What age should kids be solo training by?

[Neutrinos]

Are you being serious right now?

You realize that a student is not the same someone in a professional career, right? Never mind being successful as a professional, they are not a professional period.

You’re literally comparing amateurs to professionals right now. It makes no sense at all. God help anyone who thinks they can get a Ph.D. at 60 to embark on a new career.

So, now you've jumped from 40 to 60...

Well, to your point, a 20-something pursuing their PhD isn't a professional either, and there's no guarantee they will be in their preferred field after graduation

But, yes, God help anyone who pursues a career as a professional athlete until they're 60, and then attempts to get their PhD

 

[puckpilot]

As someone who has actually gone back to school for a second go around and knows people who have tried to go back to school in their 40s, it is NOT an easy proposition.

I was decent student in highschool. Not great, but I got good marks in the things I was interested in. I tried collage right out of highschool and dropped because I didn't know what I really wanted. I took up a trade and at 27 decided to go back for my degree.

I wouldn't have been able to do it if it wasn't for my parents who helped with tuition. I also lived at home, so I didn't have to worry about putting a roof over my head and food on the table while I focused on school. After almost a decade away, very few of the courses I'd taken carried forward. I literally had to relearn high school English, chemistry, physics, and biology in the continuing education programs in order to just take tests that if I passed would allow me to start taking 1st year courses in those subjects and get back in to collage hitting the ground running. That was like 6 months of my life completely focused on schooling. No social life. No TV. Nothing but textbooks and the library. I didn't have kids or a significant other either. If I'd failed, it would have been another 6 months before I could try again.

And this was just for getting into collage not university. That was the next step. I did well. This was made possible because I didn't have to work. I had friends who had family and jobs on top of their schooling. Their focus was divided and their marks suffered. Some couldn't make it work and had to drop or put things on pause. Kid gets sick night before an exam, kid gets priority over studying.

I tried just holding down a part-time job, and it made things so much harder. No only did it take away from study time, It was huge distraction, especially when it seemed like I'd always be scheduled to work the night before a big exam. So after 6 months of it, I quit. And again, it wouldn't have been possible if wasn't for my parents. I was extremely lucky.

I didn't have to worry about a roof over my head or food on the table all the time I was in school. And that complete focus on school, no TV, no social life, nothing but text books and the library, that lasted for the whole time I was in school. Most of my days went like this, classes and then studying at the library till 10-11pm. If I had family responsibilities like kids or a significant other, yeah, that wouldn't have been possible, not to that degree. And a lot of those educational mountains I had to climb would have each turn into Mt. Everest.

I have a friend with kids, a significant other, and elderly parents to take care of. They tried going back to school. Even with the minimum course load of 3, they couldn't do it because of the demands of their family life.

Going back to school later in life isn't as easy as snapping your fingers and wanting it. There are financial, and most likely familial burdens that must be overcome. Tuition isn't cheap. Some people have to go into deep debt to make it happen. Because if you're working a low paying job, it's going to be a tall order to be able to save enough money to go back to school AND pay for your living expenses, especially if you have kids.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So, now you've jumped from 40 to 60...

Because you used a 63-year old as an example.

Well, to your point, a 20-something pursuing their PhD isn't a professional either, and there's no guarantee they will be in their preferred field after graduation

Right, but it’s also very very likely that this person will take their bachelor’s, master’s, and Ph.D. and have a long and lucrative career.

The statistics on that are quite clear, and I posted them upthread. Over the course of a 40 year career, the average bachelor’s will return $1,174,752, the master’s will return $990,019, and the Ph.D. will return $1,650,534. That clocks in at over $3.8 million of earnings, or about $95,000 per year of their career — because they started early. And tack on another million for professional degrees like law or medicine.

Waiting just 10 years to get that same education heavily reduces the ROI. Assuming retirement at 65, the person who starts toward a bachelor’s at 30 (meaning they likely don’t finish that Ph.D. until at least 40, unless they can somehow be a full time student at an age when that makes little sense) will be looking at something more like $1,600,000 in earnings. That’s a loss of about $2.2 million due to a simple 10 year delay.

I don’t need to tell you what this looks like if they get started even later, like the examples you’ve posted. Those people are inspirational, but getting a Ph.D. at that age is about personal achievement rather than money — it crosses into a negative 21.5% ROI somewhere around age 50.

Those are just the hard numbers. It is a plain matter of fact that getting started on education early is a major determinant of lifetime earnings. You’re playing around with millions of dollars here.

