Were Gretzky and Lemieux capable of being the best defensive forwards ever?

tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
16,824
2,337
Montreal, QC, Canada
Here's an interesting clip of a Penguins reporter essentially asking Gretzky -- after a 3 point night against Lemieux and an Oiler win -- how he gets away with cheating so much offensively and leaving the zone early even when the Oilers are protecting a one goal lead. Gretzky dresses it up a little, but he essentially says, "Well, we play a different style than other teams." Hahaha, gotta love it...



I think I remember maybe Bowman saying that maybe only 7 teams back then played any kind of a system. So it makes sense to let Gretz freelance and have someone cover.
 

TheEye

Registered User
Nov 4, 2018
191
132
Did Gretzky not play in the NHL after leaving Edmonton? He was only 27 when he left. More than half his career was after Edmonton.

Evaluating Gretzky's post-1991 career is akin to evaluating Orr's career in Chicago, and pretending that's as good as he was. It's unreasonable and you should recognize that. And you should also understand that +/- is not an individual stat. On the whole, the top teams have the most plus players and the worst teams have the most minus players. It's as simple as that.

Yes, I do like to use the plus/minus stat. But its not the metric to measure defensive play on its own. In this case, it seems helpful.

That's not how statistics work. You don't get to cherry-pick sections of data and utilize them against or in support of things. You have to use the data set as a whole. You don't claim that with +/- for Gretzky, because your argument completely falls apart when doing so.

And why do you think my argument is superficial and disingenuous?

See above. Furthermore, you rarely squander an opportunity to knock on Gretzky, because you regard him as a threat to your perception of Orr's supremacy. Based on your post history, that appears completely obvious from my perspective.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,201
17,552
Connecticut
Evaluating Gretzky's post-1991 career is akin to evaluating Orr's career in Chicago, and pretending that's as good as he was. It's unreasonable and you should recognize that. And you should also understand that +/- is not an individual stat. On the whole, the top teams have the most plus players and the worst teams have the most minus players. It's as simple as that.



That's not how statistics work. You don't get to cherry-pick sections of data and utilize them against or in support of things. You have to use the data set as a whole. You don't claim that with +/- for Gretzky, because your argument completely falls apart when doing so.



See above. Furthermore, you rarely squander an opportunity to knock on Gretzky, because you regard him as a threat to your perception of Orr's supremacy. Based on your post history, that appears completely obvious from my perspective.

You should know that I consider Howe a better player than Gretzky too. That's right, my perception of Gretzky is that he is only the 3rd greatest player ever.

Anyway, if you consider comparing Orr's 26 games with Chicago akin to Gretzky's 11 seasons after Edmonton, we should cease the discussion.

And by the way, Orr was +8 in those 26 games.
 

Cursed Lemon

Registered Bruiser
Nov 10, 2011
11,324
5,802
Dey-Twah, MI
I think these guys were as good as they were because they did what made sense in their heads. If you start telling them to do shit that goes against the grain of what their natural hockey sense is, they wouldn't do so hot.
 

TheEye

Registered User
Nov 4, 2018
191
132
You should know that I consider Howe a better player than Gretzky too. That's right, my perception of Gretzky is that he is only the 3rd greatest player ever.

Anyway, if you consider comparing Orr's 26 games with Chicago akin to Gretzky's 11 seasons after Edmonton, we should cease the discussion.

And by the way, Orr was +8 in those 26 games.

It doesn't matter to me in the slightest, whom you consider better. I merely wish you'd cease with fictitious narratives in an attempt to elevate certain players over others. If you prefer Orr and Howe more, you are certainly entitled to your opinions.

By the way, Orr was +8 in those 26 games during his age 28 and 30 seasons. Gretzky was +45 over 156 games during his age 28 and 30 seasons. If that's how we are evaluating players, Gretzky was clearly better over the same timeframe. Oh, and he also chipped in with 331 points in those two selected years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: plusandminus

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,201
17,552
Connecticut
It doesn't matter to me in the slightest, whom you consider better. I merely wish you'd cease with fictitious narratives in an attempt to elevate certain players over others. If you prefer Orr and Howe more, you are certainly entitled to your opinions.

By the way, Orr was +8 in those 26 games during his age 28 and 30 seasons. Gretzky was +45 over 156 games during his age 28 and 30 seasons. If that's how we are evaluating players, Gretzky was clearly better over the same timeframe. Oh, and he also chipped in with 331 points in those two selected years.

What fictitious narratives? I'm just bringing the facts.

Your narrative here is utterly ridiculous. Comparing prime Gretzky to one legged Orr because of there age. No one buys into that silly argument.

And yet, pro-rate Orr's numbers (26 x 6 = 156 games) (+8 x 6 = +48) and even with one good leg Orr's plus/minus is better.
 

TheEye

Registered User
Nov 4, 2018
191
132
What fictitious narratives? I'm just bringing the facts.

No, you are not. You are bringing half the facts. If you think Gretzky's +/- on the back half of his career was an indictment of his defensive liabilities, how do you explain his otherworldly +/- in the first half? If you can't explain both, half of an answer contains no value. In that respect, you are merely ignoring the positives and focusing on the negatives. This, in my opinion, reflects an unmistakable indication of bias.

And yet, pro-rate Orr's numbers (26 x 6 = 156 games) (+8 x 6 = +48) and even with one good leg Orr's plus/minus is better.

