What Crosby has to do to be the consensus #5 Official All Time player?

[bobholly39]

I'm really excited for this season. Hope crosby adds some hardware.

Also hope he can add another top 10 goals finish.

So far he has 1, 7, 7 a couple more and it will balance out his finishes IMO

I always felt Crosby has it in him to score more goals and challenge for the Rocket

I don't really want to undermine Ovechkin's dominance in that department by suggesting that Crosby could challenge him if he wanted to....but maybe? It probably takes more than Crosby simply deciding he "wants to" if we're being literal, but I still think that Crosby is capable of scoring more goals, as he has in the past.

I think a good season by Crosby sees him scoring a minimum of 40+ goals. In today's NHL that should be good enough for top 5, if not better.

I think in this thread i've been all about Crosby adding awards or honors that are unexpected in terms of biggest potential impact to his resume. In that sense, I think if he wins a Rocket it would be a big boost for him.

 

[daver]

I always felt Crosby has it in him to score more goals and challenge for the Rocket

I don't really want to undermine Ovechkin's dominance in that department by suggesting that Crosby could challenge him if he wanted to....but maybe? It probably takes more than Crosby simply deciding he "wants to" if we're being literal, but I still think that Crosby is capable of scoring more goals, as he has in the past.

I think a good season by Crosby sees him scoring a minimum of 40+ goals. In today's NHL that should be good enough for top 5, if not better.

I think in this thread i've been all about Crosby adding awards or honors that are unexpected in terms of biggest potential impact to his resume. In that sense, I think if he wins a Rocket it would be a big boost for him.

He has already established himself as a Top 3-5 goalscorer of his era so it really is not a weak part of his resume. If Crosby gets to a point where he is being considered for the #5 position, IMO, whether he closes the goals gap between him and OV will be somewhat irrelevant; he likely will already have left OV far behind.

 

[Plural]

He has already established himself as a Top 3-5 goalscorer of his era so it really is not a weak part of his resume. If Crosby gets to a point where he is being considered for the #5 position, IMO, whether he closes the goals gap between him and OV will be somewhat irrelevant; he likely will already have left OV far behind.

That's based only on per-game basis over Crosby's career. Now, I'm not saying he's not great goal-scorer and in a vacuum he might even be somewhere in the top-5 from the start of his career. But a player who has one top-5 finish and two top-5 per game seasons in his career can't by default be the 3rd-5th best goal-scorer of his era.

Crosby is 3rd in GPG among active players. Only behind Stammer and Ovechkin. But I'm having hard time slotting him as the 3rd best goal-scorer of this era.

Stamkos, Ovechkin and Kovy are ahead. I don't think that's even debatable.

Sidney Crosby. 3 top-10 finishes and 3 top-10 per game finishes.

Dany Heatley. 6 top-10 finishes and 5 top-10 per game finishes.

Jarome Iginla. 4 top-10 finishes and 5 top-10 per game finishes.

Corey Perry. 5 top-10 finishes and 4 top-10 per game finishes.

Rick Nash. 4 top-10 Finishes and 5 top-10 GPG finishes.

Marian Gaborik. 3 top-10 finishes and 5 top-10 per game finishes.

Marian Hossa. 4 top-10 finishes and 4 top-10 per game finishes.

I don't know. I think Crosby in a vacuum might be the best goal-scorer after the OV/Stammer/Kovy trifecta. But he's lacking in actual performances and his per game finishes aren't that great either.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Crosby needs to stay healthy and continue producing at his level..honestly all of the injuries might have prevented him from reaching that status already.

 

[daver]

That's based only on per-game basis over Crosby's career. Now, I'm not saying he's not great goal-scorer and in a vacuum he might even be somewhere in the top-5 from the start of his career. But a player who has one top-5 finish and two top-5 per game seasons in his career can't by default be the 3rd-5th best goal-scorer of his era.

Crosby is 3rd in GPG among active players. Only behind Stammer and Ovechkin. But I'm having hard time slotting him as the 3rd best goal-scorer of this era.

Stamkos, Ovechkin and Kovy are ahead. I don't think that's even debatable.

Sidney Crosby. 3 top-10 finishes and 3 top-10 per game finishes.

Corey Perry. 5 top-10 finishes and 4 top-10 per game finishes.

Rick Nash. 4 top-10 Finishes and 5 top-10 GPG finishes.

Marian Gaborik. 3 top-10 finishes and 5 top-10 per game finishes.

Marian Hossa. 4 top-10 finishes and 4 top-10 per game finishes.

I don't know. I think Crosby in a vacuum might be the best goal-scorer after the OV/Stammer/Kovy trifecta. But he's lacking in actual performances and his per game finishes aren't that great either.

