusions regarding McDavid and the playoffs. Edmonton has two playoffs runs since he came into the league, one where Draisaitl was much better and one where McDavid was much better despite the point totals being similar. Mikita and Hull seem a lot closer on paper, regardless of playoffs, but their reputations generally had Hull clearly ahead for most people.

This thread is premature to say the least. Assuming Drai has a Cup winning playoff run where he was better than McDavid (which is not out of the realm of possibility), it reduces the #1 affect that is reasonably applied in the regular season.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Just in the playoffs he's got a lot of ground to cover to catch Esposito.

From 69 to 73:

33-46-79 in 46 games
3x led the playoffs in points
3x led the playoffs in goals
2x led the playoffs in assists

1969: 8-10-18 in 10 games, leading the league in all 3 categories without getting past the Conference Finals
1970: 13-14-27 in 14 games, leading the league in all 3 categories and winning the Cup
1971: 3-7-10 in 7 games on the wrong side of the upset
1971: 9-15-24 in 15 games, leading in points and goals and winning the Cup

 

[WarriorofTime]

Be better than Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Mark Messier, Jaromir Jagr, Evgeni Malkin. High bar. All legends in their own right. But he certainly looks to be that level of guy for his generation.

 

[Matsun]

Depending on how you define number 2 that would be tough.

Esposito could be considered Boston's number 2 in the 70s, and I don't think Draisaitl can reach him.

If we stick to modern times then I assume Malkin is the current mark?

It's a bit arbitrary how to define a number 2. My way of looking at it is like this: You are a number 2 as long as you are the number 2 on the team. I would stop seeing Draisaitl as a number 2 if McDavid or him left. I only considered Messier in the seasons when Wayne was there because Messier was clearly the number 1 after that. Though maybe Messier wasn't even the number 2 to Wayne? That one is tricky. He had 2 top 5 scoring finishes and a Smythe behind Wayne so I'm not sure he is in the running for best number 2 ever anyway.

When the number 1 is injured I still think you are still a number 2. I consider Malkin 11-12 to be a number 2 that stepped up in the absence of the number 1, just like the best number 2s does. Hope that makes sense lol.

 

[Albatros]

Who knows what will still happen over the next ten or so years. McDavid decides to walk and the Oilers somehow manage to win a cup with Draisaitl wearing the C? At that point albeit belatedly he'd cement himself as the #1 of his era in Edmonton.

 

[JackSlater]

Be better than Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Mark Messier, Jaromir Jagr, Evgeni Malkin. High bar. All legends in their own right. But he certainly looks to be that level of guy for his generation.

It's not important to the thread really but I've never considered Jagr in that way. Maybe because he wasn't the Pittsburgh's clear #2 player when the team was winning championships, but that is also true for Messier. I don't have a real explanation.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's not important to the thread really but I've never considered Jagr in that way. Maybe because he wasn't the Pittsburgh's clear #2 player when the team was winning championships, but that is also true for Messier. I don't have a real explanation.

He was just a young guy those particular years but the immediately following ones, Jagr was a total monster while Lemieux was still Lemieux as long as he was out there.

 

[MadLuke]

If he goes down as a clear cut number 2 it could help against the Jagr (that went to be a number 1 for more games I feel like and early Jagr was not really the number of over the Stevens-Francis and co., even if he was in reality earlier than in our perception).


That quite the scoring in the last 4 or so season (18-19)

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Connor McDavid	L	C	360​	216​	378​	594​
Leon Draisaitl	L	C	369​	231​	306​	537​
Nathan MacKinnon	R	C	335​	170​	286​	456​
Artemi Panarin	R	L	347​	128​	300​	428​
Mitchell Marner	R	R	348​	127​	297​	424​

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	+/-	PIM	P/GP
Leon Draisaitl	L	C	28​	17​	35​	52​	7​	14​	1.86​
Connor McDavid	L	C	28​	18​	34​	52​	14​	12​	1.86​
Tyler Bertuzzi	L	L	4​	2​	4​	6​	2​	26​	1.5​
Dustin Byfuglien	R	D	6​	2​	6​	8​	4​	4​	1.33​
Nathan MacKinnon	R	C	60​	38​	42​	80​	29​	28​	1.33​

 

[jigglysquishy]

Are we limiting it to forward/forward?

If not, Beliveau/Harvey or Lidstrom/Yzerman enter the mix. Harvey and Beliveau are both in my top 10. That's probably the hardest mountain to climb.

 

[MadLuke]

Was there a lot of time where Lidstrom was a clear number 2 to Yzerman or Yzerman that good for enough time while being a clear number 2 to Lidstrom, many of the competition will be fuzzier than the Hart-Art Ross winner just one year older than the best player of its generation on the same team.

Are we limiting it to forward/forward?

Esposito/Orr was mentioned, will wait to see if we will try goaltender in there. I am not sure if there will be a clear case.

 

[solidmotion]

draisaitl's already got 5 years scoring at a 50 goal/120 point rate. clearly a playoff performer as well. and with that core—the best powerplay ever?—locked up for a few more years he's in a good place to put up some more big numbers. ultimately it'll come down to winning cups but it's an impressive resume already and a bright future. could easily see him comparing well with mikita or malkin at least.

 

[Matsun]

Jagr has a weird case. He becomes the number 2 in 93-94 when he leads the Pens in points with Mario misses 60 games. He stops being the number 2 when Mario retires after 96-97 so I think he had 4 seasons as the Number 2. That is unless you consider him a number 1 in his Art Ross campaign in the shortened season. I think for consistency I would have to say he was still a number 2 that season even though he was basically been the main guy for 2 seasons. Lemieux wasn't retiered so Jagr was still filling in temporarily.

 

[Crosby2010]

I think that is a pretty high bar to clear. Draisaitl has been great, but the Oilers aren't even guaranteed to be winners of the 1st round this year, and almost went down 3-1 as recently as last night. I would stop short of handing him the Conn Smythe trophy.

But either way he won't surpass a guy like Messier. Hard to imagine him doing it to Trottier as well. Mikita, Esposito, etc. That will be a big hill to climb. His career is maybe half over, so we have more to be written from him. Malkin to this day is still good and keeps adding to his resume and just missed the postseason for the first time in his career. So if you want to include Malkin as the current best #2 than I think there is more work to be done for Drais to get there because Malkin had 3-4 really good runs and three that ended up in a Cup win, one with a Conn Smythe. Draisaitl is still a country mile away from that sort of thing.

 

[The Panther]

He's a great player, that's for sure.

Here's a stat: In this year's playoffs so far, when Draisaitl is on the ice, the Oilers have outscored Los Angeles 14-4. When Draisaitl is not on the ice, Los Angeles has outscored Edmonton 9-0.

 

[seventieslord]

Draisaitl kills penalties very infrequently, and plays scads of minutes on the PP. so stats like the above are exactly what you would expect to see over a short sample. If he just performs at even strength, then the special teams numbers will juice those totals and then sure, if you ignore situational numbers, you can make him look like the greatest player ever.

(I know he's an outstanding player of course, but I can't remember the last time Panther posted GF or GA data without accounting for manpower situations, and of course it's always where doing so would weaken his point)

 

[Neutrinos]

Jagr gets my vote as the best #2

 

[Salsa Shark]

Ted Lindsay? 4 cups and a bunch of all-star teams. Surprised I'm first to bring him up

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ted Lindsay? 4 cups and a bunch of all-star teams. Surprised I'm first to bring him up

Lindsay is a little overrated, for starters. Two, if this is about the second best player on the team, it's Red Kelly, right?