Now, I promise, the average ROI for investment in elite sports is far, far, far into the negatives. In all but a vanishingly few cases, the greatest ROI on an athletic career comes from the athletic scholarship that leads to holding a degree when the sports track hits a dead end. And for people without the intellectual or financial means to acquire a degree any other way, that’s a phenomenal life-changing option.

But for those who could get the education regardless of sports performance, it’s almost certain to be a catastrophic decision to focus on sports at the expense of academics.

But, yes, God help anyone who pursues a career as a professional athlete until they're 60, and then attempts to get their PhD

I’m not even sure what this means. There is 0% chance this guy is getting the degree with intent to become a professional historian. His situation is the equivalent of someone getting serious about golf at 60 because they’ve always wanted to see if they could be a scratch golfer if they really tried. It’s not remotely comparable to trying to make the PGA at that age.

 

[Neutrinos]

Because you used a 63-year old as an example.



Right, but it’s also very very likely that this person will take their bachelor’s, master’s, and Ph.D. and have a long and lucrative career.

The statistics on that are quite clear, and I posted them upthread. Over the course of a 40 year career, the average bachelor’s will return $1,174,752, the master’s will return $990,019, and the Ph.D. will return $1,650,534. That clocks in at over $3.8 million of earnings, or about $95,000 per year of their career — because they started early. And tack on another million for professional degrees like law or medicine.

Waiting just 10 years to get that same education heavily reduces the ROI. Assuming retirement at 65, the person who starts toward a bachelor’s at 30 (meaning they likely don’t finish that Ph.D. until at least 40, unless they can somehow be a full time student at an age when that makes little sense) will be looking at something more like $1,600,000 in earnings. That’s a loss of about $2.2 million due to a simple 10 year delay.

I don’t need to tell you what this looks like if they get started even later, like the examples you’ve posted. Those people are inspirational, but getting a Ph.D. at that age is about personal achievement rather than money — it crosses into a negative 21.5% ROI somewhere around age 50.

Those are just the hard numbers. It is a plain matter of fact that getting started on education early is a major determinant of lifetime earnings. You’re playing around with millions of dollars here.

Now, I promise, the average ROI for investment in elite sports is far, far, far into the negatives. In all but a vanishingly few cases, the greatest ROI on an athletic career comes from the athletic scholarship that leads to holding a degree when the sports track hits a dead end. And for people without the intellectual or financial means to acquire a degree any other way, that’s a phenomenal life-changing option.

But for those who could get the education regardless of sports performance, it’s almost certain to be a catastrophic decision to focus on sports at the expense of academics.




I’m not even sure what this means. There is 0% chance this guy is getting the degree with intent to become a professional historian. His situation is the equivalent of someone getting serious about golf at 60 because they’ve always wanted to see if they could be a scratch golfer if they really tried. It’s not remotely comparable to trying to make the PGA at that age.

I couldn't care less about the money...

Do you think I dreamt of being a professional baseball player from as far back as I can remember because I wanted to be rich?

It's about doing what you love in the only life you'll ever have

I'd rather have spent 20 years playing pro baseball for no pay, than 20 years making millions doing something else

 

[Neutrinos]

As someone who has actually gone back to school for a second go around and knows people who have tried to go back to school in their 40s, it is NOT an easy proposition.

I was decent student in highschool. Not great, but I got good marks in the things I was interested in. I tried collage right out of highschool and dropped because I didn't know what I really wanted. I took up a trade and at 27 decided to go back for my degree.

I wouldn't have been able to do it if it wasn't for my parents who helped with tuition. I also lived at home, so I didn't have to worry about putting a roof over my head and food on the table while I focused on school. After almost a decade away, very few of the courses I'd taken carried forward. I literally had to relearn high school English, chemistry, physics, and biology in the continuing education programs in order to just take tests that if I passed would allow me to start taking 1st year courses in those subjects and get back in to collage hitting the ground running. That was like 6 months of my life completely focused on schooling. No social life. No TV. Nothing but textbooks and the library. I didn't have kids or a significant other either. If I'd failed, it would have been another 6 months before I could try again.

And this was just for getting into collage not university. That was the next step. I did well. This was made possible because I didn't have to work. I had friends who had family and jobs on top of their schooling. Their focus was divided and their marks suffered. Some couldn't make it work and had to drop or put things on pause. Kid gets sick night before an exam, kid gets priority over studying.