It's based on him having the 3rd most goals since 2005/06 and being 4th in GPG over that time period.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...meType=2&sort=goals,assists&aggregate=1&pos=S

He is also arguably the top playoff goalscorer over his career. He has the highest goal total in 20 years and is tied for most overall since his playoff career started in 2006/07.

 

[daver]

He may have the best chance of his career this year to sweep everything. Art, Hart, Lindsay, Cup and Smythe. I think that would put him on pace for #5.

 

[Plural]

It's based on him having the 3rd most goals since 2005/06 and being 4th in GPG over that time period.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...meType=2&sort=goals,assists&aggregate=1&pos=S

He is also arguably the top playoff goalscorer over his career. He has the highest goal total in 20 years and is tied for most overall since his playoff career started in 2006/07.

But is this era defined strictly by Crosby's career? I mean, Kovy started out earlier but I consider him being Crosby's straight peer (for as long as he was in the NHL at least). I think when we try to define the greatness of players scoring efforts, we shouldn't use straight up career dates. It's more fruitful to observe players separately and try to define how they did during their careers.

You can probably make a pretty decent argument that Crosby has been the 3rd most consistent goal-scorer during his career. But it puts other players in disadvantage, since you are picking Crosby's career to compare others to.

That said, I don't think he's 3rd even inside his own career. But he's possibly among the top-5.

I think your wording went overboard. Crosby has not established himself as the 3rd-5th best goal-scorer of this era. Not by a long-shot. I'd argue that he's not even top-5 when we take this era in to consideration. Unless you want to define this era to have started in 2005. But it makes no sense, since it puts a large amount of players who should belong out of the discussion.

 

[daver]

But is this era defined strictly by Crosby's career? I mean, Kovy started out earlier but I consider him being Crosby's straight peer (for as long as he was in the NHL at least). I think when we try to define the greatness of players scoring efforts, we shouldn't use straight up career dates. It's more fruitful to observe players separately and try to define how they did during their careers.

You can probably make a pretty decent argument that Crosby has been the 3rd most consistent goal-scorer during his career. But it puts other players in disadvantage, since you are picking Crosby's career to compare others to.

That said, I don't think he's 3rd even inside his own career. But he's possibly among the top-5.

I think your wording went overboard. Crosby has not established himself as the 3rd-5th best goal-scorer of this era. Not by a long-shot. I'd argue that he's not even top-5 when we take this era in to consideration. Unless you want to define this era to have started in 2005. But it makes no sense, since it puts a large amount of players who should belong out of the discussion.

Let's just stick with I don't think Crosby has to prove much as a goalscorer. He has enough on his resume to establish him as a very good goalscorer.

And his goal totals vs. OV's total will not have any relevance in establishing his place all-time.

 

[joplin]

Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Hasek

Lemieux is not no. 1 all time and never will be. He hasn't won enough to be the GOAT. Even himself has stated that crosby is better than he ever was

 

[Plural]

Let's just stick with I don't think Crosby has to prove much as a goalscorer. He has enough on his resume to establish him as a very good goalscorer.

And his goal totals vs. OV's total will not have any relevance in establishing his place all-time.

That I can agree with. He's not top-3 goalscorer of his era, that much is not even debatable. But he's a great goal-scorer nevertheless.

 

[daver]

That I can agree with. He's not top-3 goalscorer of his era, that much is not even debatable. But he's a great goal-scorer nevertheless.

I said Top 3 -5. Top 5 is very debatable.

He was 5th in goals, 4th in GPG (among the Top Ten) from 2005-2010. During that same time, he was 4th in goals, 2nd in GPG (among the Top Ten), had the highest goal total in 20 years, and is the only player from the regular season list to be in the Top 5 playoff scorers.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Lemieux is not no. 1 all time and never will be. He hasn't won enough to be the GOAT. Even himself has stated that crosby is better than he ever was

If you think Crosby is better than Lemieux, you're out to lunch.

 

[Plural]

I said Top 3 -5. Top 5 is very debatable.

Yes, you did. And it's not debatable that he is top-3. OV, Stamkos and Kovy are all ahead. I'd go as far and say Heatley and Perry are also ahead. He's probably not top-5. 100% is not top-3.

Here's a direct quote from you:

He has already established himself as a Top 3-5 goalscorer of his era

which is pretty much BS. Don't understand why you just won't say that you were wrong and move on. Crosby is a great goal-scorer. His going to be remembered as an offensive powerhouse, not only playmaker or goal-scorer. Just a strong all-around offensive player. With a historically good backhand shot.

 

[BraveCanadian]

If you think Crosby is better than Lemieux, you're out to lunch.