Well, guessing about what might have been and what actually happened reflects a significant incompatibility. Gretzky was +45 in those two seasons, and Orr was +8. That's a fact. The +48 number is fiction. Also, through their age 30 seasons, Gretzky was +606 and Orr was +574. That's equally a fact.

When delving into the realm of fantasy, I'm sure Gretzky's +/- would have been higher if he were provided the advantage of Orr's circumstance. If the mid-80s Oilers were beating up on a plethora of expansion teams, I'm willing to bet Gretzky's per game rates for +/- would be higher. Due to the nature of deployment for defensemen, Orr was likely padding his +/- by logging additional ice time against weaker players. I'd also be very interested in seeing Orr's per game rates with all those expansion teams removed. It's likely somewhat less flattering.

Gretzky and Orr are very comparable in +/- rates at their peak. That said, does anyone genuinely believe Gretzky is in the same universe defensively when compared to Orr? That alone should indicate +/- is an exceedingly limited statistic when considering defensive acumen. In point of fact, it's effectively useless.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,201
17,552
Connecticut
No, you are not. You are bringing half the facts. If you think Gretzky's +/- on the back half of his career was an indictment of his defensive liabilities, how do you explain his otherworldly +/- in the first half? If you can't explain both, half of an answer contains no value. In that respect, you are merely ignoring the positives and focusing on the negatives. This, in my opinion, reflects an unmistakable indication of bias.



Well, guessing about what might have been and what actually happened reflects a significant incompatibility. Gretzky was +45 in those two seasons, and Orr was +8. That's a fact. The +48 number is fiction. Also, through their age 30 seasons, Gretzky was +606 and Orr was +574. That's equally a fact.

When delving into the realm of fantasy, I'm sure Gretzky's +/- would have been higher if he were provided the advantage of Orr's circumstance. If the mid-80s Oilers were beating up on a plethora of expansion teams, I'm willing to bet Gretzky's per game rates for +/- would be higher. Due to the nature of deployment for defensemen, Orr was likely padding his +/- by logging additional ice time against weaker players. I'd also be very interested in seeing Orr's per game rates with all those expansion teams removed. It's likely somewhat less flattering.

Gretzky and Orr are very comparable in +/- rates at their peak. That said, does anyone genuinely believe Gretzky is in the same universe defensively when compared to Orr? That alone should indicate +/- is an exceedingly limited statistic when considering defensive acumen. In point of fact, it's effectively useless.

You seem to be very biased towards Gretzky.

Just my opinion.
 

TheEye

Registered User
Nov 4, 2018
191
132
You seem to be very biased towards Gretzky.

Just my opinion.

In my opinion, if someone believes Orr is the greatest of all-time, I believe that is completely reasonable. Ditto for Gretzky. It's not black and white.

I clearly don't appreciate the fallacious narratives and negativity you continually direct towards Gretzky. It's unhelpful and it is constant. You rarely pass on a chance when you feel capable of knocking him down a peg or two. It comes across as defensiveness in an attempt to support Orr, because you're troubled the consensus is that he's 'lesser'. It isn't reflective of impartiality, and when one leans into their biases the truth becomes obscured.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,201
17,552
Connecticut
In my opinion, if someone believes Orr is the greatest of all-time, I believe that is completely reasonable. Ditto for Gretzky. It's not black and white.

I clearly don't appreciate the fallacious narratives and negativity you continually direct towards Gretzky. It's unhelpful and it is constant. You rarely pass on a chance when you feel capable of knocking him down a peg or two. It comes across as defensiveness in an attempt to support Orr, because you're troubled the consensus is that he's 'lesser'. It isn't reflective of impartiality, and when one leans into their biases the truth becomes obscured.

Psychology?

I do agree with the bolded part, though I may not have used the term truth.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,653
51,099
No way.

Stevie Y had GRIT. True grit.

That is something Mario lacked. To say Lemieux had grit is to demean the word and ignore his whining and getting owned by a 5'11 Lithuanian dman and a big-mouth goon forward, demanding his team acquire them because he couldn't tolerate their pestering.

& ignore his whole quitting the league because he didn't like the rules.

I would say that a guy who fought off numerous back injuries and came back in a year when he had cancer to win a scoring title has a fair share of grit.

Also, good for Lemieux for walking away from the game. Fair to say the NHL was not taking proper care of its greatest assets, when that dead puck era brand of hockey basically ruined so many superstars of that era.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barbu

Reindl87

Registered User
May 18, 2012
648
293
As skilled and gifted Lemieux was, he was one lazy ass baby that lacked work ethic. So given his mentality, there is zero chance he could haben been an elite defensive player.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,653
51,099
As skilled and gifted Lemieux was, he was one lazy ass baby that lacked work ethic. So given his mentality, there is zero chance he could haben been an elite defensive player.

Sort of like saying Michelangelo was too much of a diva to be a serious house painter.

Safe to say a guy scoring at a 1.88 PPG pace over the course of his career doesn’t need to worry too much about the offense anyone else is going to bring.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

Registered User
May 9, 2018
1,401
651
Gladstone, Australia
IMO Gretzky wasnt thaaaat bad defensively to begin with, right?

Lets play a game here, can anyone post a clip of a goal against prime Gretzkys team where Gretz was the player most at fault for the goal?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->