I tried just holding down a part-time job, and it made things so much harder. No only did it take away from study time, It was huge distraction, especially when it seemed like I'd always be scheduled to work the night before a big exam. So after 6 months of it, I quit. And again, it wouldn't have been possible if wasn't for my parents. I was extremely lucky.

I didn't have to worry about a roof over my head or food on the table all the time I was in school. And that complete focus on school, no TV, no social life, nothing but text books and the library, that lasted for the whole time I was in school. Most of my days went like this, classes and then studying at the library till 10-11pm. If I had family responsibilities like kids or a significant other, yeah, that wouldn't have been possible, not to that degree. And a lot of those educational mountains I had to climb would have each turn into Mt. Everest.

I have a friend with kids, a significant other, and elderly parents to take care of. They tried going back to school. Even with the minimum course load of 3, they couldn't do it because of the demands of their family life.

Going back to school later in life isn't as easy as snapping your fingers and wanting it. There are financial, and most likely familial burdens that must be overcome. Tuition isn't cheap. Some people have to go into deep debt to make it happen. Because if you're working a low paying job, it's going to be a tall order to be able to save enough money to go back to school AND pay for your living expenses, especially if you have kids.

Going to school right out of high school isn't as easy as snapping your fingers and wanting it either

It's possible those 40-somethings you know would have found it just as challenging to pursue a degree in their 20's

And, sure, finances may be tighter if you have children, but this discussion isn't about money, it's about what's possible and what's not...

It's possible to successfully pursue an education later in life

It's not possible to successfully pursue a career as a pro athlete later in life

 

[tarheelhockey]

I couldn't care less about the money...

Do you think I dreamt of being a professional baseball player from as far back as I can remember because I wanted to be rich?

It's about doing what you love in the only life you'll ever have

I'd rather have spent 20 years playing pro baseball for no pay, than 20 years making millions doing something else

That’s fine and well, and as a grown man you can choose to take your life in whatever direction. You don’t have to care about money at all.

That said, guiding a kid down a path to miss out on millions of dollars has consequences. It’s not a neutral decision, even if you don’t give it any regard.

 

[Neutrinos]

That’s fine and well, and as a grown man you can choose to take your life in whatever direction. You don’t have to care about money at all.

That said, guiding a kid down a path to miss out on millions of dollars has consequences. It’s not a neutral decision, even if you don’t give it any regard.

No, I can't. That's what this discussion is about

My window closed. Dream over. No do-overs.

I would give my child every advantage possible so they don't have to suffer the same fate

 

[puckpilot]

Going to school right out of high school isn't as easy as snapping your fingers and wanting it either

It's possible those 40-somethings you know would have found it just as challenging to pursue a degree in their 20's

No it's not easy when you're in your 20's. I tried. And it was that much harder in my 30s, even with all the things I had going my way. And it was next to impossible with my friend in their 40s.

And, sure, finances may be tighter if you have children, but this discussion isn't about money, it's about what's possible and what's not...

It's possible to successfully pursue an education later in life

It's not possible to successfully pursue a career as a pro athlete later in life

Finances will be tight? Dude, were' talking about being able to have a roof over your head and being able to eat or not. It's easy to say it's not about the money. But when you're on the brink of getting put on on the street and your stomach is rumbling, yeah it's going to be about the money. Schooling isn't free. It should be, but it's not. Finding the money to do it isn't easy when all you have to worry about is yourself. And it's even harder when you have other mouths to feed.

And if you want to talk about possibilities, if I use up all my savings on lottery tickets, it's possible I'll win. But it would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

You keep trying to frame this as what's possible without taking into account the actual odds of success as a pro athlete and the support systems that need to be in place to be able to go back to school later in life. Not to mention the prudence of dropping out of school to chase winning the lottery, when you don't have to.

If you want to play the possibility game. It's possible to be a top notch student and become a elite athlete, too. Look at Scott Niedermayer. He won the CHL Scholastic Player of the Year and he became a hall of fame NHL player. And each year that award is giving out, it shows that people can be top notch athletes without sacrificing their education.

So, if it's possible to do well in school and become a pro athlete, why on gods green earth would you drop out of school? There's just so much training you can do in a day. Just because you spend all your time doing something doesn't mean all that time is quality. After a certain point there's diminishing returns. The body and mind need time to rest and process the new information and transform it into skills. Spending 24/7 doing one thing is a quick road to burn out.