You have to keep in mind their perspective that a) Crosby is younger and plays now, and b) the NHL today is full of bionic superheroes.

But yeah, Crosby isn't even close to Lemieux.

 

[joplin]

If you think Crosby is better than Lemieux, you're out to lunch.

I don't. Just saying that putting Lemieux over someone like Gretzky is ridiculous

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Hasek

Just No!

Hasek? really?

The real top five that shouldn't be disputed:

1) Gretzky
2) Orr
3) Lemieux
.
4) Jagr
4) Howe

I know, I'm disputing 4-5

It's so very close for me.

 

[daver]

Yes, you did. And it's not debatable that he is top-3. OV, Stamkos and Kovy are all ahead. I'd go as far and say Heatley and Perry are also ahead. He's probably not top-5. 100% is not top-3.

He has more career goals (in almost 100 less games) and a higher career GPG than Perry and they started their careers at the same time. And Crosby indisputably had a lot less support in his goalscoring efforts than Perry has. Heatley is debatable once playoffs and linemates are factored in. Their peak goalscoring is very close.

Let's agree on Top 5 and move on. Top 3-5 is hardly BS when the stats put him very close to #3.

 

[bobholly39]

He has already established himself as a Top 3-5 goalscorer of his era so it really is not a weak part of his resume. If Crosby gets to a point where he is being considered for the #5 position, IMO, whether he closes the goals gap between him and OV will be somewhat irrelevant; he likely will already have left OV far behind.

I wasn't talking about Crosby closing in on OV as a goal-scorer from a career perspective. I was saying as a favorite for the Rocket Richard in 2016-2017.

Ovechkin is a very strong favorite for Rocket this year. I didn't want to make it seem like im undermining him by suggesting that Crosby could easily top him this year "if he tries" - which i suppose is kind of what i'm doing now.

But my point was that a Rocket this year might count for even more than just a Ross, since it's something out of the norm for Crosby.

From a career perspective - Crosby is far behind Ovechkin as a goal scorer, and isn't making up ground any time soon. Nor does he have to, I agree.

 

[bobholly39]

But is this era defined strictly by Crosby's career? I mean, Kovy started out earlier but I consider him being Crosby's straight peer (for as long as he was in the NHL at least). I think when we try to define the greatness of players scoring efforts, we shouldn't use straight up career dates. It's more fruitful to observe players separately and try to define how they did during their careers.

You can probably make a pretty decent argument that Crosby has been the 3rd most consistent goal-scorer during his career. But it puts other players in disadvantage, since you are picking Crosby's career to compare others to.

That said, I don't think he's 3rd even inside his own career. But he's possibly among the top-5.

I think your wording went overboard. Crosby has not established himself as the 3rd-5th best goal-scorer of this era. Not by a long-shot. I'd argue that he's not even top-5 when we take this era in to consideration. Unless you want to define this era to have started in 2005. But it makes no sense, since it puts a large amount of players who should belong out of the discussion.

I love the bolded part. I get so frustrated when people don't consider this.

Comparisons on HF are all over the map, with posters looking at a set amount of years and saying "hey - look at player X, he scored more points/goals than anyone in this stretch, so he's the best of era". It doesn't work that way - not everyone starts their career the same year. This was happening a lot in comparisons between Beliveau and Howe for one, though i suppose that's a discussion for a different topic.

I agree with you though. Looking at most goals since 2005 is mis-leading - because it doesn't take into account goal-scorers who were in their prime/peak the years before.

Also - Gartner has "most goals" in a stretch of years or close likely, because he was a compiler. But people fail to recognize him as a top goal scorer, and prefer players who had stronger "peak" goal-scoring years, or top goal-scoring finishes. So i'd argue that top 5 or top 10 finish in goal scoring might be more important than "compiling" career goal numbers. So even if Crosby has more goals than Perry in 100 less games as Daver suggests in another post - that doesn't necessarily make him a better goal scorer if Perry has many more top goal-scoring finishes.

So i'd agree with you that calling Crosby a top 3-5 goal scorer for his era might be a bit much. He's certainly top 10 - to say top 5 would take some more in-depth analysis and comparison.

 

[Plural]

He has more career goals (in almost 100 less games) and a higher career GPG than Perry and they started their careers at the same time. And Crosby indisputably had a lot less support in his goalscoring efforts than Perry has. Heatley is debatable once playoffs and linemates are factored in. Their peak goalscoring is very close.

Let's agree on Top 5 and move on. Top 3-5 is hardly BS when the stats put him very close to #3.

Top-3 is BS unless you can find a single piece of evidence putting Crosby ahead of Kovy. Let's see you do it. OR admit you were off base. This is getting ridiculous, cause I don't even disagree with you that much on the idea that Crosby might be top-5 goal-scorer from this era (although I would be inclined to look deeper on other scorers). But the fact that you specifically said that Crosby already established his place as top 3-5 is complete BS. Cause there is no reasonable argument to be made that Crosby was better goalscorer than Stamkos/OV/Kovy.

Top-4 is where the discussion starts and I'd be hard pressed to rank Crosby ahead of Heater.

 

[Plural]

I love the bolded part. I get so frustrated when people don't consider this.

Comparisons on HF are all over the map, with posters looking at a set amount of years and saying "hey - look at player X, he scored more points/goals than anyone in this stretch, so he's the best of era". It doesn't work that way - not everyone starts their career the same year. This was happening a lot in comparisons between Beliveau and Howe for one, though i suppose that's a discussion for a different topic.

I agree with you though. Looking at most goals since 2005 is mis-leading - because it doesn't take into account goal-scorers who were in their prime/peak the years before.

Also - Gartner has "most goals" in a stretch of years or close likely, because he was a compiler. But people fail to recognize him as a top goal scorer, and prefer players who had stronger "peak" goal-scoring years, or top goal-scoring finishes. So i'd argue that top 5 or top 10 finish in goal scoring might be more important than "compiling" career goal numbers. So even if Crosby has more goals than Perry in 100 less games as Daver suggests in another post - that doesn't necessarily make him a better goal scorer if Perry has many more top goal-scoring finishes.

So i'd agree with you that calling Crosby a top 3-5 goal scorer for his era might be a bit much. He's certainly top 10 - to say top 5 would take some more in-depth analysis and comparison.

Yeah, we are definitely on the same page here.

Good point on Gartner. If a player finishes consistently in the top-30/15 in goals (for example) for 10 seasons and another finishes top-10/5 for 5 seasons I would consider the player finishing higher in the standing as the better goal-scorer.

I don't know if Crosby is better or worse goal-scorer than say, Corey Perry. Perry has the goal and GPG finishes to be ranked ahead of Crosby and Crosby has the consistency to produce stellar to good numbers every year. Taking career numbers from 10-15 seasons and looking at them strictly like that makes little to no sense to me.

I think the argument with Crosby would start with Corey Perry. He's probably at the same level, albeit a different goal-scorer. Heatley was probably ahead and there's no argument for Crosby being better than Kovalchuk and Stamkos, let alone Ovechkin.

So, at best he's 5th "of this era so far" and in the contention for the spot with several other players.

 

[daver]

I don't know if Crosby is better or worse goal-scorer than say, Corey Perry. Perry has the goal and GPG finishes to be ranked ahead of Crosby and Crosby has the consistency to produce stellar to good numbers every year. Taking career numbers from 10-15 seasons and looking at them strictly like that makes little to no sense to me.

I think the argument with Crosby would start with Corey Perry. He's probably at the same level, albeit a different goal-scorer. Heatley was probably ahead and there's no argument for Crosby being better than Kovalchuk and Stamkos, let alone Ovechkin.

So, at best he's 5th "of this era so far" and in the contention for the spot with several other players.

I don't think there is an argument. Raw goals and GPG, in both the regular season and the playoffs, all point to Crosby, who doesn't have a Ryan Getztlaf feeding him full time.

This is more BS than putting Crosby at #3, where he actually sits in raw goals in his era.

 

[daver]

I agree with you though. Looking at most goals since 2005 is mis-leading - because it doesn't take into account goal-scorers who were in their prime/peak the years before.

So it makes sense to take into account seasons where Crosby didn't play? I don't have an issue with OV, Stamkos and Kovy. Put Heatley and Iggy with Crosby and you have your Top 6 if you want to say over the past 15 years.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I don't think there is an argument. Raw goals and GPG, in both the regular season and the playoffs, all point to Crosby, who doesn't have a Ryan Getztlaf feeding him full time.

This is more BS than putting Crosby at #3, where he actually sits in raw goals in his era.

Again, huge Crosby fan here, but it's it a bit much to define the entire era by his presence? I mean, add just two years onto the sample and he's all of a sudden as low as 7th in raw goals, 4th in GPG. Likewise, remove two years from the sample, and he's again as low as 7th in raw, 4th in GPG.

Maybe it's not entirely out of line to define an "era" for everyone in the NHL as "pre-Crosby" vs "post-Crosby", but that's fairly specifically how you have to frame it to catch goal scoring stats that peg him as arguably top 3 in that regard.

 

[SEALBound]

Crosby recently won an Emmy. How many players have THAT in their trophy case?